Sansa is not a Stark

[Hugorfonics]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here?

If Sansa had told the truth of the incident it would have been completely different from Sansa telling Robert some random thing like you stated. Why? because Arya had already told Robert what happened right after she was taken back to camp with no time to get her story straight with Sansa, the other witness. Without Sansa's testimony, Robert wouldn't know if Arya was lying or not. If Sansa had told the truth then both of their stories would have matched up and Robert would have known the truth. Instead Sansa lied, so Robert had to pick who to believe: his own son or Arya? That's why it was her fault.

Firstly, Robert didn't choose to believe anyone. He'd "stake his life" that Joffrey lied.

More importantly, Sansa did not lie.

She was drunk

Traumatized

And happend a few days before

Robert says don't lie, so Sansa said I don't remember. That's probably the truth

Ned's a fool. So is his rationalizing

[sweetsunray]

She didn't choose the Baratheons over the Starks, though. She didn't choose anything or anybody at all. She said she didn't know, it happened too fast, she didn't remember. Saying that she chose one "side" over the other is incorrect and a mis-reading of the text.

Honestly, this is not complicated in the least. She didn't do that.

And a minute later she's shouting "Arya did it!"

[sweetsunray]

Firstly, Robert didn't choose to believe anyone. He'd "stake his life" that Joffrey lied.

More importantly, Sansa did not lie.

She was drunk

Traumatized

And happend a few days before

Robert says don't lie, so Sansa said I don't remember. That's probably the truth

Ned's a fool. So is his rationalizing

And yet she remembered it well enough to tell Ned a couple of days before that, and within a minute she's claiming "Arya did it! Nymeria did it!" So, she remembered all too well. She didn't want to tell.

[sweetsunray]

For the record, I don't blame Arya, but Arya blames herself in GoT right after Lady's death. She admits that she hated Joffrey and Cersei and Sansa, but she hated herself most. She asked Mycah to play with her. The whole fight started because Joffrey saw a lowly commoner like Mycah beating up and hurting a highborn lady like Arya (which is a crime and undermines the entire class/feudal system in Westeros). So he wanted to punish Mycah to impress Sansa/feel powerful (going back to the fact that Joffrey is a turd). If Arya had never asked Mycah to play at swords with her, none of this would ever have happened.

Is Arya a bad person? Hell no. Did her actions help set in motion her fight with Joffrey and Lady's death? Yes, in the same way Sansa's did. But a lot less than Cersei's action or King Bob's or Joffrey's.

Actually by that reasoning there's more blame on Sansa. When Sansa and Joffrey come upon Arya and Mycah fighting with sticks, Arya is described from Sansa's POV as a scrawny thing in soiled leathers... Even Sansa doesn't immediately recognize her. At first Joff just laughs, Mycah drops the stick and then Sansa blurts, "Arya?"

Joffrey then asks her "Your sister?" and inquires Mycah who he is, and the boy gives his name.

And again it's Sansa who blurts "He's the butcher's boy."

So, basically it's Sansa who reveals Mycah is a lowborn playing with sticks with her sister. If she wasn't so keen on exposing her sister and Mycah, Joff might not have been so interested in teaching Mycah a lesson.

[AllOfTheHours]

And yet she remembered it well enough to tell Ned a couple of days before that, and within a minute she's claiming "Arya did it! Nymeria did it!" So, she remembered all too well. She didn't want to tell.

Which is the truth.

Arya did hit Joffrey and Nymeria bit him. That's just the facts. Arya even says so too.

First people criticize her for witholding the truth (which she did, arguably, so as not to indict either Joffrey or Arya).

Then when she tells the truth she is criticized for doing that too. :bang:

[sweetsunray]

Which is the truth.

Arya did hit Joffrey and Nymeria bit him. That's just the facts. Arya even says so too.

First people criticize her for witholding the truth (which she did, arguably, so as not to indict either Joffrey or Arya).

Then when she tells the truth she is criticized for doing that too. :bang:

The question wasn't whether Arya hit him, but who started it. Her accusative response is more than saying the truth, it's misrepresenation and blaming... Arya didn't start it, and Nymeria either. Sansa instigated it by pointing out to Joffrey who the scrawny girl was and that Mycah was a butcher's boy, and Joffrey jumped on it. Arya and Nymeria only finished it. And Sansa knows it's not about Arya hitting Joff. Sansa overheard both versions - from Arya and Joff. Both versions confirm Arya did hit him and that Nymeria bit him. The question put to her was to corroborate the circumstances of it, by shouting a minute later "Arya did it!" she's saying Joffrey's version is the truth.

Besides, I responded to th ridiculous claim that Sansa did not remember... she remembers but very distortedly.

[AllOfTheHours]

Actually by that reasoning there's more blame on Sansa. When Sansa and Joffrey come upon Arya and Mycah fighting with sticks, Arya is described from Sansa's POV as a scrawny thing in soiled leathers... Even Sansa doesn't immediately recognize her. At first Joff just laughs, Mycah drops the stick and then Sansa blurts, "Arya?"

Joffrey then asks her "Your sister?" and inquires Mycah who he is, and the boy gives his name.

And again it's Sansa who blurts "He's the butcher's boy."

So, basically it's Sansa who reveals Mycah is a lowborn playing with sticks with her sister. If she wasn't so keen on exposing her sister and Mycah, Joff might not have been so interested in teaching Mycah a lesson.

So it's ok for Sansa to lie and pretend she doesn't know the truth when she's in the forrest. But it's not okay for her to play dumb at the trial? I mean, really? I don't mind Sansa being given some responsibility (I don't pretend that she's perfect by any means) but this is just getting hypocritical.

[sweetsunray]

So it's ok for Sansa to lie and pretend she doesn't know the truth when she's in the forrest. But it's not okay for her to play dumb at the trial? I mean, really? I don't mind Sansa being given some responsibility (I don't pretend that she's perfect by any means) but this is just getting hypocritical.

Because in the first not playing dumb she put Mycah's and Arya's life in danger, and by playing dumb she put Arya's life in danger again. And we know why - Sansa herself admits she wishes Arya were dead, and in her first chapter wishes Arya was a bastard child or a changeling.

[AllOfTheHours]

Because in the first not playing dumb she put Mycah's and Arya's life in danger, and by playing dumb she put Arya's life in danger again. And we know why - Sansa herself admits she wishes Arya were dead, and in her first chapter wishes Arya was a bastard child or a changeling.

I can accept that the first part is your opinion, and given that we read the book through POVs, I can respect that we have different interpretations. Although, once again, I think it's unfair to blame Sansa for revealing Arya, when there would be nothing to reveal if Arya wasn't sneaking around and breaking the rules/customs of the kingdoms. Especially when Arya herself steps up, owns up for her actions and takes responsiblity. A real leader can admit when they're wrong, and Arya is one, and it makes her stronger. Although I do think she is too hard on herself, it would diminish her character to take that responsibility away from her:

“She went to the window seat and sat there, sniffling, hating them all, and herself most of all. It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened.”

But the second part is just unfounded. Sansa never says Arya should be dead. Ned reports that "Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died." And she never wishes that Arya were dead. I just searched the text online and did some rereading to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything, but there is nothing to substantiate that Sansa ever admits she wants Arya dead. I have no idea where that idea came from.

Plus, the bastard or changeling comments aren't "wishes" at all. Here is the actual paragraph from GOT where this is mentioned:

"Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true."

Sansa "could never understand" why she and Arya were so different. If she was a "bastard" it would provide a reason in Sansa's opinion. But after Catelyn tells her that they're sisters she accepted it and "supposed it had to be true." Sansa never wishes her sister would suffer the stigma of being a bastard and she stopped questioning her maternity years ago, "when she was littler."

I'm not saying Sansa adored everything about Arya, she does wish in the text that she were more like sweet, courteous Myrcella. But that is very different than wishing she was a bastard or a changeling or dead.

[sweetsunray]

I can accept that the first part is your opinion, and given that we read the book through POVs, I can respect that we have different interpretations. Although, once again, I think it's unfair to blame Sansa for revealing Arya, when there would be nothing to reveal if Arya wasn't sneaking around and breaking the rules/customs of the kingdoms. Especially when Arya herself steps up, owns up for her actions and takes responsiblity. A real leader can admit when they're wrong, and Arya is one, and it makes her stronger. Although I do think she is too hard on herself, it would diminish her character to take that responsibility away from her:

But the second part is just unfounded. Sansa never says Arya should be dead. Ned reports that "Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died." And she never wishes that Arya were dead. I just searched the text online and did some rereading to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything, but there is nothing to substantiate that Sansa ever admits she wants Arya dead. I have no idea where that idea came from.

Plus, the bastard or changeling comments aren't "wishes" at all. Here is the actual paragraph from GOT where this is mentioned:

Sansa "could never understand" why she and Arya were so different. If she was a "bastard" it would provide a reason in Sansa's opinion. But after Catelyn tells her that they're sisters she accepted it and "supposed it had to be true." Sansa never wishes her sister would suffer the stigma of being a bastard and she stopped questioning her maternity years ago, "when she was littler."

I'm not saying Sansa adored everything about Arya, she does wish in the text that she were more like sweet, courteous Myrcella. But that is very different than wishing she was a bastard or a changeling or dead.

Search for the grapefruit scene... She says they should have killed Arya instead of Lady. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!" That's how Sansa's pretty dress gets ruined.

"It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon." She thinks this in the present and wishes it in the present, after Arya says "no" to the wheelhouse invitation. (imo Sansa ought to be happy embarrassing Arya isn't coming along. She'll "ruin" everything anyway). The changeling idea is indeed when she's littler - she asks her mother whether the grumkins stole her "true" sister. I didn't say it was all in the present. When she was younger she hoped her sister was a changeling baby, now she wishes she was a bastard, and after "hurting Joff" she wishes she were dead.

The reason I point out how Sansa can be seen as responsible for instigating Joffrey to fight Mycah and Arya is because if readers hold Arya responsible for Lady's death because she played with sticks with Mycah, then Sansa is just as well by revealing to Joffrey who they are. Both arguments are ridiculous, that was the point.

[AllOfTheHours]

Search for the grapefruit scene... She says they should have killed Arya instead of Lady. That's how Sansa's pretty dress gets ruined.

"It would have been easyer if Arye had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon." She thinks this in the present and wishes it in the present, after Arya says "no" to the wheelhouse invitation. (imo Sansa ought to be happy embarrassing Arya isn't coming along. She'll "ruin" everything anyway). The changeling idea is indeed when she's littler - she asks her mother whether the grumkins stole her "true" sister.

Well "would have been easier, if Arya had been" is past tense, past perfect actually. The idea that something could have been different in the past. Or are you referring to something else?

Also, I found the scene you pointed me to. Thank you for reminding me of it, because I was searching lol. But once again, I think this is up to interpretation. I'll just post it below so we can analyze it:

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

Septa Mordane came lurching to her feet. "Your lord father will hear of this! Go to your chambers, at once. At once!"

"Me too?" Tears welled in Sansa's eyes. "That's not fair."

"The matter is not subject to discussion. Go!"

So I can see your point. I had forgotten about this scene because I had taken it as comic relief. But I agree that she does yell at Arya and say, "You're horrible. They should have killed you instead of Lady." However, I don't take it literally that "she admits she wishes Arya were dead."

Sansa herself admits she wishes Arya were dead, and in her first chapter wishes Arya was a bastard child or a changeling.

She's having a tantrum and trying to be hurtful. Not the most attractive quality to be sure, but not an admittance that she is truly thinking of sororcide. I don't think she's in any way actually admitting that she wishes the Queen had taken Arya outside and slit her throat. Like Arya admits to Ned, Arya doesn't truly hate Sansa. Neither does Sansa truly hate Arya or actually want her dead.

Also, if she were truly threatening her sister in that way or saying something truly that hateful with full sincerity, than I'm pretty sure she would get why Septa Mordane thought she was being inappropriate. But, once again, that is my opinion.

Edit: Just wanted to say, I'm having fun discussing this with you and hopefully that comes across in my responses! :)

[Silverscream]

You're missing a line. Arya blamed herself for Mycah's death because Sansa and Jeyne put the blame on her, making her feel guilty.

She went to the window seat and sat there, sniffling, hating them all, and herself most of all. It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too.

But Ned himself told her that it wasn't her fault. And it's ridiculous to put the blame here on a child who just wanted to protect her friend. imo, it's just as bad as the people here who'll defend Joffrey of all people if it means justifying Sansa's actions.

[AllOfTheHours]

You're missing a line. Arya blamed herself for Mycah's death because Sansa and Jeyne put the blame on her, making her feel guilty.

But Ned himself told her that it wasn't her fault. And it's ridiculous to put the blame here on a child who just wanted to protect her friend. imo, it's just as bad as the people here who'll defend Joffrey of all people if it means justifying Sansa's actions.

Once again, I am only using the standards that GRRM himself has specifically given up to judge the girls' responsibility. Both Arya and Sansa contributed to the actions that took place in that scene and during the trial. They are not solely "to blame," but by GRRM's standards they share in responsibility for the outcome.

As GRRM stated:

Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death.

So GRRM himself said that Sansa has partial responsibility for her father's death. Of course she was a child too and Joffrey was the one who actually killed him and it was Cersei, LF, and Slynt who plotted his downfall even before that. But the fact that Cersei got the details about when the ship was coming for the girls from Sansa played a role (a very small one IMO) too.

As Sansa put it, “Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted her his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.” Even though Sansa was manipulated by Cersei, never intended for anything bad to happen to her father, and played a relatively minor role in his downfall GRRM believes she has to take partial responsibility for Ned's death.

Following this logic, did Arya intend for something bad to happen to Mycah? Never in a million years.

Did she help put him in a vulnerable position through her naivety? Yes. He wouldn't have been smacking a high born lady around with a stick a few miles from the entire royal procession if she hadn't asked him too.

Does she, as a result, bear partial responsibility by the standards GRRM's has stated above? Yes.

Is that harsh? Yes, most definitely, but he is the author and that is how he has told us to judge/understand his characters.

The fact that he wrote that Arya takes responsibility and learns from her naivety is a big win for her character (and makes her a more sympathetic Stark than Sansa for GRRM). The fact that Sansa can't take any responsibility initially (for Lady's death or Ned's) is something he judges makes her "unsympathetic." And the fact that she learns to "accept responsibility" for her small and accidental role in her father's death later makes her more sympathetic in GRRM's eyes. I think GRRM is a big fan of the idea that "the path to Hell is paved with good intentions," especially when it comes to the Starks.

[Isobel Harper]

Perhaps we could discuss other ways how Sansa's loss of her direwolf affects her instead of focusing how she acted in AGoT. She's had 23 chapters since that incident after all, and admits that trusting the Lannisters was a mistake.

Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again. ACoK, Sansa I.

So, what are some of the implications of Sansa losing her direwolf?

Anyone familiar with the Grimm fairytale, The Goose Girl, might notice similarities between the Princess' story and Sansa's. (You can click on the link if you wish to read the story.) Fairytales often feature someone or something magical to guide the protagonist - a Fairy Godmother, a talisman, etc. The Princess is challenged with finding self-efficacy alone instead of relying on magic (handkerchief, Falada) or a parental figure (King, Queen) to guide her. At the end of the Goose Girl, she basically "marries the prince and lives happily every after." The "happily every after" is the Princess' reward for growing up, for overcoming the challenge in her story. GRRM has set up Sansa to overcome the same challenge as the Princess. That is, her challenge is to grow up and discover self-efficacy alone. She is growing up and will eventually be "rewarded" too. I doubt she'll marry a prince, but there are other ways that GRRM could "reward" her. Perhaps she will bond to another warg animal? Finally return to Winterfell? Be reunited with her siblings?

Another implication of Sansa having lost her direwolf is the obvious physical protection that she lacks. In particular, this lack of protection might play a role when winter comes. Direwolves are one of the few animals that show no fear of wights and have been known to protect their warg against them.

[sweetsunray]

Well "would have been easier, if Arya had been" is past tense, past perfect actually. The idea that something could have been different in the past. Or are you referring to something else?

Also, I found the scene you pointed me to. Thank you for reminding me of it, because I was searching lol. But once again, I think this is up to interpretation. I'll just post it below so we can analyze it:

So I can see your point. I had forgotten about this scene because I had taken it as comic relief. But I agree that she does yell at Arya and say, "You're horrible. They should have killed you instead of Lady." However, I don't take it literally that "she admits she wishes Arya were dead."

She's having a tantrum and trying to be hurtful. Not the most attractive quality to be sure, but not an admittance that she is truly thinking of sororcide. I don't think she's in any way actually admitting that she wishes the Queen had taken Arya outside and slit her throat. Like Arya admits to Ned, Arya doesn't truly hate Sansa. Neither does Sansa truly hate Arya or actually want her dead.

Also, if she were truly threatening her sister in that way or saying something truly that hateful with full sincerity, than I'm pretty sure she would get why Septa Mordane thought she was being inappropriate. But, once again, that is my opinion.

Edit: Just wanted to say, I'm having fun discussing this with you and hopefully that comes across in my responses! :)

1) Come on! Most internal thoughts are written in past tense, except for some italic ones. "would have" in a past tense paragraph means "would"... So if a paragraph says "She would have liked a sister like that", right after "Why couldn't so and so" sentence, it means "she would like a sister like that". She means "would want Arya to be a bastard" at the time she thinks it. (I write myself too).

2) Lady's going to be killed, and she starts shouting "It was Arya!". Sounds to me she has no problems with it if someone were to say... "Ok, we'll kill Arya instead of Lady," right then and there. It is exactly this act that reveals her exclamation of wishing Arya was killed instead of Lady during the grapefruit incident is more than a temper tantrum (a point I already made several posts ago) and saying mean things. That moment she's wearing her heart on her slieve.

3) Her whole internal monologue before setting out for the wheelhouse is about "Arya never gets punished for not behaving like a lady," and Sansa telling Joff who she and Mycah are is her way of making sure Arya "won't get away with it". The moment she recognizes Arya she acts in order to expose her sister. That it nearly gets her sister killed be damned.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1) Come on! Most internal thoughts are written in past tense, except for some italic ones. "would have" in a past tense paragraph means "would"... So if a paragraph says "She would have liked a sister like that", right after "Why couldn't so and so" sentence, it means "she would like a sister like that". She means "would want Arya to be a bastard" at the time she thinks it. (I write myself too).

2) Lady's going to be killed, and she starts shouting "It was Arya!". Sounds to me she has no problems with it if someone were to say... "Ok, we'll kill Arya instead of Lady," right then and there. It is exactly this act that reveals her exclamation of wishing Arya was killed instead of Lady during the grapefruit incident is more than a temper tantrum (a point I already made several posts ago) and saying mean things. That moment she's wearing her heart on her slieve.

3) Her whole internal monologue before setting out for the wheelhouse is about "Arya never gets punished for not behaving like a lady," and Sansa telling Joff who she and Mycah are is her way of making sure Arya "won't get away with it". The moment she recognizes Arya she acts in order to expose her sister. That it nearly gets her sister killed be damned.

The last sentence is a bit of a stretch, unless you can provide an example from the text that Sansa recognized that Arya not getting away with it included the possibility of her being killed and that Sansa didn't care about that possibility.

[Hugorfonics]

And yet she remembered it well enough to tell Ned a couple of days before that, and within a minute she's claiming "Arya did it! Nymeria did it!" So, she remembered all too well. She didn't want to tell.

We don't know what she told Ned,let's assume it's Aryas story. Regardless they had this conversation immediately afterwards, while it was still in her memory.

Within the next few days she justified her drunkenness with love and Joffreys hate with Aryas fault.

She doesn't have to know the details to know it's Aryas fault. Arya ruins everything.

She was not 100% sure, so she told the king her safest answwr, because it's a sin to lie before a king

[Jak Scaletongue]

Also, I found the scene you pointed me to. Thank you for reminding me of it, because I was searching lol. But once again, I think this is up to interpretation. I'll just post it below so we can analyze it:

So I can see your point. I had forgotten about this scene because I had taken it as comic relief. But I agree that she does yell at Arya and say, "You're horrible. They should have killed you instead of Lady." However, I don't take it literally that "she admits she wishes Arya were dead."

She's having a tantrum and trying to be hurtful. Not the most attractive quality to be sure, but not an admittance that she is truly thinking of sororcide. I don't think she's in any way actually admitting that she wishes the Queen had taken Arya outside and slit her throat. Like Arya admits to Ned, Arya doesn't truly hate Sansa. Neither does Sansa truly hate Arya or actually want her dead.

I find this scene to be one of the most polarizing here - but to be honest, when reading it, it sounds EXACTLY like hundreds of arguments my brother and I had (usually while doing dishes!) growing up. We were 2 years apart, almost exactly. He is younger than me. And my god, I don't know how many times we threatened each other (yes, the classic line "I'll kill you" was overused in our house). I remember wishing he was adopted, or I was adopted (my mental modern equivalent to "bastardy" in Westeros). We'd threaten bodily harm and death - oddly enough though we didn't often stray into the physical violence, mostly just words (though there were a few times it ended in fisticuffs!). And we had your average, "normal" childhoods - responsible parents, not rich but not poor, small town, large extended family we saw often. Nothing out of the ordinary - just two normal siblings with normal arguments and normal threats that were never carried out (not the big ones anyway - I'm sure I took the heads off a few GI Joes and a couple of my Barbies got haircuts).

Long story short - sounds EXACTLY like two siblings, close in age, having a normal argument with normal threats with no intentions of following through with said threats. She's just trying to sound tough, in control - just because their lives sucked so bad that Sansa's mistake DID nearly get her sister killed doesn't automatically mean that Sansa was actually out to get Arya killed. As AOTH said, Sansa had a tantrum, basically - she was being immature and unreasonable but most kids that age are. Children aren't really known for their self-control, and puberty sneaking up on Sansa sure wasn't doing anything to help!

It also seems to me that had something like this happened at Winterfell (I'm sure it did, but I mean a POV), Ned would have had his little talk with Arya but Sansa would probably had a little talk with Catelyn - which she didn't have in King's Landing, so she went to the next best thing, her future mother-in-law, with no idea about the power-plays Ned and Cersei were playing at (which Ned didn't think Sansa needed to know). Sansa needed a "mother" to talk to, hers wasn't there so she went to the only other "mother" she knew in King's Landing (Septa Mordane IS NOT a "mother" figure, she's a teacher and a servant, someone Sansa has to listen to but not necessarily someone Sansa would pour her heart out to).

That's another thing that ticks me off - if Ned had told Sansa something, anything, about some of the issues plaguing him then *maybe* she would have kept her mouth shut a little around Cersei. He didn't have to tell her everything, but he simply tells her she's to marry Joffrey. End of story. No words of caution about keeping her mouth shut, no words of caution about not getting too close until the two of them are actually married, no words of caution that him and Cersei are at each others throats - he tells her nothing and yet everyone reading the books expects that she should know all this without her father warning her that shit is going down. Nothing except "you're leaving." She reacted exactly the way any kid does when they don't want to do something - mom tells me it's time to leave grandma's, well let's go ask grandma her opinion - maybe she'll say I can stay (it sometimes worked ;)). My daughter tries the same thing. Sansa didn't want to leave, her father didn't tell her why she had to leave, so she went and asked Cersei if she could stay, BECAUSE SHE HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON!

[sweetsunray]

I find this scene to be one of the most polarizing here - but to be honest, when reading it, it sounds EXACTLY like hundreds of arguments my brother and I had (usually while doing dishes!) growing up. We were 2 years apart, almost exactly. He is younger than me. And my god, I don't know how many times we threatened each other (yes, the classic line "I'll kill you" was overused in our house). I remember wishing he was adopted, or I was adopted (my mental modern equivalent to "bastardy" in Westeros). We'd threaten bodily harm and death - oddly enough though we didn't often stray into the physical violence, mostly just words (though there were a few times it ended in fisticuffs!). And we had your average, "normal" childhoods - responsible parents, not rich but not poor, small town, large extended family we saw often. Nothing out of the ordinary - just two normal siblings with normal arguments and normal threats that were never carried out (not the big ones anyway - I'm sure I took the heads off a few GI Joes and a couple of my Barbies got haircuts).

Long story short - sounds EXACTLY like two siblings, close in age, having a normal argument with normal threats with no intentions of following through with said threats. She's just trying to sound tough, in control - just because their lives sucked so bad that Sansa's mistake DID nearly get her sister killed doesn't automatically mean that Sansa was actually out to get Arya killed. As AOTH said, Sansa had a tantrum, basically - she was being immature and unreasonable but most kids that age are. Children aren't really known for their self-control, and puberty sneaking up on Sansa sure wasn't doing anything to help!

It also seems to me that had something like this happened at Winterfell (I'm sure it did, but I mean a POV), Ned would have had his little talk with Arya but Sansa would probably had a little talk with Catelyn - which she didn't have in King's Landing, so she went to the next best thing, her future mother-in-law, with no idea about the power-plays Ned and Cersei were playing at (which Ned didn't think Sansa needed to know). Sansa needed a "mother" to talk to, hers wasn't there so she went to the only other "mother" she knew in King's Landing (Septa Mordane IS NOT a "mother" figure, she's a teacher and a servant, someone Sansa has to listen to but not necessarily someone Sansa would pour her heart out to).

That's another thing that ticks me off - if Ned had told Sansa something, anything, about some of the issues plaguing him then *maybe* she would have kept her mouth shut a little around Cersei. He didn't have to tell her everything, but he simply tells her she's to marry Joffrey. End of story. No words of caution about keeping her mouth shut, no words of caution about not getting too close until the two of them are actually married, no words of caution that him and Cersei are at each others throats - he tells her nothing and yet everyone reading the books expects that she should know all this without her father warning her that shit is going down. Nothing except "you're leaving." She reacted exactly the way any kid does when they don't want to do something - mom tells me it's time to leave grandma's, well let's go ask grandma her opinion - maybe she'll say I can stay (it sometimes worked ;)). My daughter tries the same thing. Sansa didn't want to leave, her father didn't tell her why she had to leave, so she went and asked Cersei if she could stay, BECAUSE SHE HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON!

Except that I'm pretty sure when you had such a temper tantrum with threats it wasn't after you saw someone threaten your sibling with a knife/sword, had some type of executioner hanging around with their tongue cut out that scares you shitless, or a violent misfigured hulk of guy who cut the neighbor's boy in half and then cut him up in pieces into a bag to deliver him as meat to the father, and that the other neighbour demanded your pet dog being put down.

Sansa did not know the extent of what went on between her father and Cersei, fully agree and Ned failed her in that, except he does tell her during the news he drops in on her that it's for safety reasons they need to return home. She knows Cersei demanded the death of Lady, and Jeyne Poole couldn't stop talking with glee in detail how the Hound had butchered Mycah (pun intended). She has seen and witnessed violence. And she knew her father wouldn't break up the engagement over nothing.

[sweetsunray]

We don't know what she told Ned,let's assume it's Aryas story. Regardless they had this conversation immediately afterwards, while it was still in her memory.

Within the next few days she justified her drunkenness with love and Joffreys hate with Aryas fault.

She doesn't have to know the details to know it's Aryas fault. Arya ruins everything.

She was not 100% sure, so she told the king her safest answwr, because it's a sin to lie before a king

By Ned's POV we can assume it's Arya's story. Repeating events we witnessed as conversation passed on in the next chapter is bad writing anyway.

Again she was sure enough. She wouldn't have been blaming Arya a minute later.

By Sansa's pov just the mere existence of Arya ruins everything, even though Arya has learned to do her own thing and stay out of Sansa's way. Pretty clear that Sansa and especially Jeyne Poole used to show Arya she was not wanted. Sansa is praised all the time, has Jeyne Poole and Beth and others fawning over her. She never wanted her sister to exist and now that the sister has gotten the message and tries to have a life of her own and leave Sansa to do whatever she likes to do, it's still not enough, and basically Arya must be punished for not fawning over. Nothing Arya ever could have done would have been good enough - Jeyne Poole guarding her best friend position around Sansa, Sansa herself and the septa made sure of that.