Sansa is not a Stark

[David Selig]

This is my take on the "Sansa is just like Ned" debate. Ask yourself if you can only use one word to describe any character what would it be, what's their most defining trait, what is the main thing that motivates them? Sure you could come up with several for Ned like; honorable, honest, trustworthy, etc. The word that encompasses Ned for me is integrity. He would sacrifice himself for the sake of his integrity, it is that important to him. He serves a higher purpose. Does that make Ned righteous? By the precise definition, yes, but it does not mean that you are a bad person if something else drives you, it just makes you who you are.

Really? Ned lied to everyone for 15 years about Jon. He lied about ordering his wife to arrest Tyrion. He lied to save Sansa's life. He had a talk with Sansa where he explained how sometimes lies are necessary and morally OK. All of these are commendable acts in my book, but he is certainly not someone who is honest at all costs and honesty isn't his top priority IMO.

Integrity plays an interesting role in all of the kids arcs, you can't be raised by a man like that and it not intensely effect you. This may even be what some try to grope for when they discuss "Starkness" because it is such a defining aspect of our current crop.

They were also raised by a mother who IIRC never actually lies in the series except when she said she was taking Tyrion to WF when she arrested him and a few small white lies for courtesy's sake (and even that). So maybe it would be better to call it "Tullyness". ;)

[Elaena Targaryen]

Really?

Yes, really. I don't think that integrity only means "someone who will always tell the absolute truth and never ever lies", which is likely impossible. I would have said Ned is consistently honest if that's only what I meant. Integrity is subjective with honesty being one facet, albeit very important. I feel Martin is saying something in a commentary regarding integrity and of the flexibility necessary when your beliefs are challenged with Ned, and the children with their varying degrees of success and failure throughout their arcs.

Ned lied to everyone for 15 years about Jon. He lied about ordering his wife to arrest Tyrion. He lied to save Sansa's life.

Ned places other facets of integrity above honesty in every case that you cite, and they were intended for the benefit of others. Since we don't know all of the specific details regarding lying about Jon I assume Ned placed a higher value on honoring promises, but it seems clear that this is one choice that shames and haunts him for more than one reason so I find it his most intriguing behavior. With Cat arresting Tyrion Ned has a moral responsibility to defend his house and to protect his wife, he also trusts and respects Cat's judgment to maintain political integrity. I honestly can not believe I even need to defend the lie to save Sansa's life... for me it was the righteous thing to do, the lie was honorable.

He had a talk with Sansa where he explained how sometimes lies are necessary and morally OK.

Sorry David I'm tired and I do not recall this right now so I'm unclear on your point without the reference. But on the surface I would say it sounds like it comes back to subjectivity and flexibility.

All of these are commendable acts in my book, but he is certainly not someone who is honest at all costs and honesty isn't his top priority IMO.

I'm not surprised you find them commendable. I usually find myself agreeing with your posts and at the least find them sensible when I have quibbles, lol. I hope I have articulated myself well enough that you understand honesty alone was not my focus or point.

They were also raised by a mother who IIRC never actually lies in the series except when she said she was taking Tyrion to WF when she arrested him and a few small white lies for courtesy's sake (and even that). So maybe it would be better to call it "Tullyness". ;)

Very good point, Cat is awsomesauce. Even though Cat is a Tully I always mentally include her when I comment on Starks. I'm afraid that [Tullyness] won't work to rid us of this "Starkness" enigma. (As an aside, I still can't discuss Cat in depth since the RW, she is my favorite character and I'm very emotionally attached to her.)

Anyway "it" was just a random thought I had while I was mulling over my thoughts for my post when I thought about how integrity effects the children. I would also like to add that I'm not trying to say integrity is an end all be all, we all have it and grapple with it in different cultures and contexts, it just some people make it a prime motivating factor in their lives, and again I think Martin is writing a commentary on the difficulty of managing that.

[Pod The Rod]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people look at Sansa's bitchy, snobby, infuriatingly annoying actions in the first book, and somehow think that she is still like that in the fourth. She changes. Just like Jaime, just like Tyrion, just like almost every character in the story. Sansa learns, adapts, and becomes wiser.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

All had good reasons. What reason did Sansa have to rat out her father? "oh i want to stay in kl and marry a psychopath". Yea, good reason.

She was a child and had no idea what was going on in the political arena. She was in love and Joff had yet to show his true colors other than Lady's death which was more Cersei than Joff. Love makes people stupid, especially young people.

[Sweetgirl205]

I'm tired of the Sansa isn't smart because she believes in happily ever after. So did Arya. "Arya could reveal herself to Lady Whent, and the knights would escort her home. That was what knights did; they kept you safe, especially women." (CoK pg 213.

Sansa is her father's daughter. She believes all knights are as honorable as her father because of the way she was raised.

[Sweetgirl205]

She was a child and had no idea what was going on in the political arena. She was in love and Joff had yet to show his true colors other than Lady's death which was more Cersei than Joff. Love makes people stupid, especially young people.

Exactly. Sansa just saw a pretty face and the excitement of King's Landing. Except for the incident with Nymeria, Sansa never saw the ugly side of Joffery or Cersie until he cut Ned's head off.

[Nictarion]

Exactly. Sansa just saw a pretty face and the excitement of King's Landing. Except for the incident with Nymeria, Sansa never saw the ugly side of Joffery or Cersie until he cut Ned's head off.

What more evidence should she have needed? The Mycah incident should have been enough. There was also the incident where one of the Lannisters had her father's men (including Jory who she knew her whole life) killed. There is no defense for the way Sansa went against her family in AGoT.

[Mladen]

What more evidence should she have needed? The Mycah incident should have been enough. There was also the incident where one of the Lannisters had her father's men (including Jory who she knew her whole life) killed. There is no defense for the way Sansa went against her family in AGoT.

Really? Let we look at it from another perspective. We are here talking about creating entire set of mind which goes against everything she is witnessing, much like Viserys has done with Daenerys. And Dany is even older than Sansa and five books later she still has a firm grasp of the stories she knows are false. So, when we talk about "no forgiveness" let we all remember that in this series there are far more deluded characters than Sansa.

[Nictarion]

Really? Let we look at it from another perspective. We are here talking about creating entire set of mind which goes against everything she is witnessing, much like Viserys has done with Daenerys. And Dany is even older than Sansa and five books later she still has a firm grasp of the stories she knows are false. So, when we talk about "no forgiveness" let we all remember that in this series there are far more deluded characters than Sansa.

Nice defense. Dany is worse! I will say again, there's no defense for the way Sansa acted in AGoT. Period.

[Mladen]

Nice defense. Dany is worse! I will say again, there's no defense for the way Sansa acted in AGoT. Period.

You missed the point. This is not who is worse. This is about Sansa have had a certain mindset which we can blame on. She was believing in all the fairytales and she suddenly was in the real world where the things she believed were collapsing in front of her. She had to make a choice and she was lost. The Trident incident alone was her failed attempt to be on all sides. We see, even the havoc with Ned's imprisonment how she dreams of changing Joffrey's mind and how he would do that for her. We are talking about a girl here that was sincerely deluded about the true nature of things without necessary resources to figure them out earlier.

The same goes with Dany, or if you prefer, with Arya and Brotherhood. We are speaking here of subjective realities. Sansa's reality was so annoyingly idiotic, but we know where it came from. People resent Daenerys for not realizing who her father is. How long do you think Dany was making excuses for Viserys before realizing he is pointless? How long do you think Dany will be resilient to the truth about Aerys? We have seen how painful it was for Arya to understand that the new friends are trying to sell her. We have seen how painful it was for Sansa. So, regardless whether for you this is inexcusable, the same argument can be made for quite numerous characters in ASOIAF. How long Tyrion was deluding himself about Casterly Rock? Or Jaime about Cersei's nature? Or Robert about, well, his entire life?

[BitsOfBrains]

I think Sansa has been destarketized the same you can demagnetize a magnet by hitting it a bunch.

Her role in the book is to exist as a threat to one of the Stark boys or Jon Snow taking Winterfell, at least thats what I see.

Maybe I am wrong.

[Mladen]

I think Sansa has been destarketized the same you can demagnetize a magnet by hitting it a bunch.

Her role in the book is to exist as a threat to one of the Stark boys or Jon Snow taking Winterfell, at least thats what I see.

Maybe I am wrong.

So, the girl who doesn't want Winterfell and who never considered WF as her own property would be a threat to the brothers she adore and she couldn't be more happy to see?

[BitsOfBrains]

So, the girl who doesn't want Winterfell and who never considered WF as her own property would be a threat to the brothers she adore and she couldn't be more happy to see?

Not her personally, not at all.

She will be used as a pawn, like a living title or deed to Winterfell.

No I don't mean she will lead a host to snatch it from Rickon, I mean some dude will marry her and use her as a excuse to steal the north.

[Mladen]

Not her personally, not at all.

She will be used as a pawn, like a living title or deed to Winterfell.

No I don't mean she will lead a host to snatch it from Rickon, I mean some dude will marry her and use her as a excuse to steal the north.

Sansa's story is about empowerment, even Martin himself said she has the "wits of her own". So, I seriously doubt GRRM intended to have her partake in any sort of snatching North from her brothers.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa is a renoun beauty. Everyone up North had seen her, she was the jewel of the Starks in that every lord wanted her for marriage for themselves or their heirs.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

This is my take on the "Sansa is just like Ned" debate. Ask yourself if you can only use one word to describe any character what would it be, what's their most defining trait, what is the main thing that motivates them? Sure you could come up with several for Ned like; honorable, honest, trustworthy, etc. The word that encompasses Ned for me is integrity. He would sacrifice himself for the sake of his integrity, it is that important to him. He serves a higher purpose. Does that make Ned righteous? By the precise definition, yes, but it does not mean that you are a bad person if something else drives you, it just makes you who you are.

Integrity may not be gray but it is still a very fluid thing where you must prioritize based on circumstances, and Ned is deft at finding the balance for himself for the most part. I really can not blame Ned for telling Cersei to take the children and flee, even though it was a risk it was the decent thing to do, and he would not have been able to live with himself otherwise. You know it really wasn't a deadly thing to underestimate her, Cersei had no plans to kill Ned, he would have felt he kept his honor even with losing, it's just that no one factored in Joffery. I really can not blame Ned for trusting Littlefinger, he had to trust someone in this situation, and he had a good reason to do so. Catelyn. Ned values Cat's opinion so you would have to show where she has steered him wrong in the past to prove that it was a mistake to do so here. "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was . . . not without honor.", Ned lies about committing treason to save Sansa when he would not even lie to save himself.

Integrity plays an interesting role in all of the kids arcs, you can't be raised by a man like that and it not intensely effect you. This may even be what some try to grope for when they discuss "Starkness" because it is such a defining aspect of our current crop. Robb has integrity but he struggles with it in his story by breaking his betrothal and marrying the girl he dishonored. I really can't blame Robb or Cat for hoping they could patch things up with the Freys, no one would expect wholesale slaughter. They knew breaking the betrothal was a huge mistake, they were nervous, they did have reservations, the Freys were vassals that already made one alliance, they had protection of guest right, but Walder not only lacks integrity he thought he was a mini Tywin.

Integrity is a major theme in Jon's arc where he is constantly grappling with gaining the surety he admired in Ned. All of Jon's mentors had confidence with their integrity but they also understood the constant struggle, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." I don't blame Jon for having an idealized view of the Night's Watch since once he became disappointed by the reality of it he also took advice from men of integrity. Some of his choices through his story can be argued over but really it was just a choice of one facet over another.

Bran embraces integrity and we also see Maester Luwin trying to consul him as Ned would. Look at how he tries to take care of the people of Winterfell when Theon crashed the party. Where he really struggles though is concerning magic, warging Hodor is where he is unquestionably failing. The first time was an accident, the fight was understandable, but beyond that not so much. Rickon, well he was what three the last time we saw him? Should be interesting when we see him again, but I think Osha recognized and respected the integrity of the Starks.

Arya starts out hardcore chalk full of integrity, even with ignoring social conventions, she takes a very pragmatic view. While going through all of her trials it's very interesting what happens with Arya's integrity arc. While I don't believe she has lost it completely it does fluctuate. At any given time it is very arguable to what extent she still has it, how convinced she is that she lives by it, how much she uses, twists and manipulates it to serve her needs. Which the latter would be the opposite of integrity. However, it is a very intense thing for her and it could be more of a matter of what she feels demands justice skewing her views and she ends up struggling with all the wrong things.

Sansa, in the beginning, has a more skewed view of integrity, a romanticized fairytale version. I feel this is from the sense of security she felt by having such a steadfast father. However this skewed view still does not serve a higher purpose. Sansa and Arya may look at integrity from opposite ends of the spectrum but they still have arc similarities. Like Arya it fluctuates throughout her trials and her arc. Like Arya it's very arguable, at any given time, to what extent she still has it, how convinced she is that she lives by it, how much she uses, twists and manipulates it to serve her own ends. But I feel that Sansa, unlike Ned, was never defined by it or ever wanted to be. Sansa never really fully understood what integrity truly is, sure she has strong doses of it, everyone does, but it was never going to be her life's mission. I feel Sansa learned more about what integrity really means when for the first time she spent time with people who have none, the contrast and compare made her proud of her family. Now with Littlefinger I worry again like I worry about Bran and Arya.

In the end can you say "Sansa is just like Ned"? While yes they have some superficial similarities Ned was defined to his very core by integrity and it's just not Sansa's priority, and arguable if she even can fully grasp the concept, or ever consciously strives to struggle in her soul with it... I have to think the answer is no they are not just alike.

Next I have a superficial observation of a shift I noticed when I read through this thread. In the beginning some argue that Sansa is Sansa Stark and not Sansa Lannister even though she married a Lannister. As the discourse flowed it changed to something that on the surface appears contradictory. While debating Sansa siding with Joffery and Cersei over her family it's argued that she has to, since she is betrothed they are her family now. Yes I'm aware both cases are more complicated than that as it ignores the context of force and choice. So, while not surprising, Sansa does not owe Tyrion anything because she was forced into the marriage while she does owe Joffery because she chooses it. It's the amount of agency in this patriarchal society that's intriguing since I have not looked quite that closely before. Just the fact that the women can have the choice over their name and the variety of examples of relationships with their birth families versus the families they married into is interesting. Look at Cersei a Lannister to the core, look at Catelyn a nice balance. Some agency even if in a minor way in the grand scheme.

This is a great post! And I would say integrity is a good word for Ned despite the secret he kept for 15 years. For a while I thought Martin was trying to make the point that people who do the right thing are foolish but I think the point he's trying to make (I will need to wait for the series to be completed to be sure) is that it's foolish to believe you should do the right thing all the time but that it is definitely what you should strive for.

Ned held onto his traditional values and integrity when he refused to make deals with Renly and LF and it cost him dearly. He should have been more flexible here as he was when he bargained for Sansa's life. But it is the fact that he held onto these values that the entre Northern movement has rallyed around. It is these values that the author himself is using to define the Stark children''s greyness. And ultimately I suspect it is these values that will help rebuild Winterfell. So I think it's not holding onto it no matter what - let's not forget the words the author gives Bronn when he wins Tyrion's freedom: "He fought with honor and he's dead." But he also shows that Ned's values seem to be the moral center for much of the story.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people look at Sansa's bitchy, snobby, infuriatingly annoying actions in the first book, and somehow think that she is still like that in the fourth. She changes. Just like Jaime, just like Tyrion, just like almost every character in the story. Sansa learns, adapts, and becomes wiser.

I don't think anyone has said she hasn't changed. People are discussing book 1 primarily in this thread.

[RavenKing23]

I don't know that her missing wolf will play into the story, I think it's more symbolic. Sansa's wolf is dead and her Starkiness is dying as well. She's becoming deceptive instead of honorable. She's becoming uncaring and cruel instead of compassionate. She's becoming selfish instead of selfless.

On the other side of the coin is Arya whose wolf is lost. She's actively trying to forget who she is, but since her wolf is alive and only lost, she's symbolically holding onto who she is better. She will regain her identity, but Sansa will not.

Da fuk? Did you just compare Sansa as the unfeeling, cruel one to Arya who is becoming a goddamn assassin?

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I do not think Arya is trying to forget who she is, I think she is trying very hard to convince the kindly man that it is her intention to become no one. The hiding of her sword, Needle and of course the Mercy chapter shows clearly that Arya has no intention of forgetting who she is or where she came from. Arya wants revenge. I hope her prayers are answered.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

What more evidence should she have needed? The Mycah incident should have been enough. There was also the incident where one of the Lannisters had her father's men (including Jory who she knew her whole life) killed. There is no defense for the way Sansa went against her family in AGoT.

Young people (and often older people as well) rationalize the behavior of the people they love simply because they love them. She was only a girl. She thought pleading with Joff for mercy for her father would make everything right. He told her it would. How was she to know that Joff was a sociopath? Its not something that makes itself apparent to innocence. In Sansa's eyes, she had ensured her father's life by begging for it openly in court. Sansa's reality check came when she heard Joff give the order to "bring me his head" and ever after she hated Joff with a passion that far exceded any feeling she had for him before the moment she saw her father die. Justifying her going to the Queen with her father's plans was just her selfish and TEENAGE wish to remain with the boy she loved. She did not know she was putting her entire family in peril, including herself. That she was a selfish little girl who thought only of what she wanted before her father died is very easy to understand. I have a harder time understanding why she gave no thought to her little sister Arya.

[Facebookless Man]

^ Sansa was never in love with Joffrey.