Sansa is not a Stark

[Dicer]

Did you even read Sansa's chapters or are you just mouthing off? What does "understanding how her actions played a part in her family's downfall" = introspective? That is total bullshit, especially considered that she had no part in it, since the only thing she really manage to do was make it a little bit easier for Cersei to capture some more Stark troops. How about you stop shifting the blame for what Littlefinger did (betrayed Ned to Cersei by giving her the gold Cloaks) and from Cersei (who captured Ned) and LF again (who convinced Joff to execute Ned) to Sansa. Sansa captured nobody, she executed nobody, but I guess that is beside the point in "I read a different version" world where you live?

ugh! The same old tired bull shit. Sansa did play a part in her family's down fall and she knows it. Her babbling to Cersei helped Cersei put her plans in motion. The timing helped. Sansa and Arya were stuck in KL because of her actions and Ned lost his head because his daughters were prisoners. And Sansa talks about how she was shut up in her room with guards after she spoke to Cersei which should have made her introspect about the role she played? She was also there when Jeyne Poole was handed over to LF.

When a person introspects they usually examine their thoughts, actions, deeds. A good leader usually introspects and learns from their mistakes. Sansa fails to do this. Can you give me an example of her introspection since you seem to be the expert on Sansa's chapters.

Arya has compassion for Mycah because he was her friend. She doesn't give two shits about his social status. Sansa puts her neck out for Dontos, she sends for medical aid for Lancel, who previously participated in her debasement. She is the only one who is nice and friendly to Lollys, who is a person almost everyone feels free to mock and make fun of (see Tyrion for instance, who feels sorry for *Bronn* when he marries Lollys, despite Lollys being the one who has to live through having some random man thrust at her without having anything to say about the situation, but apparently marital rape is a joking matter in the World of Tyrion).

Yes, and my question was...Where was this compassion before she was held prisoner? Where was her compassion for the dead butcher boy? Not giving two shits about social status is compassion. Sansa's compassion stems from her own sorry status as a prisoner. Understanding the feeling of helplessness, helps her understand Dontos.

I also don't think Ned is a very compassionate person. Yes, he hates killing children, but he did take a child hostage. Not very compassionate. Arya is compassionate, so is Jon, so is Bran, so is Sam. It's not something that uniquely qualifies Sansa. Still not seeing the similarities between Ned and Sansa.

As for not "caring about the common folk" she's clearly friends with Mya Stone in the Vale, but perhaps that doesn't count as common enough?

And before? The bastard Alayne Stone mingles with Mya Stone. Did high born Sansa Stark mingle with anyone? Did someone hold Ned prisoner and abuse him before he started mingling with the common man (If he ever did).

No, they are descriptions made based on her chapters. She is thoughtful and introvert a lot of the time. Many things that are interesting in her chapters take place in her internal thoughts and not in dialogue or actions, which is also btw why a lot of people complain that her chapters are slow and that "nothing much happens". Apart from, you know, character development.

She is not an introvert by choice. Again, I don't see how she is thoughtful since her thoughts don't lead to anything conclusive or give her ideas about anything. She is just a passive observer who narrates what she sees. Certainly, I don't see how her thoughts are as complex as Ned's who introspects, rethinks and still agonizes about his decisions regarding Jon 14 years.

Ah, so you admit to moving the goal posts, but it's different because Reasons. Either he lied, or he didn't. You can't have it two ways.

Oh yes, how selfish. She wanted to be happy. Bad bad Sansa. No woman ever should try and pursue her own happiness. How could she? Also, she didn't betray her family since she did not knowlingly go to the "enemy" side. In Sansa's mind, the Lannister/Baratheons are her future family. They are not the enemy. "Betraying" implies you go to the enemy side. But to her, they aren't.

Yes, this naive 12 year old idiot who made a blunder of things, should do whatever the hell she wants and disobey her elders who know better because it's all about women's rights now! How sexist of me to expect a child to obey her father. Especially when the child is written as a dumb blonde who can't see the difference between fairy tales and real life. And yes, as soon as people are betrothed they immediately side with their new family over their old one in Westeros. Cat never bothered with the Tullys I guess and Margaery was full on Lannister. Siding against Arya and Ned and with Joffrey was totally A-okay!

Besides, the betrothal wasn't called off, so your claim that she did it to become queen is faulty. She did it in order to not be shipped off to the north. She was, at this point, still meant for Joffrey, at least as far as she knew. Hence that point is bogus. You are putting information in Sansa's head she could not have had.

Ned very clearly told her that Joffrey was an arsehole and not the guy for Sansa and that he would find her a much nice guy. But of course Sansa knew better and we should all respect her wishes and her right to marry Joffrey right?! She did it because Ned broke off her marriage. She wanted to stay back and marry her sweet prince Joff who she saw stick a sword into the fact of an innocent butcher boy. So much for compassion.

Naivite and agency are not the same. Perhaps you should use a dictionary to see what they mean. Naivite is not in itself something that bars one from having agency. It probably means you are going to make mistakes (imagine that!) but you seem to conflate the two raelly quite horribly. Besides, I thought she "betrayed" Ned. Has she gone from "betraying" to "disobeying" now? What happened in two paragraphs?

Yes, they are not the same. where did I say it was. But your argument seems to be that Sansa did not know any better, but she should still be allowed to do whatever she wants. Don't you see how ridiculous that is? Sansa's mistakes led to Arya never getting to winterfell and Ned losing his head. Pretty big consequences. Her mistakes are excused by her ignorance but you seem to be arguing that she should be allowed to make those mistakes because AGENCY!! The favorite words of the Sansa fans!

Sansa has gone to the Septa Mordane school of thought. The Septa even tells her straight out that she is not supposed to think for herself. Arya is a bad student, i.e. she thinks for herself and doesn't conform well, and is penalised for it. Sansa does what she is told, is rewarded and ends up a talking bird. She is acting logically yet you insist she is an "airheaded nitwit". However, she quickly learns how to be something else than a talking bird once she goes to another sort of school than Septa Mordane's, but I guess you missed all the Sansa chapters post AGOT, yes? Otherwise, you might have noticed her change from talking bird to a character who has learnt to think for herself independent of others. A difficult concept to grasp, character development.

They had the same teacher and a younger Arya was able to make out that the Lannisters were not to be trusted. I mean, how stupid should one be to think that real life is like fairytales. Did the Septa teach Sansa that real life is like fairy tales? I think not. She taught her how to be a lady, how to sew, how to comport herself, how to manage a household. Arya was a bad student in these things. But after Jon seens Joff's behaviour in the field and Arya sees Joff's behaviour with Mycah, they learn! Sansa does not. And that's not because of anyone else, but Sansa's selfishly willing to overlook it because she was infatuated with Joffrey's beauty.

And how has Sansa learned to think independently in this character development that I am missing? Does she come up with any of her own ideas? Does she plan her own escape? Does she understand what LF is upto? Did she figure out Dontos? Did she learn about not flapping her tongue to the wrong person after doing so with Cersei, Margaery and Dontos? Did she realize her role in what happened to her family?

[ambi76]

Holy wall of text. Okay, you really despise Sansa because you absolutely can not get over her initial transgressions. I got that. And on topic this means she's not a Stark? Because "Stark = somebody I like."? That I don't get. Okay, I get that too. It's just a bit stupid simple.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Moreover, I highly doubt Ned had started 'Family History' lessons by stating everything that had happened the generation before. I think it's rather obvious the Stark children are sheltered to a high degree: That explains Arya's wild behavior, Sansa's dreams of Princes and Queens, Bran's Knightly Goals, Jon's romantic views on the Night's Watch and Robb's political naiveté.

Sansa is not the only Stark living in a made up world. Ned warns Cersei and trusts LF, as he's as blind to the nature of KL as his daughter is. He realizes too late, in the dungeons, the way Sansa realizes too late, after Joff beheads Ned. Even then, you could argue that her hopes were more realistic than Ned's: Ned had no hope of getting Cersei to leave KL with her kids,

Exactly. Does anyone even remember Jon's ideas about NW? What Sansa called "knights in black"? His perception wasn't an inch better. That is why Jon's whining in AGOT sounds a lot like Sansa's regarding Arya and her interests.

This notion that every one of the Starks had their head in the sand as Sansa did must stop. Jon's deas about the NW were similar to most people's perception of it. When he mentions it to his uncle, Benjen does not say you have no idea how horrible it is. He cautions Jon to think of what he would have to give up. If his own uncle doesn't tell him about the harsh realities of the Wall, how would Jon know what to expect before he got there? That's hardly having ideas about the NW. There are many noble sons there including the Benjen Stark so Jon's ideas of being able to craft a life for himself there are not fantasy. What's more, as another poster already meantioned, when he arrives and sees it's not what he expected, he adapted.

Arya may or may not have been forced to marry eventually but who's to say that she wouldn't have a found a match that would agree with her personailty? Having her enjoy different activities than that of a genteel lady wasn't so unusual since we see Lyanna did the same. And she wasn't oblivious to what was expected of her she just perferred to do other things. She continued her lessons but it does seem to be her natural instincts and talents (that went against the norm of the lessons she was receiving) that have saved her. When she is in company that requires her to be more courteous, she adapted.

And are we really trying to make a case that Bran was delusional in thinking he'd become a knight? What else would he have done had he not fallen from the tower? It was most definitely a realistic option considering he was a second son.

Sansa does not get criticized for liking songs and fairytales. She gets criticized for believing them to be true even when she is shown differently. She doesn't adapt until her father's head rolls off. That's the problem. She willfully ignores what she sees and puts fault and blame on others to keep those who have a role in her "song" intact.

And while Robb was in over his head with the Westerlings and I disagree with the choices he made, he didn't make them because he was living in a fantasy world. He made his decisions with the values and experiences he's been exposed to. I don't say that to excuse his decision but it is different from Sansa's behavior. He recognizes he has offended the Freys but hopes to smooth it over. He weighs his two options and makes a decision. Sansa doesn't recognize anything happening around her until her father is killed. That's the big difference between Sansa and her siblings. She chooses to ignore what is happening around her until it is too late. She refuses to adapt her way of thinking until she finally makes a choice to go to Cersei for help in staying in KL and is made a hostage.

But she is adapting now which is the point of her arc. Fans who want to deny her start lessen the progress she's made. She is observing what is happening now and processing it so she can act accordingly. She is finally adapting! She did not do that before but she is choosing to do it now. That's her growth in her arc. Why are we undermining it by saying she was part of some conspiracy of the North to make all the Stark kids more naive than any other noble kid in Westeros? The Starks were no more naive than any other of the kids we see with the exception of Margaery.

[David Selig]

If his own uncle doesn't tell him about the harsh realities of the Wall, how would Jon know what to expect before he got there?

It's an organization mostly staffed by criminals who are forced to go there and once you join, you are in for life. What more do you need to be told to realize it sucks?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

It's an organization mostly staffed by criminals who are forced to go there and once you join, you are in for life. What more do you need to be told to realize it sucks?

And yet there are many noble sons there. I agree it has definitely lost the grandeur it once held but it is still considered honorable. What's more, it's meant to mirror the Kingsguard where it seems you are forced to say yes if asked to join and once you join, it is for life.

[Mladen]

The difference is that Jon learned, very early on, that his perceptions of things were wrong. Tyrion, Donal, and Sam set him straight and he learns . That's the difference.

So, basically, the only difference is that Jon had someone to teach him. One could wish that Sansa had someone like that. Someone like, IDK, her father!!!

And there is no way that one can say that Sansa didn't learn. She learned the same way as Jon. When her expectations and dreams failed.

Not at all true. There are no similarities between Ned and Sansa. Ned knew the cold hard truth. He knew what sort of person Robert was. That was why he disagreed and fought with Robert and went back to Winterfell. Ned disliked and distrusted the Lannistes and LF. He was not taken in by appearances.

We are speaking here about deeper psychological level. The fact that Sansa liked and Ned disliked Cersei have no bearing here because it is utterly irrelevant. We are not stipulating it to one-dimension. Basically, their responses to different people can be quite compared. How Ned behaved to Robert is the same way Sansa behaved to Lannisters. Ned was wounded after Lady's death but he kinda forgave that to Robert and moved on. His level of delusion is even worse because not only that he is grown up, but kinda justifies him at every given opportunity to the point where he can't do it anymore. The way Ned believes in right and wrong and what people are is basically the same view Sansa shares. She also believe that there are good and bad people, only they have differences in that perspective regarding who. Basically, the same way of treating and dividing people, different groups in that.

Ned was loyal to his family, above all. Sansa betrayed her family, sided with the Lannisters and proclaimed Arya traitor.

I knew that Joffrez bought Sansa's lies. After all, he is a sociopath and an idiot. But I could have never guessed that readers bought that too. I mean, she is such a bad liar for me that it is practically impossible to come to that conclusion.

Why is it important to be "a Stark"?

snip

Mark the date... I agree :). But, in this case, people are using it, to actually say that Sansa's femininity is basically not worthy of Stark superblood.

[Lyanna Stark]

ugh! The same old tired bull shit. Sansa did play a part in her family's down fall and she knows it. Her babbling to Cersei helped Cersei put her plans in motion. The timing helped. Sansa and Arya were stuck in KL because of her actions and Ned lost his head because his daughters were prisoners. And Sansa talks about how she was shut up in her room with guards after she spoke to Cersei which should have made her introspect about the role she played? She was also there when Jeyne Poole was handed over to LF.

Right, lets back up to what you state here. Sansa helped Cersei put her plans in motion. The answer to this is a small bit, but the majority? Was Littlefinger. Without Littlefinger, Cersei would have no plan. 99% of the blame here is Littlefinger. HE was behind it. Littlefinger betrayed Ned. He gave Cersei the Gold Cloaks. This is not difficult to grasp. Hell, for emphasis, Petyr Baelish puts a knife to Ned's throat. Can it be any more in your face obvious who is behind the treachery? It is Littlefinger. Cersei is more understandable, as Ned threatened her and her children, but Petyr Baelish is doing this completely for selfish gains. And if you think for a second that he would let Sansa slip through his fingers, then I'd say you are extremely wrong. LF wanted Sansa from early on, and he maneuvers to get Ned offed and Sansa to himself, eventually out of Lannister and Tyrell clutches.

So let's rehash this: what should Sansa have been introspective about regarding her role? She should magically have figured out that she was behind it all, when this is actually not the truth? Only because you think this would be Right and Proper in your paralell universe?

When a person introspects they usually examine their thoughts, actions, deeds. A good leader usually introspects and learns from their mistakes. Sansa fails to do this. Can you give me an example of her introspection since you seem to be the expert on Sansa's chapters.

Not really no. A quick googling will give to hand: "Introspection is the examination of one's own conscious thoughts and feelings". And only in your paralell universe does Sansa not learn from her mistakes. She realises in ACOK that Joffrey is a monster, that all Lannisters lie, that Sandor may have a point when he's talking about knights being a dude with a sword out to kill people. Hence: your conclusion that she does not learn is faulty. There are lots of characters who learn far less *cough* Tyrion *cough* close to hand, while Sansa is an example of exactly what you are talking about: she is introspective, she learns, she grows.

Yes, and my question was...Where was this compassion before she was held prisoner? Where was her compassion for the dead butcher boy? Not giving two shits about social status is compassion. Sansa's compassion stems from her own sorry status as a prisoner. Understanding the feeling of helplessness, helps her understand Dontos.

No, not giving to shits about social status does not equal compassion. It is simply not the same thing. In that case the most compassionate people would be communists, and I think we can all agree being a commie is not automatically a means to ultimate altruism. While her feelings of helplessness certainly enables her to be more compassionate, she demonstrates on several occasions that it assists her only, but it is not the end all and be all. In fact, when she shows compassion to Lancel she even thinks she is an idiot for doing so, yet she does it all the same.

I also don't think Ned is a very compassionate person. Yes, he hates killing children, but he did take a child hostage. Not very compassionate. Arya is compassionate, so is Jon, so is Bran, so is Sam. It's not something that uniquely qualifies Sansa. Still not seeing the similarities between Ned and Sansa.

Ned is surely compassionate. He does not approve of senseless violence, he thinks kindly on Cersei as a mother and that she cares for her children, although she has never done him a kindness. Everyone told him to remove her, yet he does not. Oh and there is that small little issue of him caring for Jon, of course, while betraying his best friend. And how he had a falling out with Robert after the murder of Rhaegar's children. Which, I might point out, are his enemy's children. Rhaegar and Ned were on two different sides of the war. He also disapproves strongly of Robert having Dany murdered. As for Theon, while on the face of it, Theon was a hostage, he grew up as much a part of the Stark family as Jon, which is more than Theon (or Balon) ever could have wished for.

And before? The bastard Alayne Stone mingles with Mya Stone. Did high born Sansa Stark mingle with anyone? Did someone hold Ned prisoner and abuse him before he started mingling with the common man (If he ever did).

This is so bizarre. Obviously Ned mingled with the common folk, which means Sansa did too on occasion. After all it is stated plainly in the text that Ned invited people from within his household to sit at the main table and discuss what was going on with him. Comparing Sansa and Arya to the Lannisters makes it obvious that while they are certainly aware of their class, they are not so high and mighty as Cersei et al.

She is not an introvert by choice. Again, I don't see how she is thoughtful since her thoughts don't lead to anything conclusive or give her ideas about anything. She is just a passive observer who narrates what she sees. Certainly, I don't see how her thoughts are as complex as Ned's who introspects, rethinks and still agonizes about his decisions regarding Jon 14 years.

And this is where, again, you clearly haven't read her chapters, since if you had, you'd see that of all the characters in ASOIAF, Sansa's character growth may be the most dramatic. From a girl spoon fed an ideal image of chivalry and knighthood, she is turning into an apprentice of Petyr Baelish, learning to master the intricacies of politics and intrigue from the master himself. And she has, by the end of AFFC already successfully lied him in the face, too. She has changed her entire outlook on life. In AGOT, she went to Cersei with a burning desire to marry a golden prince and live a lovely life at court with all the trimmings. In AFFC, she thinks she never wants to marry again and she laments that she will always just be a piece of meat on the marriage market and that she will never be loved for herself. She NAILS the whole problem with a patriarchal society, one that she previously was super happy to be a part of, but now rejects completely and utterly. How is this not growth? How is this not change?

Yes, this naive 12 year old idiot who made a blunder of things, should do whatever the hell she wants and disobey her elders who know better because it's all about women's rights now! How sexist of me to expect a child to obey her father. Especially when the child is written as a dumb blonde who can't see the difference between fairy tales and real life. And yes, as soon as people are betrothed they immediately side with their new family over their old one in Westeros. Cat never bothered with the Tullys I guess and Margaery was full on Lannister. Siding against Arya and Ned and with Joffrey was totally A-okay!

How did Cat "bother with the Tullys" after she was married? How did Lysa "bother with theTullys" for that matter? Did she meddle in their affairs? The fact of the matter is, as we also saw with Randyll Tarly's wife: if a woman ends up in a marriage where her new family is at war with her old one, she remains with her new family. Ask Mrs Tarly formerly Florent what sort of Florent business she does these days. That's right: nothing. She is a Tarly, post marriage, and her allegiance is moved to the Tarly family.

Margaery's case is different, since Tommen is a minor and her family is moving to usurp Cersei and the Lannisters. They would not formally rule through Margarey, but the family could potentially control Tommen.

A woman's agency however is about women's rights. We see the same issues with Daenerys, with Sansa, Asha, Cersei and Arianne. All women who are somehow made to marry someone they do not wish, or who fear being made to marry someone they do not wish. Sansa tried to grasp her own happiness. She made a mistake, sure, but at least she made an attempt.

Ned very clearly told her that Joffrey was an arsehole and not the guy for Sansa and that he would find her a much nice guy. But of course Sansa knew better and we should all respect her wishes and her right to marry Joffrey right?! She did it because Ned broke off her marriage. She wanted to stay back and marry her sweet prince Joff who she saw stick a sword into the fact of an innocent butcher boy. So much for compassion.

Ned didn't break the betrothal though. He told Sansa he'd set her up with someone else, someone brave, gentle and strong, but he never officially broke the betrothal with the Lannister/Baratheons. As for whether or not Sansa wanted Joffrey in particular, I think you are missing the point again: Sansa in AGOT wanted to marry the idea of Joffrey the Golden Prince, and she projected that image onto joffrey.

Yes, they are not the same. where did I say it was. But your argument seems to be that Sansa did not know any better, but she should still be allowed to do whatever she wants. Don't you see how ridiculous that is? Sansa's mistakes led to Arya never getting to winterfell and Ned losing his head. Pretty big consequences. Her mistakes are excused by her ignorance but you seem to be arguing that she should be allowed to make those mistakes because AGENCY!! The favorite words of the Sansa fans!

Anda gain, let me spell it out: LITTLEFINGER betrayed Ned. LITTLEFINGER made Joffrey execue Ned. Sansa didn't do this. Petyr Baelish did this. Your guilt shifting is simply ridiculous. The fact that you have decided that Sansa is guilty against textual evidence doesn't make it so.

And how has Sansa learned to think independently in this character development that I am missing?

In the chapters you haven't read, clearly.

[Mladen]

This notion that every one of the Starks had their head in the sand as Sansa did must stop. Jon's deas about the NW were similar to most people's perception of it.

Oh, you want to argue that Jon's perception was the same as the perception of society who sends the rapists, murderers and other scumbag to that Wall?

There are many noble sons there including the Benjen Stark

We don't know why some of them joined NW. Tarly was forced, Benjen perhaps grew up just as Jon, listening to how good at Wall is. without much true knowledge of it. It is not career of choice for many people. Actually the most of them.

Arya may or may not have been forced to marry eventually but who's to say that she wouldn't have a found a match that would agree with her personailty?

Because she wouldn't be the one searching. That would be Ned.

And are we really trying to make a case that Bran was delusional in thinking he'd become a knight?

Then tell me why are Sansa's dreams of becoming Queen considered shallow. She is arguably among the five most desirable bachelorettes in the Realm. So, he is it OK for Bran to dream about being a knight and not OK for Sansa to dream about being a Queen?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

But, in this case, people are using it, to actually say that Sansa's femininity is basically not worthy of Stark superblood.

I'm so glad you said this because it's what I suspected was always at the root of the problem for Sansa fans. They believe that readers do not think Sansa is a Stark because of her femininty. However, from what I've seen on many boards, especially this one, the readers that believe Sansa is not considered to be not worthy of Stark blood do not do this because of her femininty. Their posts almost always refer to her actions in book 1 against her family and consider the death of direwolf as judgement for that. I am not advocating this view but it is this opinion that leads to the idea that she is unworthy in book 1, not her femininty. That said, many do say her povs might be a bit slower paced than other povs and this could indeed be attributed to her focus on courtly love and songs but that is not connected to her worth to be a Stark.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Oh, you want to argue that Jon's perception was the same as the perception of society who sends the rapists, murderers and other scumbag to that Wall?

You mean the same Wall that his uncle and countless other Starks have joined?

Then tell me why are Sansa's dreams of becoming Queen considered shallow. She is arguably among the five most desirable bachelorettes in the Realm. So, he is it OK for Bran to dream about being a knight and not OK for Sansa to dream about being a Queen?

Sansa is not shallow because she dreams of becoming queen. She is out of touch with reality because of how she views the royal family (beautiful so they must be good and everyone else must be bad) even after engaging with them and how she constantly tried to morph the gritty real world events to fit into the songs and fairytales in her head.

[Mladen]

I'm so glad you said this because it's what I suspected was always at the root of the problem for Sansa fans. They believe that readers do not think Sansa is a Stark because of her femininty. However, from what I've seen on many boards, especially this one, the readers that believe Sansa is not considered to be not worthy of Stark blood do not do this because of her femininty. Their posts almost always refer to her actions in book 1 against her family and consider the death of direwolf as judgement for that. I am not advocating this view but it is this opinion that leads to the idea that she is unworthy in book 1, not her femininty. That said, many do say her povs might be a bit slower paced than other povs and this could indeed be attributed to her focus on courtly love and songs but that is not connected to her worth to be a Stark.

So, here is what I don't understand. Let we say that it is just about the feeling that Sansa doesn't quite like her family. So, we have that one book. And then we have her being depressed and suicidal when her father was executed. We see throughout the three books that she finds strength to survive each day in memories of her parents and her older brother. We see her plans naming her children after the male in her family. We see her building Winterfell. The only thing that didn't change in the books is Sansa's femininity. The thing that did is that she discovered how wrong she was about certain people. And how many times we talked about "Stark way is not a song hence Sansa is not a Stark"? I am sorry, but many times, argumentation is exactly like that. Her interests, her desire to see the world is considered basically treacherous to Stark superblood.

You mean the same Wall that his uncle and countless other Starks have joined?

Which makes it even worse that people in Winterfell didn't have idea about the real situation at the Wall.

Sansa is not shallow because she dreams of becoming queen. She is out of touch with reality because of how she views the royal family (beautiful so they must be good and everyone else must be bad) even after engaging with them and how she constantly tried to morph the gritty real world events to fit into the songs and fairytales in her head.

Sansa doesn't think that only beautiful people are good. She is behaving as she was taught. That the nobility is noble. This is what she has been taught her entire life. That the Prince and the Queen are the good people who should be respected. None of the children seems to be aware of Ned's dislike towards the Lannisters. And, tell me, when your father continues to support the engagement to the certain prince, what conclusion 11-year-old girl can draw?

[foreign675]

Which makes it even worse that people in Winterfell didn't have idea about the real situation at the Wall.

:)

My few cents: it's not that they had no idea [except for Jon and other kids], but rather that most people live in denial :)

[Ser Pounce FTW]

So, here is what I don't understand. Let we say that it is just about the feeling that Sansa doesn't quite like her family. So, we have that one book. And then we have her being depressed and suicidal when her father was executed. We see throughout the three books that she finds strength to survive each day in memories of her parents and her older brother. We see her plans naming her children after the male in her family. We see her building Winterfell. The only thing that didn't change in the books is Sansa's femininity. The thing that did is that she discovered how wrong she was about certain people. And how many times we talked about "Stark way is not a song hence Sansa is not a Stark"? I am sorry, but many times, argumentation is exactly like that. Her interests, her desire to see the world is considered basically treacherous to Stark superblood.

I have been on the boards for a few years now and while there are tons of perspectives posted, the majority of posts that say Sansa is not a Stark refer to her actions against her family.

Which makes it even worse that people in Winterfell didn't have idea about the real situation at the Wall.

I would go even further and say the majority of Westeros doesn't have any idea about the real situatin at the Wall. I suppose they consider it unnecessary since there hasn't been any threats from north of the Wall other than the Wildings for so long. But Jon can't be considered special in not knowing what was really happening. And again, he doesn't complain after he sees what it is but moves on.

Sansa doesn't think that only beautiful people are good. She is behaving as she was taught. That the nobility is noble. This is what she has been taught her entire life. That the Prince and the Queen are the good people who should be respected. None of the children seems to be aware of Ned's dislike towards the Lannisters.

Sansa doesn't think they're right because they're nobles. Her thoughts are all based on her fantasies and what she wants to see. She equates goodness with beauty and behavior rather than with their title:

She was almost in tears. All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs. Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella?

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate.

Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer.

Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes.

Her thoughts don't exonerate the nobility only the beautiful people. These thoughts are what cause many readers to say she is delusional.

[Mladen]

I have been on the boards for a few years now and while there are tons of perspectives posted, the majority of posts that say Sansa is not a Stark refer to her actions against her family.

Well, I have also been around here for a while and Sansa debates are my main interest, so I also know what I talk about.

I would go even further and say the majority of Westeros doesn't have any idea about the real situatin at the Wall. I suppose they consider it unnecessary since there hasn't been any threats from north of the Wall other than the Wildings for so long. But Jon can't be considered special in not knowing what was really happening. And again, he doesn't complain after he sees what it is but moves on.

We are not even talking about the real situation, wildlings etc. We are talking about Westerosi knowing or being aware that Wall is place for most of the scumbag. And there is no point denying that. They basically say to everyone - "Get punished for your crime or go to Wall." So it would be impossible to argue that Westerosi are not aware that Wall is full of ex-criminals.

Sansa doesn't think they're right because they're nobles. Her thoughts are all based on her fantasies and what she wants to see. She equates goodness with beauty and behavior rather than with their title:

She was almost in tears. All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs. Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella?

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate.

Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer.

Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes.

Her thoughts don't exonerate the nobility only the beautiful people. These thoughts are what cause many readers to say she is delusional.

You made rather the poor point here...

Quote 1 - being kind and delicate is behavioral pattern not the sign of beauty. Myrcella is indeed a beautiful, but the quote is about Sansa disliking what Arya usually do.

Quote 2 - Well, she is in love. You made the point here, but we all know that love can blind someone.

Quote 3 - You are well aware that Joffrey didn't kill Jory, or the fact that Jaime is regarded as the most beautiful man alive?

Quote 4 - Well, compared to Gregor, Loras indeed is a hero.

Again, you contradicted yourself when you quoted the lines where Sansa clearly shows contempt to what Jaime did. Jaime, who is very, very, very beautiful.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Well, I have also been around here for a while and Sansa debates are my main interest, so I also know what I talk about.

Please provide at least 3 quotes from anyone who says Sansa is not a Stark because of her femininity. I'd be surprised if you found even 2 that say because she likes songs and pretty dresses she is not a Stark. And no, saying she should be aware of the harsh reality doesn't support that you can't still like songs.

We are not even talking about the real situation, wildlings etc. We are talking about Westerosi knowing or being aware that Wall is place for most of the scumbag. And there is no point denying that. They basically say to everyone - "Get punished for your crime or go to Wall." So it would be impossible to argue that Westerosi are not aware that Wall is full of ex-criminals.

The fact that the Wall has ex-criminals is well known. That does not negate the notion that is considered an honorable choice. However, if you feel that saying it is not makes Sansa stand out a lot less for a dreamer, then by all means, continue with that idea.

You made rather the poor point here...

Quote 1 - being kind and delicate is behavioral pattern not the sign of beauty. Myrcella is indeed a beautiful, but the quote is about Sansa disliking what Arya usually do.

Quote 2 - Well, she is in love. You made the point here, but we all know that love can blind someone.

Quote 3 - You are well aware that Joffrey didn't kill Jory, or the fact that Jaime is regarded as the most beautiful man alive?

Quote 4 - Well, compared to Gregor, Loras indeed is a hero.

Again, you contradicted yourself when you quoted the lines where Sansa clearly shows contempt to what Jaime did. Jaime, who is very, very, very beautiful.

These quotes show Sansa using appearance as indicator of one person's morality or value. And she does this particularly with Cersei and Joffrey. I could have even more quotes if I weren't at work. But again, if you'd like to say that there is no proof that Sansa judged people, especially the royal family, by using their appearance as indicators of whether they were good, then by all means, do so.

[Mladen]

Please provide at least 3 quotes from anyone who says Sansa is not a Stark because of her femininity. I'd be surprised if you found even 2 that say because she likes songs and pretty dresses she is not a Stark. And no, saying she should be aware of the harsh reality doesn't support that you can't still like songs.

Really? You want to claim that you have never actually seen argument "She is not a Stark because she likes songs and dresses and sewing etc"? OK, then... My experience is different.

The fact that the Wall has ex-criminals is well known. That does not negate the notion that is considered an honorable choice. However, if you feel that saying it is not makes Sansa stand out a lot less for a dreamer, then by all means, continue with that idea.

I am saying that we can't single out Sansa for being a dreamer, or believing in better in people than they are. Jon experienced that with NW, Arya experienced that with smallfolk, Robb with Freys. These kids were not prepared for what they faced.

These quotes show Sansa using appearance as indicator of one person's morality or value. And she does this particularly with Cersei and Joffrey. I could have even more quotes if I weren't at work. But again, if you'd like to say that there is no proof that Sansa judged people, especially the royal family, by using their appearance as indicators of whether they were good, then by all means, do so.

No, they don't. You can't logically make that argument with the quote where Sansa calls one of the most beautiful man alive wicked.

And thank you for giving me free pass to argue what I believe is correct.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Hey sorry I just needed a title that would catch everyone's attention. Anyways has anyone seen this?

http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/72159040721/ive-been-meaning-to-ask-you-will-you-do-a-write

^This tumblr post claims because Sansa lost her wolf, she will be unable to claim her identity, and it goes into depth. If anything it seems very plausible to me, I could totally see Petyr trying to show the world that Sansa is still alive and no one believing him or her. This is interesting...

Anonymous → I've been meaning to ask you, will you do a write up on what you think the death of Lady means for Sansa? I do think it foreshadowed the death of Sansa Stark- the identity, not the person. As we see now, she's Alayne Stone. But beyond that, what are the ramifications of being the only Stark child without a wolf? And, Arya doesn't have her wolf either, but Nymeria is alive, leading a pack in the Riverlands, and Arya wargs with her every night from Braavos. Their connection is only strengthening.

Well, the whole connection between Stark and direwolf is interesting and very symbolic. It’s also very powerful and important, which means that Sansa and Arya have had to struggle through being separated from theirs.

It’s pretty complex in my opinion.

Unpopular opinion:

Nymeria and Arya’s connection is only strengthening, but Arya doesn’t know that. She doesn’t know that the “night wolf” is Nymeria and her warging into her as opposed to another wolf persona she draws strength from. Also, Nymeria is never mentioned in Arya’s chapters in ADWD. And that is symbolic in that Arya at her most detached, though not actually detached nor going to stay that way, from her identity as Arya Stark is not thinking of Nymeria.

I would argue that you’re confusing Arya’s abilities as a skinchanger and a warg, that are growing stronger and stronger and seem to be stronger than all others besides Bran, are improving and strengthening with her emotional bond with Nymeria that is far more strained than pre-separation. In ADWD, she isn’t brought up at all. In AFFC, she is used for Arya’s cover story as Cat (the ship’s name is Nymeria) and is mentioned in Arya’s speech when she refuses to give up Needle but that’s it. Their bond is untouchable and unbreakable, but Arya herself is completely clueless about that, so it’s hard to really say their bond is just getting stronger.

And GRRM goes out of his way to bring up Arya/Nymeria when Sansa and Lady’s death are brought up in an interview:

Shaw:

You mentioned how closely tied the Stark children are with the direwolves, but how about Sansa now that Lady’s dead?

Martin:

She lost hers, so it kind of leaves her a little adrift. Of course Arya has lost her’s too, she’s separated from Nymeria. [

source

]

Because in the short run Arya and Sansa were the same in this. Arya was adrift from the loss of Nymeria as Sansa was from Lady’s death. But it’s only in the short run really because it starts to differ when Arya unconsciously starts warging and skinchanging and Sansa doesn’t. In the long run, if when Arya meets up with Nymeria again, Arya will be whole again. But Sansa never will be.

Arya and Sansa have their fates mirrored by their direwolves.

The parallels of their direwolves to their own situations are profound.

(That’s one of the reasons why I give so much credence to the fact that Nymeria is leading hundreds of wolves in the Riverlands for Arya’s future storyline.)

But the direwolves are the Starks in some ways.

“He is part of you, Robb. To fear him is to fear you.”

Catelyn to Robb about Grey Wind, ASoS

Ghost did not count. Ghost was closer than a friend. Ghost was part of him.

Jon, ADWD

“Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran.”

Jojen to Bran, ACoK

This is what I mean when I say Arya can become whole again, but Sansa never will. Three different POVs, three different direwolf/Stark bonds, and the message is always the same: the direwolf is a part of the Stark. “Part of you”- so what do you do without a part of yourself? Arya and Sansa, through their incredible sense of self and strength of mind, have been attempting to survive the loss of that. That’s why they’re “adrift”.

I think people make light, like really make light, of Lady’s death. This matters. A lot. The entire ASoIaF series was borne of GRRM’s idea of the Stark children and their direwolves.

In 1991, George R.R. Martin was working on a science fiction novel when suddenly an unrelated scene flashed in his head: a group of children finding a litter of direwolf pups. “It just came to me so vividly,” he told me. The children, needless to say, would become the Starks, protagonists of

Game of Thrones,

the first book in his best-selling series

A Song of Ice and Fire

[

source

]

And Ned thinks to himself about how the old gods must have sent the direwolves to his children and muses on the ramifications of killing Lady:

Bran’s wolf had saved the boy’s life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa’s, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

Eddard, AGoT

Losing Lady was a permanent thing that will forever affect Sansa. It’s meaning did not end at what the Lannisters did to Sansa because she lost “a part of her” forever.

This is why I think people make light of Lady’s death. In the short term (mid-AGoT-ASoS,) it’s been the same as Arya losing Nymeria. In the less short term (ASoS-ADWD,) it has still had only a slight difference in that Arya is disconnected from Nymeria but is not unconsciously warging into her consistently. But in the very long term (TWoW-ADoS and probably after,) that’s when the real difference will be illustrated.

Arya and Nymeria are reuniting, but Sansa is never getting Lady back.

So the consequences for Lady’s death are different in the short and long run. In the short run, when Sansa is separated from her Stark identity regardless and pretending to be Alayne Stone, it really isn’t that big of a deal. But after this, when Sansa can be Sansa again, what will it mean?

I believe it is symbolic of the death of her Stark identity. Arya and Sansa’s narratives both deal heavily with identity loss. Actually, Arya’s connection with Nymeria can be seen as a huge reason (besides just her strong sense of self) why she hasn’t succumbed to the Facleess Men’s identity loss training.

But as we examine storylines, Sansa’s is the most detached from the North and being a Stark- in some very similar ways to Arya (identity loss) but in some potentially permanent other ways as well.

For starters, while people deal with identity loss, Sansa is the only Stark child to lose her name officially.

They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly.

Sansa, ASoS

• Sansa’s wolf Lady was killed despite being innocent and blameless for another’s (Joffrey, Nymeria, whoever you want but certainly not Lady) crime. The Lannisters ensured she was put down. Similarly, Sansa is punished for crimes that are not her own (and don’t really exist) and her Stark identity (represented by Lady) is forcibly put down by the Lannisters. The Lannisters’ actions result in her Stark identity kind of being killed as she denounces her family over and over publicly in KL in order to just stay alive.
• On the other hand, Arya is forced, for fear of Nymeria’s life, to chase (in a physical, almost violent way with throwing rocks at her) Nymeria away. Similarly, Arya is forced to chase her own Stark identity away in fear of her own life. It also becomes almost more distant as her life becomes more violent and chaotic. Also, Nymeria is separated from all she knew (her real siblings and Arya,) forced to make a new pack that doesn’t
• quite fit the same (they’re wolves, not direwolves) and deals and adapts to new environment and abandonment- which is Arya’s storyline.

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”

“Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.”

Jon, ADWD

Sansa is officially Sansa Lannister. She is tied to the Lannisters and is no longer a Stark technically (she’s still a Stark obviously, but not by law.

And that’s not looking like it’s something that will change- definitely not any time soon as Sansa can’t annul her marriage as she’s wanted for kingslaying.

But then there’s the fact that Sansa deals with noNorthern or Stark aspects in her narrative. It all centers around the game of thrones (southern politics,) being forced to denounce her family publicly, and spends all her time post-beginning of AGoT out of the North.

By comparison, we have:

1. Rickon who is in Skagos (which is in the North,) spent much of his storyline in Winterfell, has his direwolf by his side, is assumably warging into him.
2. Bran who rules Winterfell for some time, interacts with many Northern lords, travels afterwards North with Stark bannermen, goes beyond the Wall (so more Northern traveling,) wargs into Summer regularly and stays with his direwolf, skinchanges, is a greenseer, met the Children of the Forest.
3. Robb who ruled as King in the North. Enough said I would think, but he also was close with Grey Wind, presumably warged into him, and worked closely with Northern lords.
4. Jon who is in the Night’s Watch (which has always been closely tied to the Starks and the North,) wargs into Ghost, is at the Wall and travelled even more North beyond it.
5. And then Arya who has had a lot of connections with the Night’s Watch (Yoren, Daeron, Samwell,) plotted to free hundreds of Northmen in Harrenhal, listened to many discussions of Northern politics while serving Roose Bolton, served Roose Bolton, wargs into Nymeria nightly, can skinchange, has cast aside the Seven but not the old gods, met a member of the Children of the Forest, has thought of and utilized the Northern and Stark tradition of the man who speaks the sentence should swing the sword, she even killed a NW deserter as is the job of the Warden of the North, and consistently draws her strength from wolves. See this for details.

By comparison, Sansa’s narrative has veered far away from the North and her Stark identity. Even the parts about her going to the godswood a lot aren’t really related to her Stark identity. After all, that’s because (most of those times) she’s plotting with Dontos- and the location was picked by Littlefinger.

“Come to the godswood tonight if you want to go home.”

“The note… it was you?”

“It had to be the godswood. No other place in the Red Keep is safe from the eunuch’s little birds… or little rats, as I call them. There are trees in the godswood instead of walls. Sky above instead of ceiling. Roots and dirt and rock in place of floor. The rats have no place to scurry. Rats need to hide, lest men skewer them with swords.”

Sansa, ASoS

As her fake “father”, the creator of the Alayne Stone persona, and the person who had a huge hand in Ned Stark’s death, Littlefinger is one of the biggest anti-Stark representations in Sansa’s narrative.

So even if you ignore the fact that her frequent trips to the godswood are almost all unrelated to her Stark identity and count it, there’s not much else of the North and Starks in her narrative.

Lady’s death was the first in a sequence of events that led to Sansa having this storyline, a storyline almost completely detached to being a Stark.

So that’s what I think Lady’s death means. What part of Sansa died with Lady if not her Stark

identity? The direwolves are symbolic of the Starks, it’s their sigil and this:

“There are five pups,” he told Father. “Three male, two female.” “What of it, Jon?”

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the

sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.” …

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Bran, AGoT

The direwolves are symbols of the kids’ Stark identities. In fact, this is brought up again in ADWD:

“Roose Bolton has Lord Eddard’s daughter. To thwart him White Harbor must have Ned’s son …

and the direwolf. The wolf will prove the boy is who we say he is

, should the Dreadfort attempt to deny him.”

Davos, ADWD

Wyman Manderly, a prominent Northern lord, point blanks says in the most recent book that the direwolf will confirm Rickon’s identity as a Stark.

So the direwolves are symbolic of the Starks’ identities as Starks.

So what does it mean for Sansa that she lost Lady for good? That she has had a part of herself, her Stark identity, killed?

This could be indicative of many things:

• that Sansa will never be able to reclaim her name (that her chances at getting an annulment will be ruined because she has sex or something)
• that Sansa will never be able to return to Winterfell (not a fan of this one)
• that Sansa herself will die (100% disagree with this idea, I’m fairly confident that she’ll live)
• that Sansa cannot prove her identity to others when she tries to stop being Alayne (with no direwolf to prove her identity and her family in short supply and scattered, this seems very possible)
• or just that Sansa’s ultimate endgame ends up being not in the North, Highgarden, the Vale, King’s Landing, wherever else.

Anyway, that’s my opinion on what Lady’s death means for Sansa.

Lady's death doesn't mean that Sansa is not a Stark. The Lannisters made her marry Tyrion exactly because she is and they wanted her claim to Winterfell. Bolton made up a fake Arya so he could claim Winterfell.

You are forgetting that Sansa is a lady and her courtesies are her armor. Her direwolf was an embodiment of what Sansa is just as all of the other direwolves are (or were) the embodiment of their owners. Lady's death of course had a profound effect on Sansa, but she is still a Stark of Winterfell. Don't you remember her building Winterfell in the snow? She was feeling very connected to her home then. She is growing up and she has been through a lot just as all of the Stark children have. Alayne Stone is not who she chose to be, that is what Petyr told her she must be, his natural born daughter. She has to dye her hair because she is so very well known.

She still has a connection to her direwolf Lady as well. Here is a quote from A Feast for Crows:

Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. Sweetrobin, she said, I'm scared. Hold my hand and help me get across. I know you're not afraid. He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs, I'm not? Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin. The Winged Knight could fly, Robert whispered. Higher than the mountains. She gave his hand a squeeze.

Lady Myranda had joined them by the spire. He could, she echoed, when she saw what was happening. Ser Sweetrobin, Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought SANSA. A ghost wolf, big as mountains. And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug. Be careful ALAYNE told her, he can hurt you flailing. You wouldn't think so, but he can.

So, Lady is dead, but as you can see the analogy of the wind howling so fiercely it is likened to a wolf by Sansa, not Alayne. Sansa goes on thinking "a GHOST WOLF, as big as mountains. After they cross over that strip of stone that was so perilous, she once again refers to herself as Alayne. Sansa still has a connection to Lady even though she is dead. It is no mistake that she thought of herself as Sansa and of the wind as a ghost wolf. She does not say Lady's name, but it isn't necessary for her to do so. Lady was her wolf and Lady is dead, therefore Lady's ghost was with her, she had already bonded with Lady so that a part of her remained with her even in death.

Now we have heard this before that a part of an animal that has been warged by its owner remains with them after death. Why wouldn't the same be true with the animal remaining a part of the owner after death? That's my opinion on the matter. Sansa knows she is a Stark of Winterfell and whatever she does, even if it causes her death, I truly believe that she will do her best to get Winterfell back in Stark hands. She is a Lannister by marriage, but the marriage was never consummated which can be verified by any Maester and can be nullified. Just my opinion.

[kimim]

This notion that every one of the Starks had their head in the sand as Sansa did must stop. Jon's deas about the NW were similar to most people's perception of it. When he mentions it to his uncle, Benjen does not say you have no idea how horrible it is. He cautions Jon to think of what he would have to give up. If his own uncle doesn't tell him about the harsh realities of the Wall, how would Jon know what to expect before he got there? That's hardly having ideas about the NW. There are many noble sons there including the Benjen Stark so Jon's ideas of being able to craft a life for himself there are not fantasy. What's more, as another poster already meantioned, when he arrives and sees it's not what he expected, he adapted.

Arya may or may not have been forced to marry eventually but who's to say that she wouldn't have a found a match that would agree with her personailty? Having her enjoy different activities than that of a genteel lady wasn't so unusual since we see Lyanna did the same. And she wasn't oblivious to what was expected of her she just perferred to do other things. She continued her lessons but it does seem to be her natural instincts and talents (that went against the norm of the lessons she was receiving) that have saved her. When she is in company that requires her to be more courteous, she adapted.

And are we really trying to make a case that Bran was delusional in thinking he'd become a knight? What else would he have done had he not fallen from the tower? It was most definitely a realistic option considering he was a second son.

Sansa does not get criticized for liking songs and fairytales. She gets criticized for believing them to be true even when she is shown differently. She doesn't adapt until her father's head rolls off. That's the problem. She willfully ignores what she sees and puts fault and blame on others to keep those who have a role in her "song" intact.

And while Robb was in over his head with the Westerlings and I disagree with the choices he made, he didn't make them because he was living in a fantasy world. He made his decisions with the values and experiences he's been exposed to. I don't say that to excuse his decision but it is different from Sansa's behavior. He recognizes he has offended the Freys but hopes to smooth it over. He weighs his two options and makes a decision. Sansa doesn't recognize anything happening around her until her father is killed. That's the big difference between Sansa and her siblings. She chooses to ignore what is happening around her until it is too late. She refuses to adapt her way of thinking until she finally makes a choice to go to Cersei for help in staying in KL and is made a hostage.

But she is adapting now which is the point of her arc. Fans who want to deny her start lessen the progress she's made. She is observing what is happening now and processing it so she can act accordingly. She is finally adapting! She did not do that before but she is choosing to do it now. That's her growth in her arc. Why are we undermining it by saying she was part of some conspiracy of the North to make all the Stark kids more naive than any other noble kid in Westeros? The Starks were no more naive than any other of the kids we see with the exception of Margaery.

Whatever force left those cubs for Ned's kids considered Sansa a Stark. Sansa's fantasy world, her fondness for Lannisters, her longing for the south, her refusal to see how Joff contributed to the disaster with Micah, started before she lost Lady. After, yes, the story is about how she adapts to her new circumstances, and how she learns to survive. I don't believe in a genetic "Starkness," other than the ability to warg. There is also location. A couple of consequences of losing Lady might be that Sansa is either very late developing her warging, or might never develop it completely. She might succeed at playing pure politics, which is something her siblings don't excel at. She might make her home in the south.

Re "fantasy worlds," Sansa is a pre-teen, barely eleven, when she goes south. Winterfell is a dark, disturbing place, and she doesn't want to go back there. Her father doesn't give her reasons for returning home, but just tells her to pack up. As far as Sansa's concerned, that's as bad as death, so she goes to Cersei. I can completely see why she does; it's her fault, yes, but it's even more Ned's fault.

Ned's my favorite character, but he's not any more reality based than Sansa, once he's south, anyway. He is culturally northern, and he inserts those values where they don't belong. He assumes his children will do as they're told, and doesn't take into consideration Sansa' feelings. Arya he gets, possibly because being male, he feels more comfortable with her. He mishandles LF and Cersei; the deaths of his men are on him. Like Sansa, he wakes up and sees all his mistakes in the dungeons, but by that time, it's too late.

Same with Arya, who is living in a fantasy world that surpasses Sansa's. Like it or not, she's female, and being a warrior is usually reserved for men. Sure she could find someone who pleases her, and be happy with her role, but the same is true of Sansa. imo she would have been very happy with Willas. Looking at Arya's ideals, her hopes for the future are even wilder than Sansa's, who at least accepts the social role she will need to occupy as a female.

Same goes for Robb: What he does with Jeyne is straight out of all the songs Sansa loves, and it kills him.

[Elaena Targaryen]

This is my take on the "Sansa is just like Ned" debate. Ask yourself if you can only use one word to describe any character what would it be, what's their most defining trait, what is the main thing that motivates them? Sure you could come up with several for Ned like; honorable, honest, trustworthy, etc. The word that encompasses Ned for me is integrity. He would sacrifice himself for the sake of his integrity, it is that important to him. He serves a higher purpose. Does that make Ned righteous? By the precise definition, yes, but it does not mean that you are a bad person if something else drives you, it just makes you who you are.

Integrity may not be gray but it is still a very fluid thing where you must prioritize based on circumstances, and Ned is deft at finding the balance for himself for the most part. I really can not blame Ned for telling Cersei to take the children and flee, even though it was a risk it was the decent thing to do, and he would not have been able to live with himself otherwise. You know it really wasn't a deadly thing to underestimate her, Cersei had no plans to kill Ned, he would have felt he kept his honor even with losing, it's just that no one factored in Joffery. I really can not blame Ned for trusting Littlefinger, he had to trust someone in this situation, and he had a good reason to do so. Catelyn. Ned values Cat's opinion so you would have to show where she has steered him wrong in the past to prove that it was a mistake to do so here. "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was . . . not without honor.", Ned lies about committing treason to save Sansa when he would not even lie to save himself.

Integrity plays an interesting role in all of the kids arcs, you can't be raised by a man like that and it not intensely effect you. This may even be what some try to grope for when they discuss "Starkness" because it is such a defining aspect of our current crop. Robb has integrity but he struggles with it in his story by breaking his betrothal and marrying the girl he dishonored. I really can't blame Robb or Cat for hoping they could patch things up with the Freys, no one would expect wholesale slaughter. They knew breaking the betrothal was a huge mistake, they were nervous, they did have reservations, the Freys were vassals that already made one alliance, they had protection of guest right, but Walder not only lacks integrity he thought he was a mini Tywin.

Integrity is a major theme in Jon's arc where he is constantly grappling with gaining the surety he admired in Ned. All of Jon's mentors had confidence with their integrity but they also understood the constant struggle, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." I don't blame Jon for having an idealized view of the Night's Watch since once he became disappointed by the reality of it he also took advice from men of integrity. Some of his choices through his story can be argued over but really it was just a choice of one facet over another.

Bran embraces integrity and we also see Maester Luwin trying to consul him as Ned would. Look at how he tries to take care of the people of Winterfell when Theon crashed the party. Where he really struggles though is concerning magic, warging Hodor is where he is unquestionably failing. The first time was an accident, the fight was understandable, but beyond that not so much. Rickon, well he was what three the last time we saw him? Should be interesting when we see him again, but I think Osha recognized and respected the integrity of the Starks.

Arya starts out hardcore chalk full of integrity, even with ignoring social conventions, she takes a very pragmatic view. While going through all of her trials it's very interesting what happens with Arya's integrity arc. While I don't believe she has lost it completely it does fluctuate. At any given time it is very arguable to what extent she still has it, how convinced she is that she lives by it, how much she uses, twists and manipulates it to serve her needs. Which the latter would be the opposite of integrity. However, it is a very intense thing for her and it could be more of a matter of what she feels demands justice skewing her views and she ends up struggling with all the wrong things.

Sansa, in the beginning, has a more skewed view of integrity, a romanticized fairytale version. I feel this is from the sense of security she felt by having such a steadfast father. However this skewed view still does not serve a higher purpose. Sansa and Arya may look at integrity from opposite ends of the spectrum but they still have arc similarities. Like Arya it fluctuates throughout her trials and her arc. Like Arya it's very arguable, at any given time, to what extent she still has it, how convinced she is that she lives by it, how much she uses, twists and manipulates it to serve her own ends. But I feel that Sansa, unlike Ned, was never defined by it or ever wanted to be. Sansa never really fully understood what integrity truly is, sure she has strong doses of it, everyone does, but it was never going to be her life's mission. I feel Sansa learned more about what integrity really means when for the first time she spent time with people who have none, the contrast and compare made her proud of her family. Now with Littlefinger I worry again like I worry about Bran and Arya.

In the end can you say "Sansa is just like Ned"? While yes they have some superficial similarities Ned was defined to his very core by integrity and it's just not Sansa's priority, and arguable if she even can fully grasp the concept, or ever consciously strives to struggle in her soul with it... I have to think the answer is no they are not just alike.

Next I have a superficial observation of a shift I noticed when I read through this thread. In the beginning some argue that Sansa is Sansa Stark and not Sansa Lannister even though she married a Lannister. As the discourse flowed it changed to something that on the surface appears contradictory. While debating Sansa siding with Joffery and Cersei over her family it's argued that she has to, since she is betrothed they are her family now. Yes I'm aware both cases are more complicated than that as it ignores the context of force and choice. So, while not surprising, Sansa does not owe Tyrion anything because she was forced into the marriage while she does owe Joffery because she chooses it. It's the amount of agency in this patriarchal society that's intriguing since I have not looked quite that closely before. Just the fact that the women can have the choice over their name and the variety of examples of relationships with their birth families versus the families they married into is interesting. Look at Cersei a Lannister to the core, look at Catelyn a nice balance. Some agency even if in a minor way in the grand scheme.

[Mladen]

This is my take on the "Sansa is just like Ned" debate. Ask yourself if you can only use one word to describe any character what would it be, what's their most defining trait, what is the main thing that motivates them? Sure you could come up with several for Ned like; honorable, honest, trustworthy, etc. The word that encompasses Ned for me is integrity. He would sacrifice himself for the sake of his integrity, it is that important to him. He serves a higher purpose. Does that make Ned righteous? By the precise definition, yes, but it does not mean that you are a bad person if something else drives you, it just makes you who you are.

He sacrificed himself for his own daughter, not some high purpose. His integrity would be intact if he said "Screw you, you are not a King". He was the man who spent lying to his King for the past 14 years. Ned is honorable, man who does the right thing, but his integrity is not intact. Far from it. He knows how to lie.

Integrity may not be gray but it is still a very fluid thing where you must prioritize based on circumstances, and Ned is deft at finding the balance for himself for the most part. I really can not blame Ned for telling Cersei to take the children and flee, even though it was a risk it was the decent thing to do, and he would not have been able to live with himself otherwise. You know it really wasn't a deadly thing to underestimate her, Cersei had no plans to kill Ned, he would have felt he kept his honor even with losing, it's just that no one factored in Joffery. I really can not blame Ned for trusting Littlefinger, he had to trust someone in this situation, and he had a good reason to do so. Catelyn. Ned values Cat's opinion so you would have to show where she has steered him wrong in the past to prove that it was a mistake to do so here. "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was . . . not without honor.", Ned lies about committing treason to save Sansa when he would not even lie to save himself.

So, basically we should forgive him for being nonsensically blind to the danger, that he was trusting people whom he knew are rotten? And why should we do that? Because he is a good guy? There are plenty of good people who don't go through the world being blind and idiotic. Naivete and idiocy are not necessarily virtues, regardless what one may feel about it.

Integrity plays an interesting role in all of the kids arcs, you can't be raised by a man like that and it not intensely effect you. This may even be what some try to grope for when they discuss "Starkness" because it is such a defining aspect of our current crop. Robb has integrity but he struggles with it in his story by breaking his betrothal and marrying the girl he dishonored. I really can't blame Robb or Cat for hoping they could patch things up with the Freys, no one would expect wholesale slaughter. They knew breaking the betrothal was a huge mistake, they were nervous, they did have reservations, the Freys were vassals that already made one alliance, they had protection of guest right, but Walder not only lacks integrity he thought he was a mini Tywin.

We talk about integrity of the man who broke his word? And who basically proclaimed himself a King without any right, fully aware of that? I am sorry, but your definition of the word seems a little bit problematic for me. He doesn't "struggle" with integrity, he practically loses it. That certainly doesn't justify Walder, but we shouldn't behave like what Robb did wasn't offensive and dishonorable.

Integrity is a major theme in Jon's arc where he is constantly grappling with gaining the surety he admired in Ned. All of Jon's mentors had confidence with their integrity but they also understood the constant struggle, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." I don't blame Jon for having an idealized view of the Night's Watch since once he became disappointed by the reality of it he also took advice from men of integrity. Some of his choices through his story can be argued over but really it was just a choice of one facet over another.

So, after this, I am to conclude that integrity means "having fantasy view on certain things"? Or that we can freely say "character X and Y have integrity because I like them, and those I don't, they don't have it"

Arya starts out hardcore chalk full of integrity, even with ignoring social conventions, she takes a very pragmatic view. While going through all of her trials it's very interesting what happens with Arya's integrity arc. While I don't believe she has lost it completely it does fluctuate. At any given time it is very arguable to what extent she still has it, how convinced she is that she lives by it, how much she uses, twists and manipulates it to serve her needs. Which the latter would be the opposite of integrity. However, it is a very intense thing for her and it could be more of a matter of what she feels demands justice skewing her views and she ends up struggling with all the wrong things.

So, damaged girl who is joining the assassin's guild has only "fluctuating" integrity. You are well aware that Faceless Men kill whomever they are paid to?

Sansa never really fully understood what integrity truly is, sure she has strong doses of it, everyone does, but it was never going to be her life's mission.

Everyone does? Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, Ramsay, Gregor, Roose, Walder, Craster, slave masters, Xaro, etc... I can't even list all of those who don't fit into whole "everyone".

In the end can you say "Sansa is just like Ned"? While yes they have some superficial similarities Ned was defined to his very core by integrity and it's just not Sansa's priority, and arguable if she even can fully grasp the concept, or ever consciously strives to struggle in her soul with it... I have to think the answer is no they are not just alike.

Superficial things? Interests, exterior looks? Those are superficial things? Psychological profiles most definitely are not. The view on the world is definitely not. The sense of morality most definitely not.

While debating Sansa siding with Joffery and Cersei over her family it's argued that she has to, since she is betrothed they are her family now.

And here is something people constantly forget: She didn't side with Cersei and Joffrey. She tried to be neutral because she was put in terrible position.