Justification for Dany’s Invasion of Westeros

[Universal Sword Donor]

1. Wrong. Barristan knew Aerys since he was young and he observed his descent into madness closely. He also watched Viserys as a boy and saw that he showed similar characteristics with young Aerys. He was not wrong.

2. Robert himself punished the Tyrells and the Martells for siding with the crown, in case you have not noticed.

3. And what makes you say that multiple people will not vye for control if Aegon or Viserys was made the king? Tywin and Jon Arryn would definitely do that. Martells and Tyrells too.

How did Robert punish the Tyrells or Martells?

[JonSnow4President]

How did Robert punish the Tyrells or Martells?

He didn't invite them to the party, duh!!

[Mithras]

How did Robert punish the Tyrells or Martells?

They were excluded from powerful offices and chairs. Robert wed his brother and at that time heir to the Florents, who happen to be the most vocal group about their better blood claims to Highgarden than the Tyrells. Robert rewarded the murderers of Elia and her kids which was a serious offense to the Martells. Robert also borrowed a lot of gold from the Tyrells for his expenses. It is clear that the Tyrells are not going to get that gold back.

[Slaver's Dread]

1st and 3rd point.

Robert had a funny way of rewarding the Florents considering what he did on Stannis' marriage bed the day of the wedding.

Robert borrowed gold from everyone. He borrowed daughters, sisters, and wives as well.

[RoamingRonin]

Aerys complained from the filth of the KL so much as to wish for a new city across the Blackwater Bay. In the end, he decided to cleanse the city with wildfire.

You miss the point as you so often do.

You know who else plotted to build a new castle across the bay and who also had a love for wild fire? Cersei. That, my friend, is the parallel the world book was making. Cersei/Aerys. Not Aerys/Dany. I dont know how many times I have to say this.

Westeros is in ruins. It is full of treacherous lords, liars and pretenders. Let's not forget the Others. Daenerys is coming to cleanse the realm of these threats... Not just the realm but the whole world.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

She and Stannis are exactly the same in this regard, a sense of righteouness, a belief they would be good at it, a sense of duty which is a cover up for their ambition. Difference is, Stannis so far seems to be quite good at what he does, Dany is falling apart. Unfortunately Dany has those WMDs to paper over those cracks in leadership with fear. Stannis meanwhile is under resourced. I think right now with Cersei, Stannis and Dany we are seeing leadership in action, the strengths and weaknesses compared and contrasted. None of the 3 will end the series as the main leader.

[NorthGirl]

Might makes right

That and it's all about PR. Truth of the matter is, anyone with enough of a following and an army can declare themselves ruler of somewhere. Dany likes to tell herself her little fairytales but truth of the matter is, when she gets to Westeros, it will be as a conqueror/invader. Denying that Robert was right in toppling the unjust rule of that current Targ and then ending their reign so as to not be threatened by the next generation is also to say that Aegon I had no business conquering the 7K. Which then makes her claim bogus. Either she's going to read a flipping book or she's going to go around pissing people off acting like she's righteous when she's associated with a mad tyrant. At least fAegon is associated with Rhaegar, the good prince and could've been a great king (YMMV but that is the public opinion on both sides of RR). She is Aerys' daughter who is coming with ex slaves and shady (for the westerosi) people. How it iow she helps during ts written in the History book completely depends on how she handles the situation and how she helps during the Other-pocalypse.

[Nihlus]

At first, it's because she thinks everyone wants her to be queen. That lasts all of half a book.

After, it's because she wants that power despite acknowledging that she's not a great ruler, and fuck all the innocents who will be hurt in the process. See: Jorah telling her that the Dothraki will sell boys into sex slavery to fund her, followed by her urging Drogo to go slaving for money. See also: Jorah explicitly pointing out to her that the people don't care if she rules as long as they're left alone (which they won't be if she brings more war), and Dany disregarding this.

[The silver dragon]

the same right that any other of those lordlings/ lord paramount's use to claim lordship.

[Mithras]

You miss the point as you so often do.

You know who else plotted to build a new castle across the bay and who also had a love for wild fire? Cersei. That, my friend, is the parallel the world book was making. Cersei/Aerys. Not Aerys/Dany. I dont know how many times I have to say this.

Westeros is in ruins. It is full of treacherous lords, liars and pretenders. Let's not forget the Others. Daenerys is coming to cleanse the realm of these threats... Not just the realm but the whole world.

Joffrey was showing the signs of Aerys too. Cersei is not the only one who gets all the Aerysian features. So, Dany might have some of her own.

The Dany you wish for is the wet dream of the lunatic Rhlorr worshippers.

[Mithras]

1st and 3rd point.

Robert had a funny way of rewarding the Florents considering what he did on Stannis' marriage bed the day of the wedding.

Robert borrowed gold from everyone. He borrowed daughters, sisters, and wives as well.

Most Lords see it as a blessing to have a bastard from a king.

[Amris]

While my sympathy lies with UnmaskedLurker's statement that Robert may have had a right to overthrow Aerys but not to take the throne for himself I nevertheless half-disagree.

On the overthrow we all agree I think: Aerys forced Robert's hand and left him practically no choice but to rebel.

Now as to who has a right to succeed Aerys I would love to say that a council should have been called and a leader elected (I do not know if that's what UnmaskedLurker is thinking). Anyway I agree that that would have felt more legitimate than Robert just claiming the throne.

BUT

an election would have taken time, would have caused all kinds of political infighting and most likely have prolonged the time of unheaval and chaos. Reinstating new leadership fast was a means to calm things down and prevent the risk of more killing. And its not like the 7Kingdoms were or are a democracy to begin with. Modern standards do not apply. They were a medieval monarchy and expected to get a new king. Robert was the victor and it made some sense that the victor claimed the throne and not someone else entirely.

Also do not forget that Robert did not want the throne even. But Ned and Jon Arryn made him take it because they did not want it either.

All three of them knew that SOMEone had to do the job and Robert was the one who drew the short stick.

Giving it back to Viserys was obviously impossible.

I mean sure - the victors themselves did not really want to rule but they were stuck with the throne now and had a duty to fix the mess. One can not really fault them for not giving it to a boy whose father and elder brother they had just killed, not to mention the massacre of Elia and her children. Were they supposed to believe the Targs back on the throne would just forget these little faux-pas?

No, a new dynasty was the only way and Robert really had no choice in my opinion.

***

Dany is another matter entirely.

Much as I love her character I have to agree with Mithras that objectively she does not have a right to start a war of conquest of Westeros.

She does NOT have Robert's (real) excuses for 1) going to war and 2) then taking the throne. She DOES have a choice where he didn't. No one is forcing her hand. In fact her duty lies in Meereen now, which is a mess needed to get fixed and not in Westeros.

So if she ends up killing tons of people on her way to the throne that's entirely on her conscience.

I am a Dany fan nevertheless.

If she ends up invading and causing mayhem I will probably keep loving her character. But I won't think its right. Unless GRRM comes up with something that justifies it in the end - like the Others invasion or so.

Who in her right mind wants to sit on a heap of sharp blades anyway, continually surrounded by people who are eternally discontent, unthankful and always demanding more? Go back to Dragonstone with your dragons and let all those fools sort out their messes themselves. That would be my advice to her.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Dany is another matter entirely.

Much as I love her character I have to agree with Mithras that objectively she does not have a right to start a war of conquest of Westeros.

She does NOT have Robert's (real) excuses for 1) going to war and 2) then taking the throne. She DOES have a choice where he didn't. No one is forcing her hand. In fact her duty lies in Meereen now, which is a mess needed to get fixed and not in Westeros.

They sent an assassin after her. As far as she knows, they're still trying to off her, so she does have the same excuses as Robert.

[Mithras]

They sent an assassin after her. As far as she knows, they're still trying to off her, so she does have the same excuses as Robert.

The very reason they sent the assassin was that she was sold in return of a Dothraki horde to invade the Realm. And she was carrying a child which suggests that her descendants would likely haunt the Realm like the Blackfyres. Only at this point Robert sent the assassin.

Of course, I would not expect this level of self-reflectivity from Dany. After all, she brazenly decreed that during the Sack of Meereen, the woman who left her house for the fear of her life abandoned her right to own it.

[Hodor the Articulate]

The very reason they sent the assassin was that she was sold in return of a Dothraki horde to invade the Realm. And she was carrying a child which suggests that her descendants would likely haunt the Realm like the Blackfyres. Only at this point Robert sent the assassin.

Of course, I would not expect this level of self-reflectivity from Dany. After all, she brazenly decreed that during the Sack of Meereen, the woman who left her house for the fear of her life abandoned her right to own it.

Oh, of course, how silly of Dany to think she would still be in danger. I mean, it's not like her very existence is a potential threat to the current reign!

[Mithras]

Oh, of course, how silly of Dany to think she would still be in danger. I mean, it's not like her very existence is a potential threat to the current reign!

You cannot pretend like Dany was sitting and doing nothing. Her marriage was about the invasion of Westeros. Even if we absolve her up to the death of Viserys, after that she did her best to persuade Drogo to the invasion of Westeros. And there was no assassin sent during this time.

If she was married to a merchant, she would not be a threat. No one would care her or her descendants, just like no one cares the Gulltown Arryns.

But no. She was married to a khal with a big army and part of the deal was to give her brother a Dorhraki army to invade Westeros.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Since when a mad bloodthirsty person needs a justification in order to do something? In the Targfamily the only justification that there is, is personal glory, vanity and FFFIIIIRRRREE UUUUNNNDDDDD BLOUUUUUUUDDD.

[Universal Sword Donor]

They were excluded from powerful offices and chairs. Robert wed his brother and at that time heir to the Florents, who happen to be the most vocal group about their better blood claims to Highgarden than the Tyrells. Robert rewarded the murderers of Elia and her kids which was a serious offense to the Martells. Robert also borrowed a lot of gold from the Tyrells for his expenses. It is clear that the Tyrells are not going to get that gold back.

So the status quo pretty much remained in place?

1) No Tyrells held high office under the mad king and continued to *not* do so under Robert.

2) The Tyrells were one of *many* he borrowed from:

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

So unless you're going to claim Robert is also punishing the IB, The Tyroshi, and the Faith, that argument holds little or no water. He'd not exactly been paying back the Lannisters either.

3) Dorne - this one is a bit of both. Yes what happened to Elia and her children was awful. It's not much worse than what happened to all the places that were sacked either. Frankly the sack of KL was a far worse crime than Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon (imo). It was also done under the purview of war. Robert could have done much to placate Dorne but they also were plotting rebellion until Arryn stopped it. Tit for tat?

[Lord Lannister]

Her justification boils down to "my daddy was king and I deserve to be queen." It's really no more complicated than that, nevermind that Aerys was arguably the worst monarch in the history of Westeros.

[Mithras]

So the status quo pretty much remained in place?

1) No Tyrells held high office under the mad king and continued to *not* do so under Robert.

2) The Tyrells were one of *many* he borrowed from:

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

So unless you're going to claim Robert is also punishing the IB, The Tyroshi, and the Faith, that argument holds little or no water. He'd not exactly been paying back the Lannisters either.

3) Dorne - this one is a bit of both. Yes what happened to Elia and her children was awful. It's not much worse than what happened to all the places that were sacked either. Frankly the sack of KL was a far worse crime than Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon (imo). It was also done under the purview of war. Robert could have done much to placate Dorne but they also were plotting rebellion until Arryn stopped it. Tit for tat?

1) We do not know much about Robert's tax policies but it can be expected with good reason that the Reach was punished by being forced to pay more taxes

Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly, Lady Oakheart, Lord Hightower, and other worthies not present. Lord Redwyne asked only for thirty years’ remission of the taxes that Littlefinger and his wine factors had levied on certain of the Arbor’s finest vintages.

This special tax should be issued during Robert's reign because it was Littlefinger who was behind it.

2) That is my point. The IB and probably the Tyrosh cartells too can be expected to retaliate severely if the IT does not repay the debts. But that is not an option for the Tyrells and the Lannisters. That is why they will never get that gold back.