Sansa is not a Stark

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

By my username you can tell I like the idea of Sansa as a Lannister but SANSA IS A STARK FIRST AND FOREMOST.

[Darksnider05]

Da fuk? Did you just compare Sansa as the unfeeling, cruel one to Arya who is becoming a goddamn assassin?

Well that's actually true Arya is the one who is far more empathetic it's pretty much the reason she is the way she is.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I do not necessarily think she is "no longer a Bard man( Stark)".

But she is not a redeemed character( fully) in my eyes either.

She's something in between these two things maybe?

She is not Cersei (a shame , that would be entertaining),

but it takes a lot more than making snow castles and daydreaming to

counterweight the atrocious person she exhibited in GOT.

Maybe my best description for Sansa would be

that she's still very much a work in progress?

I'm still not convinced whether a mature Sansa will

be a likeable person or a "cheesy used car salesman",

I tend to associate her with deceit a lot, at least that's the

air she gives me.

She is Littlefinger reborn as a ginger in a size 4 dress?

Yeah that sounds about right lol.

[Nictarion]

^ Sansa was never in love with Joffrey.

Exactly. She barely knew him. It was infatuation, and the idea of being queen.

[zeppelincheetah]

Ned wasn't a warg, so it is actually more unusual that 4 of his 6 children (Rickon hasn't been proven yet) are wargs than it is that one is not a warg. Sorry if this has been brought up already. I didn't feel like reading through this whole thread. This whole idea is ludicrous. Catlyn is her mother, she has only been with Ned Stark. She witnessed Sansa's birth firsthand. She would've mentioned something about Sansa not being Ned's somewhere in her POV chapters or at the very least hinted at it.

[Harry the Hair]

Ned wasn't a warg, so it is actually more unusual that 4 of his 6 children (Rickon hasn't been proven yet) are wargs than it is that one is not a warg. Sorry if this has been brought up already. I didn't feel like reading through this whole thread. This whole idea is ludicrous. Catlyn is her mother, she has only been with Ned Stark. She witnessed Sansa's birth firsthand. She would've mentioned something about Sansa not being Ned's somewhere in her POV chapters or at the very least hinted at it.

Sansa's parentage was never disputed here, this thread is about Sansa possibly having difficulties with reclaiming her Stark identity after losing her wolf.

[sweetsunray]

She named the direwolf Lady. In a way she wanted to make something wild into something courtly. Being a Lady herself was what she dreamed of being. In aGoT the death of Lady symbolizes first her teen betrayal to her sister/her family, by siding with Joffrey over the fight Arya and Joffrey had. When she does that (for understandable and even defendable reasons), she sets herself apart from being a Stark and stands with the Lannisters. But instead of Arya or Nimeria being punished for it, her wolf gets killed for it. So the death of Lady in that respect symbolizes her choosing Joffrey Lannister over her Stark family, as well as how Sansa will be punished and victimized by Joffrey over and over again for everything any of her Stark kin do - Ned's treason, Robb rebelling, Robb winning battles, ...

Lastly, the death of Lady can also be seen as a preclusion of how Sansa's perception of what it means to be a Stark will change: the court ain't for her, because it isn't what she thought it was at all. It symbolizes the death of her fantasies about courtlife, chivalry, knights and ladies. In that light, she can and she is recapturing her own personal Stark identity internally (even if she hides it externally) and is turning into a survivor more and more, and she will reconcile or reclaim her ferocious side over time.

I don't think it means literal death to her at all, nor permanent identity loss.

[Harry the Hair]

I don't think it means literal death to her at all, nor permanent identity loss.

:agree:

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

And here I was hoping this was a theory about how Cat got revenge on Ned for "fathering" Jon by having an affair with Littlefinger.

[Ser Knute]

Her dad killed Lady btw. So the way she saw it at the time is that Arya gets everything, and she, the good-obedient daughter, gets punished for things that Arya does.

I feel that this is one thing that's missed quite often. Sansa DID lie, or at the least failed to tell the truth. Now, you can argue all you want about how naive she was, I'd agree that she was, but naivety doesn't excuse you from lying. She lied for her personal gain or perceived gain. Sansa knew full well that Mycah and Arya hadn't attacked Joffrey as he claimed. It could be argued that she brought instant karma upon herself for that lie. Had Sansa actually stood up and said, yea, that Joffrey was responsible as was the case; then who knows what would've happened. Cersei may have still wanted one of the direwolves as a pelt but the situation may have resolved a bit differently had Robert heard the truth. Had Robert heard that Joff was swinging Widow's Wail at Arya and Mycah I don't think Cersei's barb about the beast that savaged his son would've had as much 'bite', no pun intended. Then of course you'd have to account for how Ned would've reacted to that as well, could've been a completely different outcome.

Of course, the story was supposed to transpire that way so obviously George has something in mind but it really irks me that Sansa's culpability in how that scene transpired is often not spoken of and nor is it mentioned as a reason for Sansa not being quite as "Starky" as the rest of 'em. Sansa reminded me more of her Tully mother than a Stark in my readings; Arya certainly fits in more with the recent 'ideal' of Stark women as we really only have Lyanna to base any ideal on, however Sansa easily stood out to me as the one Stark who acted the least like a Stark.

I don't think that losing her Direwolf is foreshadowing Sansa's death; I think it's foreshadowing that she risks losing her identity in trying to be what others want her to be instead of her being herself however the cards fall; like Ned, like Brandon, like Robb, like Arya, like Jon. Even Jon, who believes he's not a Stark but wished his whole childhood that he was; was quicker to defend the Starks despite the consequences than Sansa, even BEFORE she lost her protection. Sansa's arc to me so far has been about her personal desires more than anything else; she wants to be a queen like in the songs; she wants to have a more proper sister for someone like her (acting like a highborn lady does); she even refers to Jon as half-brother by default whereas the other kids only say Jon's a half-brother to clarify when a situation calls for it. Now I'm not going so far as to say that Sansa is trying to be someone else, but there are times when you get a clear impression that Sansa is almost embarrassed to be a Stark. In her efforts to affect her desires, she's separated herself from her family more than the other siblings. Of course as the situation deteriorates, she seems to have a realization that father was BS'n when he said we're going to a dangerous place (KL). With the subtle jabs she throws at Joffrey for all of Robb's victories, you can still see a bit of Stark pride in her, or pride resurfacing; what-have-you.

The problem is that Arya's and Sansa's situation is completely different. While they both are struggling to retain their identities; the manner in which that struggle is occurring vastly different. Arya is free (for the most part) to do as she pleases; she can melt into obscurity if she wants to; she can eek out a living selling those mussels and clams if she wants to; she can leave the HoB&W if she wants to. Sansa doesn't have really any of those things going for her, so I don't find it unreasonable that she's doing what she's doing; poor girl is looking for an out but even if she sees one, what then, what future does she have at present, outside of declaring herself to the Vale and hoping that they share her views/opinions...?

[ambi76]

Well that's actually true Arya is the one who is far more empathetic it's pretty much the reason she is the way she is.

????????

Arya is (hilariously) much more emotional than Sansa but more emphathetic? Wow just wow.

[Luddagain]

Ambi

Arya is certainly very empathetic, hence her rage. She really let Tickler get to her, and she cared even for the child Weesy. She saved the three guys, because of empathy and poured water down the throats of the condemned men. She cared a great deal about Micah's death.

Sansa has never been confronted with such situations so we do not really know her level of empathy.

Now while her behaviour was perfectly normal for a girl of 11, the reality was that Sansa and Jeyne were quite cruel to Arya. GRRM shows little Mycella upset at Arya's distress, not so much Sansa. Again, sibling rivalry so crazy to make too much of it, but Sansa is not presented as an empathetic child. I blame Spta Mordane. After all we see Maester Luwin gently chiding Bran for thoughtless cruelty to Hodor, but we do not really see Septa Mordane telling the older girls not to be mean to Arya - indeed Mordane seems to be quite cruel herself.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Regarding empathy, Arya was more empathetic with lower social class people (and behavior) than Sansa in the first book . Sansa does show her own empathy side in the books eventually and her character grows as well for the better. I would say that at a certain point we saw an improvement of personality and behavior for Sansa. Especially in ACOK. Since AFFC and in the future, things might become darker though.

Of course Arya also had a darker path. At this point both characters are in a point of change, we had less Sansa chapters come out for a bigger amount of time (especially if we include the Mercy Arya chapter) so I am more interested to read what happens and gain more info on Sansa's development than to compare based on speculation.

[sweetsunray]

Joining the empathy topic:

Arya definitely is empathic. Actually most names on her list got there because of the cruelty and callousness displayed in hurting and killing other people. Her saving Jaquen and his imprisoned mates from the fire is another example of that. It is her empathy that often makes her stand up against others for their cruelty and injustice, as she did for Micah against Joffrey.

I certainly wouldn't say that Sansa has less of it. She often attempts to help people when they're Joffrey's target. Both feel empathy for a total stranger, which is usually classed as a high degree of empathy.

What they do both lack is empathy for each other, and this is mainly because of their sibling history. Siblings fight, and depending on how this natural behaviour is treated it can make it impossible to cross the gap. I agree with the comment that the Septa especially is to blame for this. She only has praise for Sansa and only beratings and punishment for Arya. This feeds the self-indulgent perception for Sansa that she is the good, proper daughter (hte golden child) and that Arya is the bad seed, a nuisance. Arya is a nuisance to Sansa, pestering her about her ladylike attitude, and often wanting to spoil it for Sansa. The Septa favoring Sansa over Arya for her feminine ways, actually fuels Arya's desire and need to bring Sansa down on that account alone. By belittling and spoiling Sansa's beauty and feminity, she doesn't have to consider herself to be a failure at being a girl anymore. The septa's favoring creates an identity clash between the two sisters. They have different personalities, identify with different aspects of personhood, and talents. Arya can never be a lady in the sense that Sansa naturally is. No matter how much she would try, she could never be any good at sowing or embroidery. With the Septa thinking ill of her of what she can never really do well, and by praising Sansa sky high for what comes natural to her, the Septa judges their nature, one being good, the other being bad.

And so Sansa has her great romantic moment with Joffrey along the river banks. And even though it's Joffrey who spoils the moment by going for an unarmed Micah (well a measly mock stick) with a sword, it's easier and more familiar for Sansa to think of Arya being the cause of the spoiled moment, than considering her fiance to be stupid and cruel. Meanwhile Cersei flatters Sansa's senses of how beautiful and ladylike she is even more, and she expands any threat to that fantasy not to blaming Arya alone but to her father. In this phase, Sansa mostly has self-empathy but no empathy for others. It's only when she learns that life ain't no fairytale, after she lost her father, her septa, her friend that she realizes the love she has for her family, including Arya, and realizes how Cersei and Joffrey are plain cruel. Now she is in real peril, and can see them for who they are, and her self-pity fades away and she opens up to her empathy again.

[Chebyshov]

I think people are conflating compassion and empathy. Sansa is maybe the most empathetic person in the series. She has the ability to intuit others' feelings in an incredibly unique way. She also happens to be compassionate (like how she feels sad for Sandor after he tells the story in AGOT), but she certainly had a less compassionate attitude towards the lowborn than Arya did at the start of the series. It's changed since then.

Arya is an intuitive person, for sure. And she is a sympathetic person to a degree. But she's decidedly less empathetic than her sister.

Honestly, you could almost call "empathetic" Sansa's defining trait.

[ambi76]

I think people are conflating compassion and empathy.

I think it's more like: "I can emphathise/relate more with/to Arya"= "Arya is empathetic". Which is a weird equation to make.

Honestly, you could almost call "empathetic" Sansa's defining trait.

Indeed. But it seems some people have never actually read a Sansa chapter after AGOT ever.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think it's more like: "I can emphathise/relate more with/to Arya"= "Arya is empathetic". Which is a weird equation to make.

Empathy isn't one experiencing other people's feelings as his/her own?

In that case, the posters above have made a case for Arya, that is not at all this "equation" above, that IMO, could not be logivally infered from any of the above posts, unless that is what you want to see.

[sweetsunray]

Empathy isn't one experiencing other people's feelings as his/her own?

In that case, the posters above have made a case for Arya, that is not at all this "equation" above, that IMO, could not be logivally infered from any of the above posts, unless that is what you want to see.

Empathy is indeed to experience what other people feels: there is affective empathy (to feel it) and intellectual empathy (to imagine it, to foresee it). There is no doubt to me that both Sansa and Arya are very capable in the affective department as well as the intellectual department, but we see it expressed in different ways.But at their chore they are both fully empathic and have a keen feeling of justice/injustice. What they do though to deal with it is an entirely different path.

Compassion is a particular emotion fueled by the combination of empathy and feelings of justice/injustice, which motivates the person feeling it to act - to help the one who is hurt, to stand up against injustice.

Without empathy and an inherent feeling of justice/injustice (apart from the one inflicted upon one-self) it's difficult to feel compassion, which is the basis for altruism. However, compassion also has a high cerebral component, as it is entirely possible to act with compassion on pure abstract reasoning alone.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Joining the empathy topic:

Arya definitely is empathic. Actually most names on her list got there because of the cruelty and callousness displayed in hurting and killing other people. Her saving Jaquen and his imprisoned mates from the fire is another example of that. It is her empathy that often makes her stand up against others for their cruelty and injustice, as she did for Micah against Joffrey.

I certainly wouldn't say that Sansa has less of it. She often attempts to help people when they're Joffrey's target. Both feel empathy for a total stranger, which is usually classed as a high degree of empathy.

What they do both lack is empathy for each other, and this is mainly because of their sibling history. Siblings fight, and depending on how this natural behaviour is treated it can make it impossible to cross the gap. I agree with the comment that the Septa especially is to blame for this. She only has praise for Sansa and only beratings and punishment for Arya. This feeds the self-indulgent perception for Sansa that she is the good, proper daughter (hte golden child) and that Arya is the bad seed, a nuisance. Arya is a nuisance to Sansa, pestering her about her ladylike attitude, and often wanting to spoil it for Sansa. The Septa favoring Sansa over Arya for her feminine ways, actually fuels Arya's desire and need to bring Sansa down on that account alone. By belittling and spoiling Sansa's beauty and feminity, she doesn't have to consider herself to be a failure at being a girl anymore. The septa's favoring creates an identity clash between the two sisters. They have different personalities, identify with different aspects of personhood, and talents. Arya can never be a lady in the sense that Sansa naturally is. No matter how much she would try, she could never be any good at sowing or embroidery. With the Septa thinking ill of her of what she can never really do well, and by praising Sansa sky high for what comes natural to her, the Septa judges their nature, one being good, the other being bad.

And so Sansa has her great romantic moment with Joffrey along the river banks. And even though it's Joffrey who spoils the moment by going for an unarmed Micah (well a measly mock stick) with a sword, it's easier and more familiar for Sansa to think of Arya being the cause of the spoiled moment, than considering her fiance to be stupid and cruel. Meanwhile Cersei flatters Sansa's senses of how beautiful and ladylike she is even more, and she expands any threat to that fantasy not to blaming Arya alone but to her father. In this phase, Sansa mostly has self-empathy but no empathy for others. It's only when she learns that life ain't no fairytale, after she lost her father, her septa, her friend that she realizes the love she has for her family, including Arya, and realizes how Cersei and Joffrey are plain cruel. Now she is in real peril, and can see them for who they are, and her self-pity fades away and she opens up to her empathy again.

Great synopsis and very accurate outlook imo.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Joining the empathy topic:

Fabulous post!

I think people are conflating compassion and empathy. Sansa is maybe the most empathetic person in the series.

Honestly, you could almost call "empathetic" Sansa's defining trait.

Empathy is defined as being able to understand and share the feelings of another. While Sansa is becoming more empathetic, her start is definitely not defined by her being able to understand the feelings of another. In fact, it is quite the opposite. She doesn't truly begin to show this until she begins to interact with Sandor and here, she does indeed do a good job of understanding his feelings. This spreads to others but before him, being empathetic is hardly her defining trait. It is her lack of it that defines her when we first meet her and it was perhaps purposefully done this way to make her empathy and acceptance of Sandor and Dontos - people who have been shunned by everyone else - more prolific.