Sansa is not a Stark

[Joan Jett]

We know enough to make a conclusion that she wasn't passive bystander in anything that has been happening. Sansa lost her wolf because someone wanted that wolf dead, plain and simple. Cersei wanted wolf dead and even in WF she has so said. Also, Lady's death can be seen from many different angles.

Generation before this one serve us as a reminder that there is no true Stark. Ned said that he is so different from Kings in the North. Brandon and Ned were polar opposites, Lyanna did the same as Sansa... There is no such thing as "being Stark" and "being less Stark"...

NOPE. Not true at all. Rhaegar was a prince with a lot of power. He could have easily captured Lyanna, who was 13/14 at the time, against her will. Even though it's unlikely it's still a possibility. We don't have enough information to determine whether Lyanna "betrayed her family" at all, much less if Lyanna and Sansa were the "same" at all in their choices.

Even if Lyanna had gone willingly that wouldn't be betraying her family. Sansa's decision not to tell the truth directly put Arya in jeopardy, but Lyanna's alleged decision did not put any members of her family in direct danger. Brandon made a decision to ride all the way to King's landing. If anything it was indirectly her fault.

[Mladen]

NOPE. Not true at all. Rhaegar was a prince with a lot of power. He could have easily captured Lyanna, who was 13/14 at the time, against her will. Even though it's unlikely it's still a possibility. We don't have enough information to determine whether Lyanna "betrayed her family" at all, much less if Lyanna and Sansa were the "same" at all in their choices.

Even if Lyanna had gone willingly that wouldn't be betraying her family. Sansa's decision not to tell the truth directly put Arya in jeopardy, but Lyanna's alleged decision did not put any members of her family in direct danger. Brandon made a decision to ride all the way to King's landing. If anything it was indirectly her fault.

Ned himself said that Lyanna's temper led her to death. In translation, Lyanna had very much active role in what has happened. And, even if we argue that we have no idea what happened, what would happen when we do find out. What would your opinion be about Lyanna if she indeed ran away with Rhaegar? Would that kick her off Stark list.

And if you argue that Lyanna's actions weren't treason, then in no sensible way one can argue that Sansa betrayed her family. Sansa never actually incriminated Arya. She said nothing. She didn't say Joffrey was right, something people forget. Silence was a poor attempt of being on everyone's side.

And are we seriously going to fool ourselves that if Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, she didn't put her entire family in danger?

[Joan Jett]

Ned himself said that Lyanna's temper led her to death. In translation, Lyanna had very much active role in what has happened. And, even if we argue that we have no idea what happened, what would happen when we do find out. What would your opinion be about Lyanna if she indeed ran away with Rhaegar? Would that kick her off Stark list.

And if you argue that Lyanna's actions weren't treason, then in no sensible way one can argue that Sansa betrayed her family. Sansa never actually incriminated Arya. She said nothing. She didn't say Joffrey was right, something people forget. Silence was a poor attempt of being on everyone's side.

And are we seriously going to fool ourselves that if Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, she didn't put her entire family in danger?

Lyanna's actions couldn't have been treason. And she didn't put anyone in direct danger. Sansa was testifying before the King and her sister Arya was in direct danger because she had struck and harmed a prince. From Sansa's pov Arya's fate and Joffrey's opinion of her depended on Sansa's testimony. She didn't know Joffrey's version of events, so her only two options were to tell the truth in definite favor of Arya or to lie in hopeful favor of Joffrey. She chose Joffrey over her family. Some might say that this qualifies as betrayal. I would agree.

[Lykos]

ShadowCat Rivers, well I've read that differently. Consider the situation.

• Arya has been missing for four days.
• Sansa had told Ned the "true" version of the event
• The mood at Darry is extremely tense
• Sansa must have noticed how worried her father was

Ned notices.

His eyes swept the room, searching for friendly faces. But for his own men, they were few enough. Ser Raymun Darry guarded his look well. Lord Renly wore a half smile that might mean anything, and old Ser Barristan was grave; the rest were Lannister men, and hostile.

Arya is charged by the Queen and Joffrey. Arya interrupts and banters with Joffrey. before she gets to give her account.

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke.

When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey's sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. "Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes."
Lord Renly stifled his laughter. "My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself." He bowed to Joffrey. "Perchance later you'll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river."

As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, "Lion's Tooth," and guffaw once more.

Then Joffrey tells his "very different version" of the story.

Sansa knows that Joffrey feels very humiliated by Renley's remarks and the reminder of treatment of "Lion's Tooth" will not have placated the hostile Lannisters. I'm absolutely certain that Sansa's tears are for fear of Arya's fate, and that she was going to try to explain the situation as a misunderstanding.

That Joffrey as she herself were slightly drunk and Joffrey mistook the practicing of Arya and Mycah as an attack and gallantly tried to save Arya, the damsel in distress.

Also, remember that it didn't help Dunk in any way that he was right and asked to help by Egg, when he beat up Aerion. And he had the brother of the accuser as witness.

[Isobel Harper]

Lyanna's actions couldn't have been treason. And she didn't put anyone in direct danger. Sansa was testifying before the King and her sister Arya was in direct danger because she had struck and harmed a prince. From Sansa's pov Arya's fate and Joffrey's opinion of her depended on Sansa's testimony. She didn't know Joffrey's version of events, so her only two options were to tell the truth in definite favor of Arya or to lie in hopeful favor of Joffrey. She chose Joffrey over her family. Some might say that this qualifies as betrayal. I would agree.

No, she doesn't choose either.

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see …"

[Joan Jett]

No, she doesn't choose either.

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see "

Not telling the truth and supporting Arya's version of events could only help Joffrey, the King's son. My point still stands.

[Mladen]

Lyanna's actions couldn't have been treason. And she didn't put anyone in direct danger. Sansa was testifying before the King and her sister Arya was in direct danger because she had struck and harmed a prince. From Sansa's pov Arya's fate and Joffrey's opinion of her depended on Sansa's testimony. She didn't know Joffrey's version of events, so her only two options were to tell the truth in definite favor of Arya or to lie in hopeful favor of Joffrey. She chose Joffrey over her family. Some might say that this qualifies as betrayal. I would agree.

Actually they could have. Robert could have done something. So, if she ran away, and based on Ned's words her own nature led her to her untimely death, same as Brandon, we can easily argue that she put her family in some sort of danger. After all, we all know how it all ended. And while I agree that Lyanna is not to blame for RR, one can't deny that her choice in traditional sense of the word was "betrayal". For me it wasn't just as Sansa's indiscretion with Cersei wasn't a treason but it had consequences.

As for Trident trial, Sansa did hear Joffrey's version. She knew very well what he said. She was on the room.

[Mladen]

Not telling the truth and supporting Arya's version of events could only help Joffrey, the King's son. My point still stands.

No, it doesn't. There is a huge difference between corroborating and not confirming either of the stories. We even have "The Hedge knight" example which actually show us on whose side law was. Sansa corroborating Arya's story - she struck first, would condemn Arya based on the enforced laws.

[Isobel Harper]

I'm waiting to see if the unkiss has to do with Sansa able to get inside someone's head.

She won't warg but maybe something else.

The UnKiss demonstrates Sansa's habit of "sugaring" the truth. (Sugaring bitter truths... Lemoncakes!) The development of the false memory seems to parallel Sansa's growing trust for LF, "sugaring" the truth about him.

Sansa realizes that LF has two "faces": Petyr, the affectionate (albeit creepy) side of Baelish, and Littlefinger, the plotting and devious side of Baelish. Sansa calls Baelish "Petyr" more than "Littlefinger" as her AFFC chapters progress and

she only refers to Baelish as "Littlefinger" once in the Alayne WoW sample chapter.

She instinctively mistrusts him, but chooses to bury her doubts about him. I think a sort of relationship (romantic or pseudo-familial) will develop between these two, although not a healthy one.

I also don't totally discredit the idea that Sansa can (semi-)warg people. There is a theory out there that Sansa is an empath, but unaware of it as of yet.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79630-is-sansa-an-empath/

[Lykos]

Oh, I forgot the biggest clue regarding what Sansa was trying to do. Thanks for reminding me Isobel Harper.

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone.

Sansa took great care how she appeared in front of court. Compare this to the situation when she pleas for mercy for her father.

She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all.

She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

[Isobel Harper]

Not telling the truth and supporting Arya's version of events could only help Joffrey, the King's son. My point still stands.

Not supporting either one is not supporting either one.

[Mladen]

Oh, I forgot the biggest clue regarding what Sansa was trying to do. Thanks for reminding me Isobel Harper.

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone.

Sansa took great care how she appeared in front of court. Compare this to the situation when she pleas for mercy for her father.

She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all.

She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

Silver chains are always dangerous for the wolves... :) Her wedding dress was also full of silver chains...

Also look at the situations when she wore the moonstones. It is interesting to see how jewelry is used to describe her wolfish nature.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

ShadowCat Rivers, well I've read that differently. Consider the situation.

• Arya has been missing for four days.

Sansa had told Ned the "true" version of the event

The mood at Darry is extremely tense

Sansa must have noticed how worried her father was

Ned notices.

Arya is charged by the Queen and Joffrey. Arya interrupts and banters with Joffrey. before she gets to give her account.

Then Joffrey tells his "very different version" of the story.

Sansa knows that Joffrey feels very humiliated by Renley's remarks and the reminder of treatment of "Lion's Tooth" will not have placated the hostile Lannisters. I'm absolutely certain that Sansa's tears are for fear of Arya's fate, and that she was going to try to explain the situation as a misunderstanding.

That Joffrey as she herself were slightly drunk and Joffrey mistook the practicing of Arya and Mycah as an attack and gallantly tried to save Arya, the damsel in distress.

Also, remember that it didn't help Dunk in any way that he was right and asked to help by Egg, when he beat up Aerion. And he had the brother of the accuser as witness.

I don't see anything at all that could indicate to such a way of thinking from Sansa's part. All in all, in her subsequent references to the incident --in her own POV-- she would have pointed out that part if it were true.

Joffrey was not making the decision there, and the harm to his pride is done, no matter what Sansa might say. His feelings are only relevent in regards to how he'd respond to Sansa, had she taken a pro-Arya stance.

Dunk and Egg is different, but yes, who was in the right never mattered. However, this is what the Trident "trial" was all about and in the end, Robert's conclusion was taking it into consideration: otherwise, it is absolutely clear to everyone (and by Arya's own admission) that she did hit Jeoffrey. If that was all that mattered, she'd have lost a hand right or wrong reasons not withstanding.

[Winter's Cold]

Not supporting either one is not supporting either one.

Choosing to not support your family is betrayal. Sansa's desire to be Joffrey's Queen and refusal to reveal the truth directly led to her direwolf's death.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

... There is a huge difference between corroborating and not confirming either of the stories. We even have "The Hedge knight" example which actually show us on whose side law was. Sansa corroborating Arya's story - she struck first, would condemn Arya based on the enforced laws.

This particular bit did not need Sansa's confirmation. It's not like Joffrey would say, "no, she was responding to my provocation". This was the part that both stories would agree on. The why is different, as well as poor Mycah's part.

I don't put the blame on Sansa for anything else than fooling herself, but I do think that it's a lapse of logic to posit that Sansa's role there was helpful in any form, to Arya's case.

[Mladen]

This particular bit did not need Sansa's confirmation. It's not like Joffrey would say, "no, she was responding to my provocation". This was the part that both stories would agree on. The why is different, as well as poor Mycah's part.

I don't put the blame on Sansa for anything else than fooling herself, but I do think that it's a lapse of logic to posit that Sansa's role there was helpful in any form, to Arya's case.

I believe she was trying to helping everyone and trying to be on everyone's side, including both Arya's and Joffrey's. But the scenario didn't allow it.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

No, ultimately it was Cersei's fault, she wanted the Direwolves dead.

People to blame in order of their contribution.

1. Cersei
2. Joffrey
3. King Bob
4. Eddard
5. Renley
6. Society
7. Arya
8. Sansa
9. and last Micah

Your list is perfect, except I would place Mycah's place at 1,000,009 on it. :thumbsup:

Um...how can you even say that? It's obvious that Sansa lied by pretending to not remember everything that happened. Sansa was definitely not "innocent" at all. Even Ned tries to justify Sansa's lie to Arya.

And Lady was going to die anyway. Ned did Lady a mercy.

It's all Sansa's fault? No blame for Ned? After all, Ned had heard the whole story from Sansa herself and he never spoke up. Wouldn't you think that, as head of the family and Sansa still a minor, he should have at least said something?

And after this incident, he just continued with the betrothal as if nothing had happened. Does that seem as if he blames Sansa at all in this matter? Isn't it probable that he "tries to justify Sansa's lie" because he's decided that Sansa still has to marry into the family and she has to be able to get along with them? Because can you imagine how being married to Joffrey would be after she had publicly accused him? Oh, yeah - lots of fun and games there.

Did Ned absolutely have to kill Lady? He had already arranged for a detachment of his men to bring the wolf's bones back for burial at Winterfell. Couldn't he have smuggled the live Lady back with them instead?

No blame for Cersei, who was so bound and determined to have some blood, come hell or high water, that she wasn't even bothered by the fact that the direwolf who was punished for the event wasn't even there? No blame for Robert, who put the desires of the wife he hates above his respect for his life-long friend?

Who was the parent in that situation? Who was the child? Who were the adults?

Just trying to broaden your horizons a little. :dunno:

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I believe she was trying to helping everyone and trying to be on everyone's side, including both Arya's and Joffrey's. But the scenario didn't allow it.

Well, unless Ned's description of the situation falls under the unreliable narrator category, resulting to totally misreading Sansa's body language, it seems that Sansa was simply trying to deflect a very stressful, difficult and unpleasent situation from her, not trying to help anyone:

“I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see...”

I expect that, someone who wants to have an active role in something, woulf not look like that and would try to elaborate more, try to come up with an alternative more conciliating version, things like that. It doesn't even matter if she would be successful or not.

Again, not blaming her. It wouldn't be fair to expect that from a little girl.

[Lykos]

ShadowCat Rivers, Sansa's subsequent thoughts on the incident are tinged by her blaming Arya for Lady's death.

Also I think I've noticed Martin being extremely selective about Sansa's thoughts to a point where it feels unnatural. It works best when the reader knows that Sansa is actively guarding her thoughts.

We have many cases were POV's don't dwell on their motivations and in this case it was hurtful for Sansa to remember this incident. It's a bit like Catelyn blaming herself for Rickard's actions after the release of Jaime only Sansa blames her sister.

Sansa prepared for the trial, she knew that was coming for four days, but I believe Renley blew her "strategy", which was just as Risto said, that's why she looked as though she wanted to bolt, that's the way I read it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

ShadowCat Rivers, Sansa's subsequent thoughts on the incident are tinged by her blaming Arya for Lady's death.

Also I think I've noticed Martin being extremely selective about Sansa's thoughts to a point where it feels unnatural. It works best when the reader knows that Sansa is actively guarding her thoughts.

We have many cases were POV's don't dwell on their motivations and in this case it was hurtful for Sansa to remember this incident. It's a bit like Catelyn blaming herself for Rickard's actions after the release of Jaime only Sansa blames her sister.

Sansa prepared for the trial, she knew that was coming for four days, but I believe Renley blew her "strategy", which was just as Risto said, that's why she looked as though she wanted to bolt, that's the way I read it.

Oh, it's exactly because of that, that I'd expect it mentioned, like "and to think I was trying to get you out of trouble..." It's one of the things that selective memory would prioritize to keep, I'd think.

I do not believe Sansa was expecting a trial or her participation in it for that matter, as Ned was surprised that this wasn't dealt with in a private meeting. I would not expect that Sansa (naive and sheltered as she was) would know any better. Sansa was busy enough all those days, working to reconcile the image of perfect prince Joffrey with what she witnessed of him, in her own mind.

I don't think she was working on strategies. Hell, they didn't even know in what condition they'd find Arya, to begin with.