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Cavendish

Sansa is not a Stark

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I have always thought that Lady's death was a sort of punishment to Sansa for her "ladylike" southern dreams - before going to KL, she was the only Stark kid that was more of a southerner

How was she "more of a southerner"? Courtesy and ladylike manners? That's how the Northern ladies are supposed to behave too.

she was the only one listening to the Septa, I guess that it meant not believing in the old gods of the North

She, Arya and Bran were all raised to follow both religions. Neither was particularly religious (before Bran's fault) but Sansa believed in the Old gods, just wasn't parthicularly enthusiastic about them (neither were Arya and Bran, Ned even thought Bran could choose to become the High Septon one day).

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Sansa is as much a Lannister as Catelyn was a Stark, and she did take after her mother. A wolf that takes after a fish can assumably lose its way very easily, but that doesn't change what it really is.

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Lmao at the first mlladen is coming comments, really frames a proper perspective of how these forums work.



And Sansa isnt a Stark. OP have you ever seen the story/quote on how people were discussing the notion in front of GRRM and he pretty much said so? Its interesting by itself, by definitely something more to think about on your theory on how people may not believe her when she does reveal herself - at least initially. It'd be a good juxtaposition to the Aegon story happening around the same time


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Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.

This is from GRRM's original plan. I think he's sticking to her original arc, for the most part. I wouldn't go so far as to say Sansa isn't a Stark but she's in a similar position as Tyrion: they have both done ill towards their own families and now they are distanced from them. She's having a lot more identity issues than he is and she did lose her wolf. Sure Ned didn't have one but that's not the point. All of his children have wolves, it's part of who they are. All of them except Sansa and that's the point.

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Lmao at the first mlladen is coming comments, really frames a proper perspective of how these forums work.

And Sansa isnt a Stark. OP have you ever seen the story/quote on how people were discussing the notion in front of GRRM and he pretty much said so? Its interesting by itself, by definitely something more to think about on your theory on how people may not believe her when she does reveal herself - at least initially. It'd be a good juxtaposition to the Aegon story happening around the same time

Has Boardology taught you nothing?:)

Sansa is a Stark. I am sorry for all those Sansa Lannister/Bolton fanboys but Sansa Stark never actually seized to exist. The dinner party you are referring to has somewhat contradictory reports and until I hear from Martin, "No, she is not Stark, she is ... whatever comes to mind", I am sticking to what I have read about this character. I believe that Martin's intentions were and are to isolate Sansa (just like pretty much all of her sibling) and show us different side of how wolves cope with their losses. And while two she-wolves of the series are complete opposite aka "sun and moon", thing is that they wonderfully complements each other. I recommend Lady Gwyn's work on the subject.

Sansa is as much a Lannister as Catelyn was a Stark, and she did take after her mother. A wolf that takes after a fish can assumably lose its way very easily, but that doesn't change what it really is.

LOL, no, Catelyn identifies herself as a Stark through and through. Her entire journey is about accepting that part of identity and identifying with it. Sansa never actually identified as Lannister, and even more no one identified her that way, save for Stannis who had his own reasons to do so.

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I think Sansa lost Lady because she's the Stark traitor, or No True Stark. She always fought with Arya , when all the other Stark kids liked Arya. She was the only Stark kid to always think of Jon as a bastard rather than a brother (Rob only brought it up once when they were kids).


When she went to the godswood to meet Dontos the first time: "Sansa had favored her mother's gods over her father's. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded glass, the fragrance of burning incense, the septons with their robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli."


When Ned was taking the girls out of Kings Landing, Sansa betrayed the Starks when she ran off crying to Cersei. She's about as guilty as my man Baelish in Ned's death. Not just Ned, all the Stark men they brought with them, other than the 2 jaime killed.


Sansa also looks nothing like a Stark. Baelish says she looks just like her mother. Blackfish says Catelyn looks just like her mother, Minisa Whent. So Sansa looks like a Whent.


When Sansa was asked what happened between Arya and Jeoff, she didn't side with her family. She lied to protect Jeoff, hey, and that's why Lady was killed.



Come to think of it, has Sansa ever actually helped a member of the Stark family? I can't think of a single occasion. If anyone can think of one, please remind me, I just started to like her but I don't think she's gonna be welcomed back to the family reunion.


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I remember threads like this. I made one last year, and I'm surprised at Sansa's support. It doesn't offend me, but I think you have to ignore the symbolism if you don't think she isn't cursed or at the very least literary meaning. I know the show has taken a different route, but its interesting how she has really suffered the same fate as Cersei, in the aspect that everyone she knows is dead, and she pretty much been used by everybody and has no control of her life.



In fact, I think the old woman being flayed alive, shows a lot about where the series is going for her. She is in for a long road. She's a pawn who has an opposing pawn in front of her and will not move for a long time. Her return to Winterfell should show fans that she is absolutely still a pawn and being used.



I actually hope her "Starkness" isn't dead, but it really wouldn't surprise me if she ends up being a Cersei at the end of the series.


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After reading the opening post, I got a boner over the idea of Nymeria leading an army of Wolves into battle against the Freys/Boltons/Lannisters, and sybillically represtenting the Starks.

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From what GRRM has said and Sansa's return to Winterfell, I feel like it was much of a rub in the face that Sansa is simply a tool. We left off last season with her looking like a woman with her head held high, and we see her this season holding her head up high and trying to look like the Lady of Winterfell, and Ramsay puts her in her place. He does a lot of terrible things. Looking at her now, she looks like how she has always been, a little girl crying in her chambers and absolutely unable to control her life. That's not me trying to force it upon anyone, but you'd think that point would have been undoubtedly clear.


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Stark by name, Tully by nature - and dire-wolf-less.

From what GRRM has said and Sansa's return to Winterfell, I feel like it was much of a rub in the face that Sansa is simply a tool. We left off last season with her looking like a woman with her head held high, and we see her this season holding her head up high and trying to look like the Lady of Winterfell, and Ramsay puts her in her place. He does a lot of terrible things. Looking at her now, she looks like how she has always been, a little girl crying in her chambers and absolutely unable to control her life. That's not me trying to force it upon anyone, but you'd think that point would have been undoubtedly clear.

Some people are victims. Some characters in narratives exist to be victimised, with resolutions that are purely about extracting sympathy.

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Sansa is as much a Stark as the rest. If anything she becomes more Stark like as the books progress.

Lady's death for me foreshadows her death, an act of mercy by someone with her fathers features (I'm betting more on Arya than Jon).

No one is going to kill Sansa. Especially not her own sister of all people. This is so daft, I feel second hand embarrassment for you.

Arya would not kill Sansa. They don't like each other, that doesn't mean they don't love each other. Arya is more likely to be sent to off Jon after word gets to the FM that he 'rose from the dead'.

Exactly.

Did Tyrion lose a privilege of being a Lannister after killing Tywin? Or better, did Lyanna lose the privilege when her actions (arguably) got her father and brother killed? Did Ned lose the same privilege when he killed Lady? Or Robb when he refused to save his sisters?

Thank you. Nothing makes me flip my fucking lid like people bashing Sansa and calling for her to die, and being so smugly sure of it. It just makes me more aggressively protective of her and more loathing of humanity in general until I remember there are decent people like you, who appreciate and understand Sansa.

She didn't see it as "ratting out" her father. She wanted to stay in KL and she did it because she wanted to become a Queen herself. Cersei did quite a bit of stupid and evil things to become/stay a queen, that seemed to be a valid reason for her. Sansa was still just a naive child and had no idea what was going on.

Thank you. I hate it when people trash Sansa and claim she 'ratted out' Ned. It is one thing not to like Sansa, but it is another thing to hate her and call for her death. NOTHING else pisses me off more than this. I am more defensive of her than any character, ever.

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Answering to OP theory (and not psychological analysises about Sansa lack of "Starkness").



Sansa doesn't need her wolf to be recognized as herself because she is well known by everyone who was in King's Landing court, most being still alive. Unlike Arya (disappeared fast) and Rickon/Bran (spent their time in WF and most people who knew them are now dead). Add to that she is also older, and so has more chances to be recognized by Stark bannermen / nobles who visited the Starks like Yohn Royce.



In the North she may have problems to be accepted, but those problems would come from Robb's Will if it's revealed and it dishinerited her, or from the idea she willingly betrayed her family to marry a Lannister (but as since then she has been believed to have avenged her brother by poisoning Joffrey, I think most northmen would rather praise her).


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Answering to OP theory (and not psychological analysises about Sansa lack of "Starkness").

Sansa doesn't need her wolf to be recognized as herself because she is well known by everyone who was in King's Landing court, most being still alive. Unlike Arya (disappeared fast) and Rickon/Bran (spent their time in WF and most people who knew them are now dead). Add to that she is also older, and so has more chances to be recognized by Stark bannermen / nobles who visited the Starks like Yohn Royce.

In the North she may have problems to be accepted, but those problems would come from Robb's Will if it's revealed and it dishinerited her, or from the idea she willingly betrayed her family to marry a Lannister (but as since then she has been believed to have avenged her brother by poisoning Joffrey, I think most northmen would rather praise her).

I actually think the loss of her wolf meant that she was meant to have the Hound protecting her in King's Landing, thus we remember Sansa affectionately referring to Lady as an 'old hound' and after Lady died, I think it was Ned who said she'd be better off with a dog. I think that meant while she was separated from her family, she had another person with a canine nickname keeping her safe. If she was meant to die like Lady had, she'd have in the first book. I think this means she would have very delayed warging abilities and need to have to survive using politics and subtle maneuvering like pretending to be loyal to Joffrey in King's Landing to survive.

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I think the hypocrisy of the idea of Black Sheep still gets to people. Sansa is as Stark as anyone. If we are going to talk about direwolves than Ned, Lyanna, Benjen, Brandon and every Stark before does not have Direwolf pet either. That means that Arya, Bran, Jon, Robb, Rickon and yes, even Sansa initially (she got a wolf before she lost it) was more Stark than them.

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Does not Stannis refer to Sansa as Lady Lannister twice while swearing to Jon that Tyrion/Sansa will not get Winterfell while he (Stannis) lives? There are obviously characters in series who see her as Sansa Lannister since she is married to Tyrion Lannister.

I mean he also calls Gilly a whore for being raped and impregnated by her father so maybe not the best example.

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I think the hypocrisy of the idea of Black Sheep still gets to people. Sansa is as Stark as anyone. If we are going to talk about direwolves than Ned, Lyanna, Benjen, Brandon and every Stark before does not have Direwolf pet either. That means that Arya, Bran, Jon, Robb, Rickon and yes, even Sansa initially (she got a wolf before she lost it) was more Stark than them.

Ned and Ned's siblings cannot be compared to Sansa. They never had wolves in the first place. Sansa had one and then lost it because of her own actions. She is very much less "Stark" than them because of this and a multitude of other things.

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Yes it's as if Sansa stabbed Lady personally in the back!



Eddard in Game



She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see . . ."



"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."



"Arya, stop it!" Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. "Are you hurt?" he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear.



"The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."




Some people read as superficially as some claim Sansa to be. :bang:


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Yes it's as if Sansa stabbed Lady personally in the back!

Eddard in Game

Some people read as superficially as some claim Sansa to be. :bang:

Yeah it wasn't intentional and Sansa was scared and young, but ultimately it was Sansa's fault. She played a main role in Lady's death.

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No, ultimately it was Cersei's fault, she wanted the Direwolves dead.



People to blame in order of their contribution.



  1. Cersei
  2. Joffrey
  3. King Bob
  4. Eddard
  5. Renley
  6. Society
  7. Arya
  8. Sansa
  9. and last Micah

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Yes it's as if Sansa stabbed Lady personally in the back!

It's known Sansa couldn't admit she was fearing her own wolf, and showed her player qualities manipulating Cersei to get Lady killed (proving in the same move she's not a Stark and her true father was Petyr, as we know heredity explain everything).

It was just the beginning as she then enginered her own father death to satisfy her ambition, using poor Joffrey as a tool. Also don't forget that her influence on Theon, who dreamed to marry her, may also explain why he betrayed Robb.

She tries to manipulate even the readers, never thinking about all her mischievous plans in her PoV, but as all her false tears it can only fool those who want to be fooled.

Read the most brillant essay ever written about her personnality, you will be enlightened. ;)

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