R+L=J v.134

[WeaselPie]

How about you read the entire discussion before jumping in and accusing me of saying things I never said.

but you just said that

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I semi-agree. I think it will, as sj4iy says, shake him up. I just suspect that he'll eventually decide that it changes nothing, and it will if anything reinforce his feeling of Ned as his true father.

Jon struggles with his bastardy as being something that sets him apart, and continually gets in the way of his personal sense of Stark-ness. He thinks of himself as Lord of Winterfell, and then feels guilty about it. Targaryens are distant to him, Starks important. He will be more interested in being Lyanna's son than Rhaegar's, and if they did indeed get married, the biggest piece of news to him will be not being a bastard after all. I suspect he'll be very resentful towards Ned at first for the lies, but when he has time to understand the situation he'll love and respect Ned all the more for the sacrifices he made for him, and feel all the more Stark for it.

If Jon ends up on the throne of the 7k, I would expect it to be because of his Stark rather than Targaryen inheritance -- if not in the minds of those accepting him as king, then in his own mind. Leaving the wall and the North to become the new Targ king has nothing to do with Jon's journey thus far. On the other hand if the North falls (which I consider a distinct possibility) I could easily see him taking advantage of his Targ heritage to be able to claim the throne and lead his people south of the Neck, just as Mance lead his south of the wall.

I hear you... I just see so much of the North in Jon it´s going to be a very disconnected feeling if he gets the IT, and again i don´t want Jon´s fate to be the same as Robert´s... he was alot happier before getting the crown, and i don´t believe Jon would be happier also

[sj4iy]

We agree that Jon doesn´t care about power nor will he, but young Robert never wanted power either, and i don´t wish Jon the same fate as Robert´s...

Neither do I, but I don't think Jon will get much choice in the matter. He will do his duty, whatever it is at the time.

But again, 'perhaps I'll become king one day after the realm is saved' isn't going to impact how he absorbs the news that Rhaegar and Lyanna were his parents.

[Alia of the knife]

There could be kings hidden under this snow for all I know.

I'd kill to see a buttercup. I had to do the butt-scoot boogie down my front stairs and practically crawled across the street.

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

I'd kill to see a buttercup. I had to do the butt-scoot boogie down my front stairs and practically crawled across the street.

HAR!

[Teal'c]

There could be kings hidden under this snow for all I know.

There could be King Kong hidden under all this snow we have in Boston. Another six inches today is child's play with what we've had so far. Winter has COME!

[markg171]

The discussion here seems to be meandering a little, so let's get back on topic?

When Theon dreams of the dead in ACOK, he sees Lyanna

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Now interestingly, Lyanna is described to be "spattered with gore". This intrigued me as everyone here seems positive that Lyanna's bed of blood came from childbirth, so I checked through the novels, and the phrase "spattered with gore" is used exactly 3 times: Lyanna in Theon's dream, Balon Swann at the Blackwater, and Gregor Clegane in his duel with Oberyn

A man-at-arms grabbed the bridle of his horse and thrust at Tyrion’s face with a dagger. He knocked the blade aside and buried the axe in the nape of the man’s neck. As he was wresting it free, a blaze of white appeared at the edge of his vision. Tyrion turned, thinking to find Ser Mandon Moore beside him again, but this was a different white knight. Ser Balon Swann wore the same armor, but his horse trappings bore the battling black-and-white swans of his House. He’s more a spotted knight than a white one, Tyrion thought inanely. Every bit of Ser Balon was spattered with gore and smudged by smoke. He raised his mace to point downriver. Bits of brain and bone clung to its head. “My lord, look.”

The stable was behind him. Spectators screamed and shoved at each other to get out of the way. One stumbled into Oberyn’s back. Ser Gregor hacked down with all his savage strength. The Red Viper threw himself sideways, rolling. The luckless stableboy behind him was not so quick. As his arm rose to protect his face, Gregor’s sword took it off between elbow and shoulder. “Shut UP!” the Mountain howled at the stableboy’s scream, and this time he swung the blade sideways, sending the top half of the lad’s head across the yard in a spray of blood and brains. Hundreds of spectators suddenly seemed to lose all interest in the guilt or innocence of Tyrion Lannister, judging by the way they pushed and shoved at each other to escape the yard.

But the Red Viper of Dorne was back on his feet, his long spear in hand. “Elia,” he called at Ser Gregor. “You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children. Now say her name.”

The Mountain whirled. Helm, shield, sword, surcoat; he was spattered with gore from head to heels. “You talk too much,” he grumbled. “You make my head hurt.”

Both Balon and Gregor are spattered with gore from having been in a battle and killing people. Seeing as this phrase is used rather exclusively in the novels, this would suggest that Lyanna was also involved in a battle.

Now also, it's never said in the novels that Lyanna was FOUND in a bed of blood.

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

What is known, is rather that at some point, she ended up in said bed and that that's where she died. Not that Ned ever found her there. Which means that the blood in the bed doesn't actually have to have come from something that occurred before Ned arrived, or from something that occurred in the bed. It can come from having been transferred to this bed.

So we have Lyanna in a bed of blood that most of you suggest means she gave birth as that's what you argue the phrase is used for, but we also have her spattered with gore, which is only used to describe someone who's been in battle.

[SFDanny]

Gore only means, in this context, blood especially clotted blood and tissue. Afterbirth has plenty of gore as the lining of the womb is shed. So, what Theon sees in his dream is fully consistent with childbirth.

[Ygritte]

That sounds like a good excuse to go do the necessary shoveling! "I am saving THE KING"

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Jon won't be king whether or not he becomes king?

That's not what was meant. At the moment when Jon finds out his parentage--if he does--he won't be king right then. After he finds out, there are a number of different ways his character arc could theoretically go. One possibility is he might become king, later. But he wouldn't have been king when he first found out.

[markg171]

Gore only means, in this context, blood especially clotted blood and tissue. Afterbirth has plenty of gore as the lining of the womb is shed. So, what Theon sees in his dream is fully consistent with childbirth.

Seems rather hypocritical to not apply equal standards to interpretation no?

If the interpretation of bed of blood means giving birth as that's how it's used in other situations in the novel, and spattered with gore is only used to describe people in battle, then why would we suddenly change the standard style of interpretation used to figure out the bed of blood reference, and not apply it to say that Lyanna must have also been involved in a battle seeing as she is described the same way as people who have been in battle are described?

You can't just say that something can only mean one thing because that's what it's used in other contexts throughout the novels, but not apply that same logic to another phrase.

[J. Stargaryen]

Lyanna's "gore" could well be at least a partial metaphor for the war that followed her abduction/elopement/whatever with Rhaegar. Also notice that she's wearing a white dress. I don't know about the rest of you, but that makes me think of a wedding dress. And then you have the crown of roses, which is connected to Rhaegar and Harrenhal. Decent bit of info in that vision.

ETA: Also, "spattered with gore" is a normal phrase in real life. One I've heard before. I can't say the same of "bed of blood/bloody bed." Is there anyone here who has?

[SFDanny]

Seems rather hypocritical to not apply equal standards to interpretation no?

If the interpretation of bed of blood means giving birth as that's how it's used in other situations in the novel, and spattered with gore is only used to describe people in battle, then why would we suddenly change the standard style of interpretation used to figure out the bed of blood reference, and not apply it to say that Lyanna must have also been involved in a battle seeing as she is described the same way as people who have been in battle are described?

You can't just say that something can only mean one thing because that's what it's used in other contexts throughout the novels, but not apply that same logic to another phrase.

Well, the phrases "bloody bed" and "bed of blood" are phrases Martin uses that might be interchangeable - one being explicitly used to describe childbirth and the other used specifically around Lyanna's death, and we often speculate that because of their similarities, combined with other clues, that Martin might be leaving hints about the nature of Lyanna's death. Gore, on the other hand, is simply a english word with the meaning I've stated given the context it is used in. It is not something that Martin made up, and it applies in both childbirth and in battles. I'm just saying that the use of the word doesn't indicate anything about which of the two is the case with Lyanna.

[markg171]

I should probably clarify: I'm not saying it's an either or situation here. Lyanna very well could have given birth causing the bloody bed, but the spattered with gore part could indicate that she also fought in a battle.

Because like I said, Lyanna wasn't actually found in a bed of blood. That's simply where she was when she was dying. The bed could have been bloodied before, without said blood actually being a part of the reason why she died. We simply don't know when the bed was bloodied, and when Lyanna came to be in that bed dying. They don't have to be one and the same.

So while she might have given birth, she doesn't necessarily have to have died from it. After all, Theon's dream is about the dead, but more importantly it also describes how the people died (Robert with guts out, Ned beheaded, Robb and his multiple wounds). And for Lyanna, she is spattered with gore, which is a description used from people who were in battle. So Lyanna still can have given birth, but this vision indicates to me that she died from a battle.

[IceFire125]

Who is more highborn? Fisherman's daughter, Wylla, Ashara or Lyanna? ^_^

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

--

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

**Ohhh GRRM, you're so sneaky! It was A Prince that won the tourney and marry the Knight of the Laughing Tree. :P

[WeaselPie]

The discussion here seems to be meandering a little, so let's get back on topic?

When Theon dreams of the dead in ACOK, he sees Lyanna

Now interestingly, Lyanna is described to be "spattered with gore". This intrigued me as everyone here seems positive that Lyanna's bed of blood came from childbirth, so I checked through the novels, and the phrase "spattered with gore" is used exactly 3 times: Lyanna in Theon's dream, Balon Swann at the Blackwater, and Gregor Clegane in his duel with Oberyn

Both Balon and Gregor are spattered with gore from having been in a battle and killing people. Seeing as this phrase is used rather exclusively in the novels, this would suggest that Lyanna was also involved in a battle.

Now also, it's never said in the novels that Lyanna was FOUND in a bed of blood.

What is known, is rather that at some point, she ended up in said bed and that that's where she died. Not that Ned ever found her there. Which means that the blood in the bed doesn't actually have to have come from something that occurred before Ned arrived, or from something that occurred in the bed. It can come from having been transferred to this bed.

So we have Lyanna in a bed of blood that most of you suggest means she gave birth as that's what you argue the phrase is used for, but we also have her spattered with gore, which is only used to describe someone who's been in battle.

I'm supporting this. "Gore" is actually used 8 times in the novels, and is associated with battle, death, wounds, baby Aegon's smashed head.. and Lyanna.

[corbon]

but you just said that

WeaselPie, with all due respect, your post #73 was doing nothing but activating a personal feud for the sake of it. It didn't add anything, you still haven't since in the followups, and you completely screwed up the premise anyway.

LSR threw in an unnecessary comment which he claims helps the discussion, but actually it derails it. Whatever he intended, adding in the comment about Jon not becoming king made it look like sj4iy was advocating that. Unfortunately thats a commonly held misbelief about the R+L=J theory, that it automatically includes that (when in fact most of the more experienced advocates do not actually hold that view.

Its effectively a second, secondary theory of its own (which isn't actually very popular). So injecting it into a conversation that wasn't actually related to it does (and did) have a derailing effect. Hence sj4iy first making it clear that she didn't hold the views accidentally implied by LSR and then pointing out that it wasn;t a relevant comment to the discussion (implying: why bring that up? please don't, its a de-railer).

The discussion here seems to be meandering a little, so let's get back on topic?

With reference to the recent discussion about Heresy, I've taken to spending more of my limited time there than here, because far to many of the regulars here misuse this thread as their personal message board.

Its not uncommon lately to read through 2-3 pages at a time averaging less than one post per page really on ASOIAF. Its a major turn off for me.

So while she might have given birth, she doesn't necessarily have to have died from it. After all, Theon's dream is about the dead, but more importantly it also describes how the people died (Robert with guts out, Ned beheaded, Robb and his multiple wounds). And for Lyanna, she is spattered with gore, which is a description used from people who were in battle. So Lyanna still can have given birth, but this vision indicates to me that she died from a battle.

Theon has experience with battle, but none of the bloody bed. He describes what he sees in terms he understands, nothing more, nothing less.

The prophet/visionary/witness is always an influence on the final material that comes out to us, even if the actual vision/whatever they 'saw' is completely independent of them.

[SFDanny]

I should probably clarify: I'm not saying it's an either or situation here. Lyanna very well could have given birth causing the bloody bed, but the spattered with gore part could indicate that she also fought in a battle.

Because like I said, Lyanna wasn't actually found in a bed of blood. That's simply where she was when she was dying. The bed could have been bloodied before, without said blood actually being a part of the reason why she died. We simply don't know when the bed was bloodied, and when Lyanna came to be in that bed dying. They don't have to be one and the same.

So while she might have given birth, she doesn't necessarily have to have died from it. After all, Theon's dream is about the dead, but more importantly it also describes how the people died (Robert with guts out, Ned beheaded, Robb and his multiple wounds). And for Lyanna, she is spattered with gore, which is a description used from people who were in battle. So Lyanna still can have given birth, but this vision indicates to me that she died from a battle.

There are two different things going on here. First the description of the "bed of blood" Lyanna dies in could be a phrase Martin uses to hint of childbirth, and second Theon's description of Lyanna in his dream/vision in which he uses the word "gore." Either could be consistent with childbirth death or death from battle inflicted wounds. My only problem with your point is that the use of the word "gore" gives us no indication one way or the other. I think your first post points that this use of "gore" somehow does point to battle wounds as the answer, and that is plainly wrong. Gore is consistent with either.

As to the first question of whether or not "bed of blood" is a hint left by the author, I think that is best answered in the context of not only the use of "bloody bed" to mean childbirth, but also by the myriad of other clues left that point to Lyanna having a child. Things like the many clues that point to a romantic relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, the Bael the Bard tale by Ygritte, the timing of when Jon shows up, and what the rumors are of his origins in different places, Lyanna's fever etc. etc. combine with the use of the phrase "bed of blood" to lead us in the direction of thinking Lyanna dies of complications of childbirth.

Hey, corbon! Great to see you post again in this thread. If I knew you were hanging out in the heretic threads I might have spent more time reading them. Always good to read your posts.

[Ser Creighton]

I won't say anything other than season 1 was great. Season 2...not so much. I like Davod Tennant, though. You must check this out:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yvwFufzb5_k

My current obsession is Fables, a comic series. Been needing something to pass the time until GoT, and I'm on issue #67 of 149 (so far). They are ending the series next month (wow, an author who ends things!), so I'm catching up just in time.

Also Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (now I'm on topic).

I am typing this in my gravely voice, it's an homage to the Tennant video. The ending of season one of Broadchurch was excellent and I am moving on to House of Cards season 3 which I have been saving. It's not enough episodes it won't wont last. Like you I need something to pass the time. You see my name is Ser Creighton and I am an ASOIAF addict and co-dependant on a forum of ice anf fire.

I started out as a recreational reader, sometimes just one or two chapters a day. But soon it became 1 or 2 boks a week, then I switched to videos, paradoies, audio books, interviews, apperances, musicals, even tribute videos. Around 2011 when show came out I started rewatching episodes, after the Imp slap I knew there was no going back. A few years back I discovered this place, I just wanted to hang out at first, see what people were saying, I swore I would never do a theory or make a profile. That didn't last long. I bottomed out in 2013 when I wrote the Corn Code, only a true addict could right something like that. Friends, family, loved ones, pets, work, none of it mattered as long as I could figure out who Martin was killing next, I was main lining.

Nobody at work knows, though someone I work with is a recreational show watcher. The fucking noob, what does he know about the series? It's so easy for him to slip in and out of the conversation. He once asked me if I watched the show, I told him I never heard of it. I have a badass rep I need to keep if anyone ever found out I main lined the series they would never let me live it down. Every season he talks about the fucking show, he sure Jon's mother Wylla will show up at some point. Jon's mother Wylla? Amature, read the fucking book hack. I post and browsse the forum all the time while he babbles on none the wiser. I shouldn't be using at work but I can't help myself, I am weak. I even have dreams about the series and fantasies, I imagine myself showing up to the wall as Jon lays injured, wide shot, dark, windy, snowing, the theme for the exorcist starts playing. There will be reckoning Bowen Marsh, there will be a reckoning.

I see these videos of people at Comic Con, and fan conventions, I want to go but I know it will destory me. It would be like throwing Julie Andrews into the Austrian mountains surrounded by children and asker her not to sing.

Dany a dragon a female Dragon

Jon a flake of falling Snow.

Needle a name she calls her sword

Ned he died so long ago

I can't fucking do it, it will be the end of me, I'll never come back the real world.

Last week I couldn't get on line, the fucking site wasn't working right, I started writing parodies ASOIAF National Geographic parody.

The north is a harsh land, the constant struggles for food and survival take center stage to the lives of it's peoples. To the far north we find the Wall an ancient barrier that stands between the lands of Westeros and the northern clans of the free folk. The wall is defended by an ancient pride of all males and led by one of it's youngest members, the people of the north call him Snow he is the Ice Dragon of the North. He is blood royalty in these lands.

But it is not the scavanging free folk that pose a true threat to the lands south of the Wall. But an older, more ancient enemy, the Others, the eternal enemy of the Nights Watch. After a long abscence from the lands of when they have returned with a vengence. This is not just a territorial fued, or a fight over food. This is a war of blood.

The Others have continued to stalk and kill small groups of the watch. These attacks and encroachments can no longer go unanswered. Snow will lead the small band out against this overwhelming enemy. This is not a competition for food, this is to once again to battle with there eternal enemies. Even young Valar Morghulis will join the hunt with her sword needle. Among the Valyrians Valar Morghulis means All men must die, she is fierce yong cub befitting of the name. Brave young Slayer moves in beside her he is one of the most accomplished Other killers in the Watch, and protective of the young female, he will not leave her side during this battle.

The watch has now encroached further and further into the ancient enemies territory, they are now hunting with the moon. But the Others are no fools and been expecting this, they have drawn them further and futher from the safety of the wall and now the trap is sprung. The northern clan has surrounded the watch, Snow has led a valiant charge into the center of there strength, it is a faint, he is attempting to distract the Others so Valar Morghulis and Slayer may attempt to break through the lines and escape to the south. But it is no good the enemy is to great and the numbers are not in the favor of the Watch Pride. Things look dire.

Frenzied cries for help have filter across to the lands to the south east, to the keen ears of the great Matriarch of the southern grass sea known among the people of the east as Dracarys, She who greets with fire. She is the dragon rider. A swift chase and a breath of fire and the Night's King is dead and the day belongs to the Watch.

It was not always easy for us to wittness these struggles for life. But at the end of it all, perhaps we came to know more about ourselves, and the struggles that rage within our own savage souls.

Do you see, the addiction destroys everything, it fills you and permeates your every pore, always looking and waiting for another fix. Ok I am done, oh ummmm Wylla is not Jon's mother Lyanna is, totally on topic. Now that the ASOIAFA support group meeting has come to an end I will fill the emptyness of my soul with donut, sanka if you don't want to be up late and Carnations Instant Coffe Cafe Ole and French Vanilla. And for those who have yet to take the first step and except R+L=J into there addiction and faith, there are sugar free gummi bears, and Diet Rite green apple & Rasberry cordial which was found in the back of an abandoned Woolworths. Feel free to eat and drink as much as you like.

[WeaselPie]

WeaselPie, with all due respect, your post #73 was doing nothing but activating a personal feud for the sake of it. It didn't add anything, you still haven't since in the followups, and you completely screwed up the premise anyway.

It's quite easy for anyone to go back and see that a forum member made some interesting comments, was told their comments don't pertain to the discussion, I questioned that, received a comment, I asked for clarification, was called a liar, then pointed out I was not.

If someone has a personal feud, it's not moi. I actually was asking for clarification.

[Ser Creighton]

It's quite easy for anyone to go back and see that a forum member made some interesting comments, was told their comments don't pertain to the discussion, I questioned that, received a comment, I asked for clarification, was called a liar, then pointed out I was not.

If someone has a personal feud, it's not moi. I actually was asking for clarification.

Did you just refer to yourself as Moi? Really? How very Trading Places of you.