Sansa is not a Stark

[Lykos]

Oh, it's exactly because of that, that I'd expect it mentioned, like "and to think I was trying to get you out of trouble..." It's one of the things that selective memory would prioritize to keep, I'd think.

I do not believe Sansa was expecting a trial or her participation in it for that matter, as Ned was surprised that this wasn't dealt with in a private meeting. I would not expect that Sansa (naive and sheltered as she was) would know any better. Sansa was busy enough all those days, working to reconcile the image of perfect prince Joffrey with what she witnessed of him, in her own mind.

I don't think she was working on strategies. Hell, they didn't even know in what condition they'd find Arya, to begin with.

Of course they were hoping to avoid a public trial and of course they were fearing the worst for Arya, that doesn't mean you don't prepare for the case where you need to make your case. If the bolded was true Ned must have lived in a different castle, considering the trust he put in Sansa as a witness.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If the bolded was true Ned must have lived in a different castle, considering the trust he put in Sansa as a witness.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

However, he did expect Sansa to tell the story she had told him earlier, that's in his POV. He called her to testify expecting that she'd simply do just that. Of course he should have thought of the conflict he was putting her through, but at that time he didn't.

[Grail King]

I disagree. If both Sansa and Arya had told the same story to Robert I think that he would have accepted it as the truth and blamed Joffrey mostly. By not telling the truth Sansa betrayed her family just so Joffrey wouldn't hate her.

I also believe that this event was included in GRRM's 1993 letter even though it was altered:

"Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue"

Obviously Sansa never married Joffrey or had his child, but the choice she made and later bitterly rued was the choice to lie in favor of Joffrey. As a result her wolf was killed, that's why she regrets her choice. Sansa is meant to be blamed.

Sansa told the truth and backed up Arya to her father, a day or two later when she was called before the King she wound up in a no win position, so she tried to be neutral and said she didn't remember, at this point Ned said nothing knowing what Sansa told him earlier. I like to know why someone as honourable as Ned Stark not call her on it, in the show Ned tells Arya that Sansa has to take Joff's side ( which clearly Sansa didn't do ) even if he is wrong, yet in the book nothing is said on what if anything Ned and Sansa talked about.

Sansa losing her wolf is on everyone but her and Mycah.

[Winter's Cold]

Sansa told the truth and backed up Arya to her father, a day or two later when she was called before the King she wound up in a no win position, so she tried to be neutral and said she didn't remember, at this point Ned said nothing knowing what Sansa told him earlier. I like to know why someone as honourable as Ned Stark not call her on it, in the show Ned tells Arya that Sansa has to take Joff's side ( which clearly Sansa didn't do ) even if he is wrong, yet in the book nothing is said on what if anything Ned and Sansa talked about.

Sansa losing her wolf is on everyone but her and Mycah.

If she can't be courageous and defend her family when it matters, then why does she deserve a direwolf? Decisions have consequences. She chose not to exonerate Arya and Nymeria and her direwolf paid the price.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Sansa told the truth and backed up Arya to her father, a day or two later when she was called before the King she wound up in a no win position, so she tried to be neutral and said she didn't remember, at this point Ned said nothing knowing what Sansa told him earlier. I like to know why someone as honourable as Ned Stark not call her on it, in the show Ned tells Arya that Sansa has to take Joff's side ( which clearly Sansa didn't do ) even if he is wrong, yet in the book nothing is said on what if anything Ned and Sansa talked about.

Sansa losing her wolf is on everyone but her and Mycah.

In public, he just wouldn't do it. You don't call your daughter a liar at court, unless you want to embarass her and make a fool of yourself at the same time. Afterwards... if you are a parent, it's more than likely you've done that mistake too: Ned feels guilty towards Sansa too, he failed her, he was not able to protect her and he put her in that position without considering her feelings to the person he chose for her... plus, she was grieving and he didn't want to rub wounds, so, he just let it go. It's a really problematic stance, to avoid addressing wrong behaviours because of "mitigating factors" and personal discomfort about the situation, but there you go... We've been there most of us, though for much less severe, not life-and-death situations (I would hope).

[Mladen]

In public, he just wouldn't do it. You don't call your daughter a liar at court, unless you want to embarass her and make a fool of yourself at the same time. Afterwards... if you are a parent, it's more than likely you've done that mistake too: Ned feels guilty towards Sansa too, he failed her, he was not able to protect her and he put her in that position without considering her feelings to the person he chose for her... plus, she was grieving and he didn't want to rub wounds, so, he just let it go. It's a really problematic stance, to avoid addressing wrong behaviours because of "mitigating factors" and personal discomfort about the situation, but there you go... We've been there most of us, though for much less severe, not life-and-death situations (I would hope).

Whenever I start thinking about Trident, I just over and over realize what a failure of parent Ned was at that moment. I mean, this is the guy who literally put his 11-year-old daughter in the place of the judge between her current and future family. Between her sister and her fiancee, future husband, father of her children, man he agreed she has to marry with. There wasn't a bit of rationale here... He messed this up, not in the way Robert and Cersei, but he naively and idiotically was pursuing the truth and he was ready to make his daughter a decider for the sake of it. And as we all come to the same conclusion, the truth was the least important here.

I do think that it was a huge problem that Sansa didn't actually see Joffrey, but well, she was her father's daughter through and through. Robert basically had to start killing children for Ned to realize some things. And we are talking about someone who is supposedly grown-up.

[Winter's Cold]

Also Sansa first pretends that she doesn't know what happened.

“I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as

though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see...”

Then the King and Queen decide to punish Lady due to the fact that Joffrey was injured and they don't know whose story is true. This is Sansa's response.

“He doesn’t mean Lady, does he?” She saw the truth on his face. “No,” she said. “No,

not Lady, Lady didn’t bite anybody, she’s good...”

“Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was

Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good,

I promise, I promise...”

So first she states that she doesn't know what happened when Arya and Nymeria are the accused. Then when it comes to her direwolf, she suddenly has a change of heart and states that Lady was not present at the time of the altercation. Why should they believe her now? Didn't she just state that she doesn't remember?

I don't see how Sansa does not have partial responsibility for her direwolf's demise.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

If she can't be courageous and defend her family when it matters, then why does she deserve a direwolf? Decisions have consequences. She chose not to exonerate Arya and Nymeria and her direwolf paid the price.

Except that the Baratheons are supposed to be her family too. By marrying into them, she is supposed to integrate into their family.

She really was caught between a rock and a hard place there.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Whenever I start thinking about Trident, I just over and over realize what a failure of parent Ned was at that moment. I mean, this is the guy who literally put his 11-year-old daughter in the place of the judge between her current and future family. Between her sister and her fiancee, future husband, father of her children, man he agreed she has to marry with. There wasn't a bit of rationale here... He messed this up, not in the way Robert and Cersei, but he naively and idiotically was pursuing the truth and he was ready to make his daughter a decider for the sake of it. And as we all come to the same conclusion, the truth was the least important here.

I do think that it was a huge problem that Sansa didn't actually see Joffrey, but well, she was her father's daughter through and through. Robert basically had to start killing children for Ned to realize some things. And we are talking about someone who is supposedly grown-up.

Well, more or less I agree.

I tend to be more forgiving towards Ned, as he was, at the time, terribly stressed and worried about his other kid's life (that was going on for four days, no sleep and all) and because, well, parents do screw up... what matters is whether their starting point is unconditional love for their children, and this indeed was Ned's first and foremost priority (my mother used to say, and oh, I hated it so, "you don't understand, not until you have children of your own" - but she was right...)

[Winter's Cold]

Except that the Baratheons are supposed to be her family too. By marrying into them, she is supposed to integrate into their family.

She really was caught between a rock and a hard place there.

The Starks are her family. Her family that she's spent twelve years of her life with. The Baratheons are strangers. She is a Stark of Winterfell not a Baratheon. If she chooses to not side with the Starks, why does she deserve a direwolf?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

In public, he just wouldn't do it. You don't call your daughter a liar at court, unless you want to embarass her and make a fool of yourself at the same time.

I agree (and with the rest of your post too) but I would add that Ned should never have called her up to say anything in the first place. He had heard her story - he could have (should have!) related it himself and just left her out of it entirely. Since he was the adult head of household and Sansa a minor child I think Ned would have been well within his rights to keep both Sansa and Arya away from the whole thing.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I agree (and with the rest of your post too) but I would add that Ned should never have called her up to say anything in the first place. He had heard her story - he could have (should have!) related it himself and just left her out of it entirely. Since he was the adult head of household and Sansa a minor child I think Ned would have been well within his rights to keep both Sansa and Arya away from the whole thing.

Well, about Arya he couldn't do anything. He couldn't keep her away, she was caught and brought to the king immediately.

Yes, he should have thought about what it meant to Sansa, but as I said in the post above, Ned was not in the condition to make the best judgement. This should be taken into account too.

[Isobel Harper]

The Starks are her family. Her family that she's spent twelve years of her life with. The Baratheons are strangers. She is a Stark of Winterfell not a Baratheon. If she chooses to not side with the Starks, why does she deserve a direwolf?

"Deserves?" Sansa's fault or no, it's silly to go to that extreme and say she didn't "deserve a direwolf."

[The Ned's Little Girl]

The Starks are her family. Her family that she's spent twelve years of her life with. The Baratheons are strangers. She is a Stark of Winterfell not a Baratheon. If she chooses to not side with the Starks, why does she deserve a direwolf?

You didn't actually read what I said, did you?

First of all, she didn't "side" or "not side" with anybody. Trying to maintain otherwise is simply a misreading of the story.

Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that it's reasonable for her to accuse her future husband of being a lying bully and then expect that everything will be hunky-dory with him when they marry and start making babies? Like, her asserting before the court that her betrothed is a cowardly sack of shit wouldn't be much of a stumbling block to them living together as husband and wife someday? Really?

I'm not even going to comment on the "why does she deserve a direwolf" crap.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Well, about Arya he couldn't do anything. He couldn't keep her away, she was caught and brought to the king immediately.

Yes, he should have thought about what it meant to Sansa, but as I said in the post above, Ned was not in the condition to make the best judgement. This should be taken into account too.

Oh, yeah, I had forgotten that Ned didn't see Arya until he got there. And good point about the second thing, too.

[Winter's Cold]

"Deserves?" Sansa's fault or no, it's silly to go to that extreme and say she didn't "deserve a direwolf."

She does not. She ties her direwolf up and then decides not to defend Arya and Nymeria. Where is her pack mentality? Arya defends Lady. Sansa does not defend Nymeria. I saw this as reason why Sansa's direwolf is dead and Arya's direwolf is alive. Lady's death was a result of her choosing the Baratheons over the Starks.

[sweetsunray]

Sansa's response when she understands Lady's gonna pay the price is actually the revealing part. Arya at least defends Lady, siding with Sansa, but Sansa villifies Arya and Nymeria immediately. So, sorry if I don't accept the "Sansa kept quiet to protect her sister" line of thought. Her own POV of the Trident incident is just rubbish - Joffrey is threatening Mycah with live steel and she tells Arya to stay out of it, and then when Arya hopes to save Mycah she starts shouting "You're ruining it". He's hounding, trashing, cursing and about to kill Arya, and Nymeria protects her and then she's all about "You leave him alone," and "my poor prince, look at what they did to you." She later tells Arya a version of how Mycah attacked the prince (well the prince demanded Mycah to fight him with his broom handle agianst live steel) and finally reveals how she truly felt since the incident, "They should have killed you instead of Lady." The last is not just an exclamation said in temper and meaningless. Both her POV at the Trident and Arya's "trial" at Darry's show already she blames Arya for all. I don't agree with the claim that Sansa is not a Stark, but she's incredibily selfish in such a way at the time that she doesn't care about some wacko prince almost killing her sister, and repeats that selfishness when she tells Cersei of Ned's intentions. She pays for the first betrayal against her own sibling with Lady (poor Lady) and for the second with ending up an abused hostage (poor Sansa). Neither Arya, Sansa, let alone Lady deserved any of that, but they are in part consequences of her own choices.

[Joan Jett]

Sansa's response when she understands Lady's gonna pay the price is actually the revealing part. Arya at least defends Lady, siding with Sansa, but Sansa villifies Arya and Nymeria immediately. So, sorry if I don't accept the "Sansa kept quiet to protect her sister" line of thought. Her own POV of the Trident incident is just rubbish - Joffrey is threatening Mycah with live steel and she tells Arya to stay out of it, and then when Arya hopes to save Mycah she starts shouting "You're ruining it". He's hounding, trashing, cursing and about to kill Arya, and Nymeria protects her and then she's all about "You leave him alone," and "my poor prince, look at what they did to you." She later tells Arya a version of how Mycah attacked the prince (well the prince demanded Mycah to fight him with his broom handle agianst live steel) and finally reveals how she truly felt since the incident, "They should have killed you instead of Lady." The last is not just an exclamation said in temper and meaningless. Both her POV at the Trident and Arya's "trial" at Darry's show already she blames Arya for all. I don't agree with the claim that Sansa is not a Stark, but she's incredibily selfish in such a way at the time that she doesn't care about some wacko prince almost killing her sister, and repeats that selfishness when she tells Cersei of Ned's intentions. She pays for the first betrayal against her own sibling with Lady (poor Lady) and for the second with ending up an abused hostage (poor Sansa). Neither Arya, Sansa, let alone Lady deserved any of that, but they are in part consequences of her own choices.

:agree:

The way Sansa spoke about Nymeria really rubbed me the wrong way. I wonder if she would even care if Nymeria had ended up being executed. :(

[AllOfTheHours]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here?

If Sansa had told the truth of the incident it would have been completely different from Sansa telling Robert some random thing like you stated. Why? because Arya had already told Robert what happened right after she was taken back to camp with no time to get her story straight with Sansa, the other witness. Without Sansa's testimony, Robert wouldn't know if Arya was lying or not. If Sansa had told the truth then both of their stories would have matched up and Robert would have known the truth. Instead Sansa lied, so Robert had to pick who to believe: his own son or Arya? That's why it was her fault.

LOL, no. King Bob chose the Crown Prince's story. As people have mentioned the price for striking a prince (regardless of whether he is a turd or not) is losing a hand at a minimum. Plus, King Bob didn't need Sansa's testimony, he admitted to Ned after Jamie stabbed him that he already knew Joffrey was guilty. From the moment Joffrey was accused he knew what kind of person his "son" was. He just chose to punish Lady to appease Cersei out of cowardice. And that is why Ned get's so pissed off, because King Bob is refusing to do the honorable and just thing, ie. sparring Lady's life and punishing Joffrey for being a turd.

Sansa lied by ommission. Cersei would have gunned for the direwolves first chance she got. She was young, she fancied herself in love and she was understandably foolish. But Lady's death is imo more on her than on Arya.

What I don't get is how Arya blamed over it more than Sansa? Joffrey bullied Mycah and could have hurt him or killed him for no other reason than he felt he could (and we know Joff is such a person). Arya and Mycah were doing nothing wrong. They were playing. Arya stood up for a friend, and if Nymeria had not interfered Joff might have killed her in his rage. Sansa's lucky it only cost her her wolf's life. Had it been Cersei, Arya might have been killed or maimed for striking a crown prince without provocation.

For the record, I don't blame Arya, but Arya blames herself in GoT right after Lady's death. She admits that she hated Joffrey and Cersei and Sansa, but she hated herself most. She asked Mycah to play with her. The whole fight started because Joffrey saw a lowly commoner like Mycah beating up and hurting a highborn lady like Arya (which is a crime and undermines the entire class/feudal system in Westeros). So he wanted to punish Mycah to impress Sansa/feel powerful (going back to the fact that Joffrey is a turd). If Arya had never asked Mycah to play at swords with her, none of this would ever have happened.

Is Arya a bad person? Hell no. Did her actions help set in motion her fight with Joffrey and Lady's death? Yes, in the same way Sansa's did. But a lot less than Cersei's action or King Bob's or Joffrey's.

Ned himself said that Lyanna's temper led her to death. In translation, Lyanna had very much active role in what has happened. And, even if we argue that we have no idea what happened, what would happen when we do find out. What would your opinion be about Lyanna if she indeed ran away with Rhaegar? Would that kick her off Stark list.

And if you argue that Lyanna's actions weren't treason, then in no sensible way one can argue that Sansa betrayed her family. Sansa never actually incriminated Arya. She said nothing. She didn't say Joffrey was right, something people forget. Silence was a poor attempt of being on everyone's side.

And are we seriously going to fool ourselves that if Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, she didn't put her entire family in danger?

I find it so bizarre that the Starks have been given a saintly status in ASoIaF. Ned's honor and refusal to use his brain against Cersei led to his death, his son's death, his wife's death and the deaths of thousands of Northmen. But at least they died with honor, right? Jon's words as LC in ADWD condemned Ned as a poor leader and lord (in my eyes) more than anything else in the series. He thinks, "His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor." Ned couldn't see past his own honor, he couldn't make the tough choices that would have prevented the War of the Five Kings and spared the slaughter/abuse of his family members. He chose his personal honor over the realm of men, and Westeros bled for it.

To say that being a "Stark"/"Starkness" is an honor (pun intended) that can only be earned and maintained through loyalty and good works is absolutely crazy and unfounded. The Starks are no better than the Baratheons or the Lannisters or the Targs, Ned just cared more about what people thought about him and his honor.

ShadowCat Rivers, well I've read that differently. Consider the situation.

Also, remember that it didn't help Dunk in any way that he was right and asked to help by Egg, when he beat up Aerion. And he had the brother of the accuser as witness.

Yep, I love how everyone who is anti-Sansa in this scene throws the laws out the window. Basically saying that she should have stuck it to the Crown Prince and the Queen! And if she had, then Arya wouldn't have been maimed (per the law, because justice is always greater than the laws in Westeros, right?), Lady wouldn't have died, and evil would have been banished from the realm forever.

But then the same people defend Arya for killing Daeron, and suddenly Arya was just upholding the laws of Westeros, being a true Stark, and she should end up Queen of Westeros because she is always upholding the laws of Westeros (even in a foreign country)~!!!

The double standard is intense and ridiculous. Sansa and Arya are two of my favs, and it just sickens me how people put Arya on a pedestal and throw Sansa into the cesspool, in the most hypocritical ways.

No, it doesn't. There is a huge difference between corroborating and not confirming either of the stories. We even have "The Hedge knight" example which actually show us on whose side law was. Sansa corroborating Arya's story - she struck first, would condemn Arya based on the enforced laws.

Exactly. :cheers:

It's all Sansa's fault? No blame for Ned? After all, Ned had heard the whole story from Sansa herself and he never spoke up. Wouldn't you think that, as head of the family and Sansa still a minor, he should have at least said something?

And after this incident, he just continued with the betrothal as if nothing had happened. Does that seem as if he blames Sansa at all in this matter? Isn't it probable that he "tries to justify Sansa's lie" because he's decided that Sansa still has to marry into the family and she has to be able to get along with them? Because can you imagine how being married to Joffrey would be after she had publicly accused him? Oh, yeah - lots of fun and games there.

Did Ned absolutely have to kill Lady? He had already arranged for a detachment of his men to bring the wolf's bones back for burial at Winterfell. Couldn't he have smuggled the live Lady back with them instead?

No blame for Cersei, who was so bound and determined to have some blood, come hell or high water, that she wasn't even bothered by the fact that the direwolf who was punished for the event wasn't even there? No blame for Robert, who put the desires of the wife he hates above his respect for his life-long friend?

Who was the parent in that situation? Who was the child? Who were the adults?

Just trying to broaden your horizons a little. :dunno:

:agree: Unfortunately blaming the adults would just be too rational. Why blame the people in power when you can blame the powerless children?

If she can't be courageous and defend her family when it matters, then why does she deserve a direwolf? Decisions have consequences. She chose not to exonerate Arya and Nymeria and her direwolf paid the price.

Oh goodness, I do love a good troll. It's been too long.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

She does not. She ties her direwolf up and then decides not to defend Arya and Nymeria. Where is her pack mentality? Arya defends Lady. Sansa does not defend Nymeria. I saw this as reason why Sansa's direwolf is dead and Arya's direwolf is alive. Lady's death was a result of her choosing the Baratheons over the Starks.

She didn't choose the Baratheons over the Starks, though. She didn't choose anything or anybody at all. She said she didn't know, it happened too fast, she didn't remember. Saying that she chose one "side" over the other is incorrect and a mis-reading of the text.

Honestly, this is not complicated in the least. She didn't do that.