Sansa is not a Stark

[TimJames]

When I saw the title of this thread, I was terrified that it was a crackpot theory claiming that Sansa is the result of adultery on Catelyn's part.

But even if she lost her direwolf, I'm sure Bran, Arya, Jon and Rickon would all recognize Sansa if she went to any of them.

[ummester]

It's not about being a Stark.

Lady dying means that Sansa will not be (likened to) a magical, monstrous wolf in the final battle, she will be a human. Starks have nothing to do with it.

[TimJames]

The title of the thread is "Sansa is not a Stark". You can surly see the confusion such a title would cause at first glance.

[ummester]

The title of the thread is "Sansa is not a Stark". You can surly see the confusion such a title would cause at first glance.

True, but the OP did say they deliberately inserted a controversial title.

[Mladen]

It's not about being a Stark.

Lady dying means that Sansa will not be (likened to) a magical, monstrous wolf in the final battle, she will be a human. Starks have nothing to do with it.

Sansa is a warg, per GRRM. So, she is very much linked to the magical part of the story. So, she might not be warging a direwolf, but who knows... There are other animals :)

The title of the thread is "Sansa is not a Stark". You can surly see the confusion such a title would cause at first glance.

The title is a bit trollish...

[ummester]

Sansa is a warg, per GRRM. So, she is very much linked to the magical part of the story. So, she might not be warging a direwolf, but who knows... There are other animals :)

What is a Warg? Outside of how GRRM uses the word in ASoIaF - a warg is a giant mythological wolf. Stark kids may be wargs 'in story' but Shaggydog, Summer and Nymeria are turning into what would be a real mythological wargs. I don't think GRRM is really telling a story about the kids - well he is, because the kids are humans and humans find humans interesting - but I think he is telling an equal story about the wolves, or myhtological wolves from human mythology via those kids.

Lady never got big enough to be likened to a warg. Sansa no longer has her wolf totem. I think people need to stop thinking of the Starks as a singular group, or faction, in story. The Lannisters are no longer a united front, why should the Starks be? Just because Arya's daddy told her wolves are stronger in pacts? Even if they are, Sansa doesn't have one... She's on the outside any way you slice it. Well, along with Jon, he's not quite a mythological warg, ether.

[Mladen]

What is a Warg? Outside of how GRRM uses the word in ASoIaF - a warg is a giant mythological wolf. Stark kids may be wargs 'in story' but Shaggydog, Summer and Nymeria are turning into what would be a real mythological wargs. I don't think GRRM is really telling a story about the kids - well he is, because the kids are humans and humans find humans interesting - but I think he is telling an equal story about the wolves, or myhtological wolves from human mythology via those kids.

Lady never got big enough to be likened to a warg. Sansa no longer has her wolf totem. I think people need to stop thinking of the Starks as a singular group, or faction, in story. The Lannisters are no longer a united front, why should the Starks be? Just because Arya's daddy told her wolves are stronger in pacts? Even if they are, Sansa doesn't have one... She's on the outside any way you slice it. Well, along with Jon, he's not quite a mythological warg, ether.

Animals are not wargs... People are. And skinchangers/wargs are born, hence Sansa is a warg, since GRRM said that entire current Stark generation is composed of wargs.

If you use Lannister family dynamics to discuss the Stark family dynamics, I think you should realize that these two are intentionally contrasted. Wolf is a pack animal, these people are connected to each other. Arya thinks of Jon and WF, Sansa finds strength in memory of her brother and mother. Sansa is part of this pack. And if you are watching who is out, then all of they are out, given that none of them is united with others.

[ummester]

Animals are not wargs... People are. And skinchangers/wargs are born, hence Sansa is a warg, since GRRM said that entire current Stark generation is composed of wargs.

If you use Lannister family dynamics to discuss the Stark family dynamics, I think you should realize that these two are intentionally contrasted. Wolf is a pack animal, these people are connected to each other. Arya thinks of Jon and WF, Sansa finds strength in memory of her brother and mother. Sansa is part of this pack. And if you are watching who is out, then all of they are out, given that none of them is united with others.

Before GRRM (or JRR Tolkien) utilized the word, a vargr was Norse for giant wolf and anglicized as varg or warg. If it is purely a fantasy element that exists in a GRRM created world, he could have invented a fantastic word - he didn't, he used a real word that literally means wolf. I believe there is a reason for this - namely, the tale of the Starks (sans Sansa and Jon) is chiefly a tale about mythological wolves. Sansa and Jon are not part of the remaining warg pack.

This thread should be titled 'Sansa is not a wolf'.

[Alaynsa Starne]

, Yes they are more involved than others are... but still it's not the same as modern parents.

I'm not entirely sure on this. The Starks aren't given much time together as a unit, so it may be difficult to judge. But I do remember Sansa thinking about how Ned would tell her and her siblings stories, so there does seem to be some form of structured family time. That other members of the household train the children in certain skills is really no different than modern children going to school besides the fact that the Stark children have live-in tutors.

[LordStoneheart]

Before GRRM (or JRR Tolkien) utilized the word, a vargr was Norse for giant wolf and anglicized as varg or warg. If it is purely a fantasy element that exists in a GRRM created world, he could have invented a fantastic word - he didn't, he used a real word that literally means wolf. I believe there is a reason for this - namely, the tale of the Starks (sans Sansa and Jon) is chiefly a tale about mythological wolves. Sansa and Jon are not part of the remaining warg pack.

This thread should be titled 'Sansa is not a wolf'.

Just because he used a real world term doesn't mean that equates to a real world concept. He said all the children have it to some extent, and spoke of it as an ability. I'd just go with the simplest explanation, that warg just means a skinchanger who can jump in the mind of a direwolf.

[sweetsunray]

I'm not entirely sure on this. The Starks aren't given much time together as a unit, so it may be difficult to judge. But I do remember Sansa thinking about how Ned would tell her and her siblings stories, so there does seem to be some form of structured family time. That other members of the household train the children in certain skills is really no different than modern children going to school besides the fact that the Stark children have live-in tutors.

Yes, they share quality time as a family at meals for example. Though they "teach" and "educate" and modern day teachers also partly have to "rear" children and teens while teaching, it is more than "live in" teachers. It is more comparable to governesses of the 18th and 19th century, who had the major task of .rearing. If you would transfer it to modern day rearing and schooling, I think it would be more apt to say it's as if the children are at private boarding school, with Ned and Catelyn being the headmasters, Catelyn for the all girls school and Ned of the all boys school. These headmasters may at times sit with the children and tell stories and have the ultimate decision on disciplining whenever a child misbehaved (towards their tutors), but mostly the rearing is done by the tutors, not just the tutoring. And now let's imagine that a Catholic all girls boarding school is set up in Scandinavia amongst the Vikings rearing shield maidens to be proper Catholic girls (yeah, I know I'm mixing up two totally different times in one image, but it's the closest I can get to describe the septa rearing two girls of the North.) Now imagine Lagertha and Aslaugh being sisters with those nuns. Aslaugh might very well do great in the Catholic all girls boarding school, but Lagertha?

Also Ned telling stories to his children, is still not the same as having a hearty, private talk with one of his daughters, as we see him do with Arya in KL when he discovers Needle. Arya's assumptions and response to Ned's words reveal how she does not know her father much at all, and how it's probably the first parental conversation she has with Ned where it becomes clear to her that she's loved and appreciated. The journey to KL and scenes at the Red Keep also reveal that while Ned has an idea who his daughters are, it's the first time he's responsible to actually deal with either of them and doesn't know their hearts, injuries, thoughts at all before that. Catelyn obviously used to deal with that before the separation of WF, and from what we know of Catelyn's thoughts she never was all that much involved in their lives either, certainly not in the way she did with Bran (who is the child of her heart).

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

I can only say that Sansa is obviously not dying. I think there's not even a plausible scenario for her to die. What will George do, throw away five books of character development for a cheap death at WInds?

The Starks have to survive, since this is their hero's journey. That means Sansa, Arya and Bran must live until late ADOS, and even then, Arya, as much as I love her, has a much more connected path to death.

This, so much. Although I would add that the case of her dying in A Dream of Spring would be a cheap shot and a waste of character development. I don't expect her to be a super hero or a bad ass queen. I just want her to be a survivor and someone who can hold on for her family and help reestablish the Stark dominion over the North even if it means her being a ward to one of her brothers, shall they live. I'll be happy with any outcome for Sansa Stark, aside from death. I mean, who knows she could end up in Riverrun and bringing back House Tully. I mean, any ending for her is acceptable in this series except for death.

[hiraeth]

Sansa hasn't lost her Stark identity at all. Her identification as a Stark is strengthening and she is re-asserting it more and more, thinking of her parents and her brother and constantly reminding herself to be brave like them. Like Arya, she can't shake off her Stark roots.

It's the one thing, more than any other, that is keeping her from finally succumbing to Littlefinger's views.

I have always thought that Lady's death was a sort of punishment to Sansa for her "ladylike" southern dreams - before going to KL, she was the only Stark kid that was more of a southerner, she was the only one listening to the Septa, I guess that it meant not believing in the old gods of the North, I always thought of her as a Tully, not a Stark. Lady's death and the death of hear dreams are more likely to bring her closer to her Stark identity and protect her from becoming LF no. 2.

[Mladen]

I have always thought that Lady's death was a sort of punishment to Sansa for her "ladylike" southern dreams - before going to KL, she was the only Stark kid that was more of a southerner, she was the only one listening to the Septa, I guess that it meant not believing in the old gods of the North, I always thought of her as a Tully, not a Stark. Lady's death and the death of hear dreams are more likely to bring her closer to her Stark identity and protect her from becoming LF no. 2.

Bran wanted to be a knight and he ended up being greenseer. Robb had his mother's looks and he was named King in the North. Sansa is someone who reminds me so much of Ned and his nature. The irony is that Arya is basically her mother's daughter, especially Stonheart iteration. I think that we sometimes forget that there is no "true Stark" and that the mere fact that in the past generation we had Ned and Brandon who were as different as Sansa and Arya are speaks volumes.

[hiraeth]

She didn't see it as "ratting out" her father. She wanted to stay in KL and she did it because she wanted to become a Queen herself. Cersei did quite a bit of stupid and evil things to become/stay a queen, that seemed to be a valid reason for her. Sansa was still just a naive child and had no idea what was going on.

Arya was younger than Sansa at that time and she saw through Joffrey and Cersei and did not "rat out" her father. Sansa was a perfect little lady with her head in the clouds, she was trying to be a perfect copy of her mother, who I blame for Sansa's unhealthy and unrealistic ideas about noble knights and beautiful perfect ladies. Sansa even mirrored her mother's disdain for Jon Snow.

[naseridrl]

Bran wanted to be a knight and he ended up being greenseer. Robb had his mother's looks and he was named King in the North. Sansa is someone who reminds me so much of Ned and his nature. The irony is that Arya is basically her mother's daughter, especially Stonheart iteration. I think that we sometimes forget that there is no "true Stark" and that the mere fact that in the past generation we had Ned and Brandon who were as different as Sansa and Arya are speaks volumes.

Catelyn actually seems like a kid who Arya would have got on with, she sounds like she was an active child not that different from Arya, swimming, riding and making mud pies.

[hiraeth]

Bran wanted to be a knight and he ended up being greenseer. Robb had his mother's looks and he was named King in the North. Sansa is someone who reminds me so much of Ned and his nature. The irony is that Arya is basically her mother's daughter, especially Stonheart iteration. I think that we sometimes forget that there is no "true Stark" and that the mere fact that in the past generation we had Ned and Brandon who were as different as Sansa and Arya are speaks volumes.

Reading about Sansa, and reading her own chapters has always made me think that she thought that she was "above" the northern ways, which I have never sensed was being the case with Bran, Robb or Arya. Of course there are different personalities in each family, some things are inherrited from our mother's and some from our father's side, but in Sansa's case my feeling was that she was somewhat conceited. Sansa's attitude towards Jon was also a sign for me. Arya adores Jon, Robb sees him as his best friend, Bran loves Jon. Only Sansa kept her distance. It's not about being a true Stark, it's about being a wannabe...

[Mladen]

Arya was younger than Sansa at that time and she saw through Joffrey and Cersei and did not "rat out" her father. Sansa was a perfect little lady with her head in the clouds, she was trying to be a perfect copy of her mother, who I blame for Sansa's unhealthy and unrealistic ideas about noble knights and beautiful perfect ladies. Sansa even mirrored her mother's disdain for Jon Snow.

But, Catelyn was never the one with unrealistic ideas about knighthood and ladies. On contrary, the parent who had some unrealistic ideas about people was Ned.

Catelyn actually seems like a kid who Arya would have got on with, she sounds like she was an active child not that different from Arya, swimming, riding and making mud pies.

True...

[hiraeth]

But, Catelyn was never the one with unrealistic ideas about knighthood and ladies. On contrary, the parent who had some unrealistic ideas about people was Ned.

True...

Catelyn had never done anything to curb Sansa's unrealistic ideas and her behavior, Sansa thought she was copying her. From what I remember, Catelyn supported Sansa's ways wholeheartedly. Catelyn should have seen that Sansa took after Ned when it came to judging characters and should have done something to prepare her for KL. Catelyn should have been the one to see the true face of Cersei and Joffrey. She sent an unrealistic 12-year old girl, her head full of unhealthy fantasies right to the vipers' nest.

[Mladen]

Catelyn had never done anything to curb Sansa's unrealistic ideas and her behavior, Sansa thought she was copying her. From what I remember, Catelyn supported Sansa's ways wholeheartedly. Catelyn should have seen that Sansa took after Ned when it came to judging characters and should have done something to prepare her for KL. Catelyn should have been the one to see the true face of Cersei and Joffrey. She sent an unrealistic 12-year old girl, her head full of unhealthy fantasies right to the vipers' nest.

No, she sent 12-year-old girl to viper's nest WITH HER FATHER. If Ned actually looked more at his daughter than playing detective, he could have prevented disaster. Even the Trident incident should have been valuable lesson. Tell me, what kind of father actually see what kind of person his future son-in-law is and he continues with the engagements.