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Cavendish

Sansa is not a Stark

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That hardly makes it mysgonistic. That word seems to be a fan favorite for several sansanistas. It's a rather lazy way to respond to a POV you don't agree with.

Well the thing is the person is dead wrong about her being "Sansa Lannister" by law. GRRM has said high born ladies choose their name after marriage, and Sansa has not done that. She's done the complete opposite.

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Well the thing is the person is dead wrong about her being "Sansa Lannister" by law. GRRM has said high born ladies choose their name after marriage, and Sansa has not done that. She's done the complete opposite.

Actually he says there's no consistent approach. But either way, being wrong doesn't make you mysoginistic, especially when the error (if there is one) isn't meant to be destructive to women. That's my point. The OP isn't showing hatred or mistreatment to Sansa because she is a woman. That just doesn't fly in this instance. The OP is very well thought out and presents one opinion based on the reading of the text. That's all. The fact that it's a different opinion from other posters doesn't make it mysogistic. Enough of that already.

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Enhanced by the fact that ''Sansa Lannister'' is never mentioned in the series

Does not Stannis refer to Sansa as Lady Lannister twice while swearing to Jon that Tyrion/Sansa will not get Winterfell while he (Stannis) lives? There are obviously characters in series who see her as Sansa Lannister since she is married to Tyrion Lannister.

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Actually he says there's no consistent approach. But either way, being wrong doesn't make you mysoginistic, especially when the error (if there is one) isn't meant to be destructive to women. That's my point. The OP isn't showing hatred or mistreatment to Sansa because she is a woman. That just doesn't fly in this instance. The OP is very well thought out and presents one opinion based on the reading of the text. That's all. The fact that it's a different opinion from other posters doesn't make it mysogistic. Enough of that already.

The error seems to have come from just the assumption that she is legally a Lannister because she was married and not actual looking into it.

I suppose we just have different for "well thought out," since this author has left out large paragraphs and lines from Sansa that are directly related to her personal identity as a Stark.

Does not Stannis refer to Sansa as Lady Lannister twice while swearing to Jon that Tyrion/Sansa will not get Winterfell while he (Stannis) lives? There are obviously characters in series who see her Sansa Lannister since she is married to Tyrion Lannister.

A guy who has never met Sansa and has reason to hate Tyrion? He said this to coerce Jon to take his offer. He's hardly the authority on if Sansa is a Stark or Lannister.

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Does not Stannis refer to Sansa as Lady Lannister twice while swearing to Jon that Tyrion/Sansa will not get Winterfell while he (Stannis) lives? There are obviously characters in series who see her as Sansa Lannister since she is married to Tyrion Lannister.

One has to blind or mentally incapable not to notice Stannis's intentions by naming Sansa "Lady Lannister." Curious that he doesn't name Arya "Lady Bolton" when he's gathering support to "free" her.

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According to this, Ned who never had a direwolf was never a Stark?

And if Sansa is meant to die, GRRM would have killed her long time ago. She basically had no purpose in great sceme. Which brings the conclusion, she will have a significant role.

Good point, but I think that is different.The direwolves seem to exist as a metaphor for the Stark children. That isn't to say that previous Starks without a direwolf weren't Starks, but that these particular children were bonded to plot driven pets at a young age. It is simply a writing technique to portray the fate of the Starks, as well as the effect it has on them.

Out of those who do have direwolves, we of course have Sansa, along with Robb, Jon, Arya, Bran and Rickon. On the face of it, one could say that Greywind is dead and so is Robb- creating the link. But it goes deeper than that. Robb rejected his bond to Greywind in many ways, isolating him from his wolf. I feel that here Martin showed us (and pushed home in Cat's POV) the importance of keeping the wolves around, and the dangers of neglecting the bond (I'll come back to this later). Jon and Ghost have a similar connection, and it is interesting to note that Jon would have been killed by the wildlings before returning to Castle Black after he sent away Ghost had it not been for Bran and Summer turning up.

The relationship between Bran and Summer is obvious to all, what with Bran fully realising his warging powers. Bran kmew to keep Summer close, and even Robb realised that the mere sound of him howling was enough to raise Bran's vitals whilst in his coma. Finally we have Rickon. I actually feel that Rickon has gone the other way, and is losing to his wolf in terms of become more like the beast than the man, something both Jojen and Bloodraven warned Bran about. This is something that I can't really allow to back up my point until we discover whether or not Rickon has been eaten by Skagosi cannibals, but I doubt that is the case!

As to whether she'll die, I don't think she'll die in WOW, but I do think she'll go in ADOS. I pray I'm wrong, but I feel that she will really make a massive impact on the last two books, before dying at the end. As to why this will be, I feel (althought once again I'd be happy to be wrong) that she will become one of the people she hates the most- A cold hearted player of the game- and will be brought down by the people she started out trying to protect. I have no evidence for that bit, but I think it would be a logical turn of events what with how she is morphing into Littlefinger V2.

I second that. I don't think it may hint if she will live or die in the near future, but it clearly has to do with identity. It's not a coincidence if the Stark children that had to use an alias are the two daughters who were separated early from their direwolves. And I find Arya's case more significative than Sansa's. Not only she doesn't acknowledge that the wolf she's warging is Nymeria, but even when she actually sees her, fleeing Harrenhal with Gendry and Hot Pie, she doesn't suppose it could be her ! I find this really startling.

Thanks, and I see your point. As this theory suggests, Sansa does not have to die to compensate the loss of her direwolf, but something has to happen to make her at the very least lose the part of her that came from her Stark background.

I will just say this: Sansa is my favourite Stark.

I bow to your wisdom.

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Will someone tell me what exactly a ''Stark'' is? Because this recent lot seem nothing like the ones in the world book, so is this entire generation not Starks? Or were the previous countless generation not Starks and only Ned and his kids are the true Starks? Is a Stark only someone with a wolf or wolf's blood?


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For those you who are confused about my thread, it's simple really:



1.) I chose the title to get people's attention, it by no means shows what I truly think.


2.) I posted someone thoughts I found, I want people to discuss it.



I don't see the issue, if people really are lost, I can edit my OP and say the real title is... "title here". If people really believe I think Sansa is a Lannister, you either haven't seen even one out of my 50+posts, missed the very first sentence in this threads post, or "insert something else here" :dunno:



Anyways I will be reading your posts MLaden, they always are a delight ;)


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It isn't the direwolf that brings the ability to warg. They appear to be catalysts though

The ability to warg is hereditary within all Starks, but shown more in some than others. This current generation is picking up on what seems to be coming to the fore in the previous generation.

Bran is clearly the more advanced, which appears enhanced by his being a 'broken thing'. Certain senses can be more attuned when one is missing, or weaker.

Rickon may be the next most advance as he's young, impressionable and open. (Get them while they're young.)

Robb is clearly described as wolf-like in battle circumstances.

Jon has become aware of warging abilities.

Arya hasn't yet worked out what her wolf-dreams are.

Sansa exhibits the least, seemingly no ability.

Does it appear that males are more susceptible than females in this generation? Lyanna may have been the most susceptible in the previous generation.

The ability was always there, dormant, waiting to be woken. A direwolf being present, or nearby, is the perfect host to move into, as we've seen demonstrated. I think this shows the origin of The Starks. They are of The First Men, and also of the Children of the Forest.

Outwardly, they have First Men ancestry. Inwardly, that's where their ancestry from the Children of the Forest resides.

Curiously, the family lines into which Starks have married also have animal connections. Tully = fish. Whent = bat.

How does it go....? All that walk upon the earth. All that swim in the oceans. All that fly in the sky.

Sounds like those Stark kids could be powerful given whichever 'medium' they could enter. Bran will fly. How about Rickon summoning kraken? Sansa simply needs a catalyst. A little bird, perhaps. Let's try.... a robin. Uh-oh! What if she goes into Sweetrobin as Bran did with Hodor? If it goes wrong....? Or.... Sansa really goes to the Dark Side, Star Wars style?

Sansa's arc isn't a mirror of her siblings, or whoever Jon is to her (cousin? just a bastard after all). Hers is complimentary. Its reflective of stages and ages of an inter-related ability. What if Bran helps things move along? What if Sansa develops green-seeing abilities instead? Even though they are separated, The Stark Kids are still intertwined. Something sparks a memory to remind them as well.

The North Remembers!

Sansa will remember.... what to say, at an appropriate time. Sansa is a Stark, a Stark of Winterfell.

I like this a lot, especially when you brought in the Whent aspect. I've seen some theories regarding Sansa and Harrenhal.

What on earth about the OP is misogynistic? Is it just because it focuses on a female character? Please explain how it shows hatred or mistreatment of women?

I completely disagree with this. Sansa is on the same type of arc as her siblings. She is on her own apprenticed to someone that seems to have nefarious intentions towards her to learn a specific skill that will more than likely be needed to help herself, the Starks and perhaps all of Westeros. All of the siblings are dealing with the same situation.

As for the OP, Sansa has definitely sought out her identitiy as a Stark of Winterfell after her father lost his head however it remains to be seen what the fallout will be of having lost her direwolf. There must be some consequence or they wouldn't have been included in such an important way. I suspect it means she'll be cut off from the mystical side of things since the connection with the wolves is a magical one. She'll be firmy rooted in reality which really makes sense for her arc considering she began with her head full of songs and fairytales. Bran, Arya and Jon are already interacting with the magic of Planetos while Sansa is interacting in the realm of men.

...But on the other hand, this seems right... I could totally see G.R.R.M disconnecting her from the supernatural aspect of herself. It's almost ironic, the one who believed in songs and etc is the one who gets chained to reality while the others who understood what was going on end up doing things that aren't normally thought to be realistic or etc.

--

Either way as long as Sansa is not dead I'm happy.

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Just came from airport and saw the title, so posting before I read the entire thread, for the most part, the people in the know from KL to the North would recognize Sansa Stark, the Hound will know her, HR will know her, some of the men in the BWB will know her, if they meet, LSH,Pod,Brienne will know her but; most of all if they come across her, Nymeria, Summer and Shaggydog will know her.


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I don't know that her missing wolf will play into the story, I think it's more symbolic. Sansa's wolf is dead and her Starkiness is dying as well. She's becoming deceptive instead of honorable. She's becoming uncaring and cruel instead of compassionate. She's becoming selfish instead of selfless.

On the other side of the coin is Arya whose wolf is lost. She's actively trying to forget who she is, but since her wolf is alive and only lost, she's symbolically holding onto who she is better. She will regain her identity, but Sansa will not.

Really?

The history of house Stark has been a hard but fair rulers, doing what needs to be done, only recently has honourable been added and that is because Ned was raised by Jon Arryn.

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Actually it's very possible that Sansa might choose to remain Alayne.

We know that there is quite a bit of foreshadowing that she will help rebuild Winterfell. The only problem with the reconstruction is that it will be extremely costly and the Iron bank is calling in the loans, not handing any out. Should LF die, Alayne, his only known daughter, would be first in line to collect all that gold he has horded since King Bob's rule. Alayne could then be the one to finance the reconstruction project.

Another interesting thought is that she might chose to remain LF's daughter so that no one would want to marry her just for her claim. In ASOS & AFFC she seems to be very saddened by the notion of political marriages. So by being Alayne chances are that her suitor would marry her for love and not a title.

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Actually it's very possible that Sansa might choose to remain Alayne.

We know that there is quite a bit of foreshadowing that she will help rebuild Winterfell. The only problem with the reconstruction is that it will be extremely costly and the Iron bank is calling in the loans, not handing any out. Should LF die, Alayne, his only known daughter, would be first in line to collect all that gold he has horded since King Bob's rule. Alayne could then be the one to finance the reconstruction project.

Another interesting thought is that she might chose to remain LF's daughter so that no one would want to marry her just for her claim. In ASOS & AFFC she seems to be very saddened by the notion of political marriages. So by being Alayne chances are that her suitor would marry her for love and not a title.

Possibly, I would call that a sacrifice which could tie in with Lady's death.

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Actually it's very possible that Sansa might choose to remain Alayne.

We know that there is quite a bit of foreshadowing that she will help rebuild Winterfell. The only problem with the reconstruction is that it will be extremely costly and the Iron bank is calling in the loans, not handing any out. Should LF die, Alayne, his only known daughter, would be first in line to collect all that gold he has horded since King Bob's rule. Alayne could then be the one to finance the reconstruction project.

Another interesting thought is that she might chose to remain LF's daughter so that no one would want to marry her just for her claim. In ASOS & AFFC she seems to be very saddened by the notion of political marriages. So by being Alayne chances are that her suitor would marry her for love and not a title.

Anyone who wants to marry her for love as Alayne would also marry her for love as Sansa, so why exactly would she need to remain Alayne in order to have someone want to marry her for love? Assuming that she's able to see through their motives, of course. The issue is whether she has enough power to decide who she will or will not marry, and not have others treat her as pawn. Being a bastard doesn't give you a lot of power, either, she saw that when Marillion tried to rape her - and if she had not been under LF's protection and therefore had Brune to defend her, she would have fared no better than the other servants that Marillion tried to rape. ASOIAF is not a series that romanticizes the position and life of lower classes. And as LF's "natural daughter", she is still not safe from people trying to marry her off - LF is doing that with the Harry the Heir plan.

Considering the Snow Castle scene, her memories of Winterfell and her famioy, "I'm stronger within the walls of Winterfell", Sansa asserting in her internal thoughts she is Eddard Stark's daughter and "blood of Winterfell", references to wolves and Jon in her latest chapter, I really don't see her deciding to give up her Stark identity for good.

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I give 5 000 000 dollars to person who finds me "Sansa Lannister" in books. No, seriously find me where these two words are used together at one instance in the series and I will give you the money. And please offer the same for "Sansa Stark" AFTER the marriage...

Not so fair :)

And here I am. The post is, IMO, a misogynist BS. Sansa rejected Tyrion like a true Stark, like a daughter of FIrst Men, like a "not a kneeler".

And beside, have you read the snow castle scene? That was reiterating-Stark identity as there was one.

When I see things being built from snow, normally they are left standing. They are left there through the winter and they melt away when the weather warms. Sansa needed Littlefinger's help to build the castle and it was destroyed in the same scene that it was made; this left me with the impression that the castle scene was negative.

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Ned never had a direwolf. => Ned was never a Stark. He never had the Starkness.

Brandon and Lyanna never had direwolves => They never had the Starkness. They were not Starks.

None of the Starks for many centuries had direwolves = > They weren't Starks.

Seems legit... :drunk:

What Lannister influences?

Wait, what? How does comparing her to Arya make her a non-Stark?

The logic I mocked above is competely ridiculous, but I could see where the flawed reasoning comes from. But this, I don't even understand how its supposed to work?

I do think Lady's death may mean that Sansa will lose her Stark-identity(if she already hasn't); however, I don't believe that direwolves specifically represent Stark-identity. The direwolf represents the Starks in a more broad sense. In this way the Starks not having direwolves for centuries can mean that something fundamental to the family has been lost or forgotten.

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Horrible clickbait titlte aside the article in the OP makes some good points and deserves civil discussion.



Sansa's storyline is one of repressed Stark identity. Now, obviously she does see herself as Stark and has moments where she tries to reconnect with her past but she also is the daughter of a traitor, a hostage to her enemies. Then forced to marry Tyrion, a marriage which could end up her death, after the Stark family is considered largely dead (other than Snow). At least that is the official story. Then she becomes Alayne and at this point she starts some times to internalize the Alayne identity.



While obviously being a Stark doesn't mean you need a direwolf, there are several quotes in the books for the direwolves importance for the Stark kids which got them. The fact that Sansa lost her direwolf counts to something and might be a clue to her fate. I don't think GRRM added Ned's guilt for Sansa losing her direwolf without that being a hint to something. Perharps she is fated to never return north and live her life mixed in southern politics or maybe it is about what has already happened, her being in the lion's den and then as Alayne with repressed identity. In any case there is something there, and room for speculation.



Arya who also is far from her direwolf also has some similiar themes going on.



Oh and personally I don't consider Tyrion, Sansa, Daenerys, Jon, Arya, whoever safe from death. And I am not talking of old age. GRRM won't kill them just because and obviously their storyline is going somewhere but they still can die.


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