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On the Sand Snakes


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<p>According to the Huffington Post, <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/03/03/game-of-thrones-sand-snakes-racist_n_6795148.html">an uproar</a> about the casting of the Sand Snakes, the daughters of <a href="http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Characters/Entry/Oberyn_Nymeros_Martell">Prince Oberyn Martell</a> by various women. Tthe recent <a href="http://www.westeros.org/GoT/News/Entry/The_Weapons_of_Dorne">Weapons of Dorne</a> video which gave many fans their first really clear look at the actors in costume made a few on Twitter realize that the characters did not really look very much like the characters described in the books… but the outrage isn’t about that, but rather by the fact that all the characters are “white”.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, this says more about reader myopia than it does the show’s casting. The outrage is based on the reading of the Dornish as being “another race” than the people you’ll find in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, but in fact that divides in Westeros are not really racial but ethnic in nature, largely about culture and not skin color. According to George R.R. Martin, this is <a href="http://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17863242#t17863242">how he envisioned</a> the Dornish when he created them:</p>

<strong><a href="http://www.westeros.org/GoT/News/Entry/On_the_Sand_Snakes">read on &gt;&gt;&gt;</a></strong>

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Maybe its just me be where the heck is all of this Internet Uproar that Huffington Post is talking about


I don't see anybody talking about the race of Sand Snakes except Huffington Post



the only issue people had with the sand snakes were the nipples on their armor and even that was more of minor gripe than a full blown Internet Uproar




I really does feel like Huffington Post is trying manufacture a controversy where none exist




P.S. This kind of reminds me of a stunt that Winter is coming.com tried to pull a few days ago


when they claimed that their was this Massive Internet Uproar over Alex Graves commentary on the season 4 DVD



they ended up pulling the article after people in the comment section called them on it lol


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I don't get if they all are green as long as they get them right, and I doubt they will, tbh.

Also, how are Keisha Castle-Hughes and Jessica Henwick "too white"? Isn't that racist? Their skin might be a bit lighter, but that's very awful thing to say. There is more to a "race" than the colour.

(why isn't Tyene blond???)

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Also, how are Keisha Castle-Hughes and Jessica Henwick "too white"? Isn't that racist? Their skin might be a bit lighter, but that's very awful thing to say. There is more to a "race" than the colour.

Exactly. I don't think they'd react too happily to reading that from the Huffpost.

I mean, obviously the article's vulture journalist clickbait as is the Huffpost's wont but this time they're potentially being very insulting too by reporting on this so-called "controversy" (that is not being discussed with much ire here, on WOTW or on ASOIAF, I might add).

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As people pointed out in another thread, show!Dorne is already more racially diverse than book!Dorne

Also, Tyene doesn't look a bit like her book counterpart, and I don't think it has nothing to do with her not being blonde. Of course, I'm basing this on the stills and the double daggers thing, but obviously her personality could be in line with the book version, who knows

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While the specific article is nonsense, it raises a question, ser.

Ran: I have no idea what the hell is going on with TV-Tyene. Her character is the only Sand Snake in the novels who is definitely "white" in appearance, she takes after her mother who wasn't from Dorne, daughter of a septa, etc. As you are painfully aware, the casting blurbs at SDCC 2014 were so odd that they seem to be in error -- we as yet have no "official" character bios for the TV versions of these characters (in a few weeks we're bound to get a video FORMALLY introducing each, but until then...)

To this end, I left a note on the Tyene article over on the Game of Thrones TV series wiki: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tyene_Sand#In_the_books

The note outright points out "we'll believe that character description when we hear it confirmed".

It just doesn't make sense....well......look, Tyene CAN plausibly be Ellaria's daughter, she might just take after a non-Dornish grandparent. The Martells have doubtless intermarried with non-Dornish in recent generations (even the Targaryens one century ago)....but it just....strains the plausibility. I'm having trouble verbalizing and I'm asking for help here: does it in any way seem okay for them to just make Tyene Ellaria's daughter? In the novels the whole point is that Tyene ISN'T Ellaria's daughter, thus why she doesn't look like her. She's the proverbial red-headed stepchild! It's as if they cast for book-Tyene, then changed her parentage with no thought to the casting.

I think making Nymeria's mother "from the east" in the sense of "from Yi Ti" and not just "from Volantis" was actually a nifty idea, good way to work Yi Ti in there.

I'm stunned that some of these initial reactions think they "Whitewashed" these characters though: Half-Maori Hughes...looks more or less as Pedro Pascal did, not exactly "white" but on the hispanic spectrum for a pseudo-Spain. ....Nymeria, blatantly played by a Chinese actress, yet they call it "white"? Tyene IS white in the novels, that's the thing.....

....what I'm annoyed about isn't them changing races (they didn't particularly)....but at the inconsistency viz Ellaria.

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Half-Maori Hughes...looks more or less as Pedro Pascal did, not exactly "white" but on the hispanic spectrum for a pseudo-Spain.

Hold on. Just because we're not white doesn't mean we all look the same. Pedro and Hughes both come from completely different ethnicities. Pascal most likely could have some European ancestry (Italian, probably) like many Chileans have, but that's it.

While I'm all for Siddig being Doran, having a latino actor being the brother of an sudanese-british one is something Hollywood often does, like we all brownish people are the same :dunno: I'm not offended but it's a bit disrespectful.

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While the specific article is nonsense, it raises a question, ser.

Ran: I have no idea what the hell is going on with TV-Tyene. Her character is the only Sand Snake in the novels who is definitely "white" in appearance, she takes after her mother who wasn't from Dorne, daughter of a septa, etc. As you are painfully aware, the casting blurbs at SDCC 2014 were so odd that they seem to be in error -- we as yet have no "official" character bios for the TV versions of these characters (in a few weeks we're bound to get a video FORMALLY introducing each, but until then...)

You seriously don't see ANY resemblance between these two? http://postimg.org/image/7adw3unip/

I'm pretty sure given the changed background to the character, Rosabelle was cast with resembling her in mind and them looking more alike might be one of the reasons Ellaria has shorter hair in s5 (to match showTyene's).

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Tabloid journalism used to be about sensational crime stories now some jerk troll can make a subset of the WEB go Able Sugar about fabricated trivia.

And even major TV networks will present mindless minutiae on YouTube as news!

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Well...Sarella's mother was a Summer Islander, and they have been established in both book and show as being similar to our world's Africans in appearance. When and if she's cast, I hope her appearance will reflect that.



However, I don't know if the show will rewrite the SSs to all be Ellaria's kids, rather than have to explain Oberyn's complex love history. The HuffPo piece implies otherwise, but they may have been making assumptions based on the books.


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Hold on. Just because we're not white doesn't mean we all look the same. Pedro and Hughes both come from completely different ethnicities. Pascal most likely could have some European ancestry (Italian, probably) like many Chileans have, but that's it.

While I'm all for Siddig being Doran, having a latino actor being the brother of an sudanese-british one is something Hollywood often does, like we all brownish people are the same :dunno: I'm not offended but it's a bit disrespectful.

You have a point, but I don't think anybody would think it's disrespectful if, hypothetically, they made a Scottish guy brother to a French, or German guy. As long as they have a relatively similar complexion and accent (if any) I don't see much of a problem. (Though I should add I don't think Pascal or Siddig look anything alike whatsoever)

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You have a point, but I don't think anybody would think it's disrespectful if, hypothetically, they made a Scottish guy brother to a French, or German guy. As long as they have a relatively similar complexion and accent (if any) I don't see much of a problem. (Though I should add I don't think Pascal or Siddig look anything alike whatsoever)

Sometimes siblings do not look much alike. I was reading an article just the other day about a set of fraternal twins whose parents were white and black. One of the twins is white with red hair and the other looks like a light skinned African American. They don't look like sisters much less twins.

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You seriously don't see ANY resemblance between these two? http://postimg.org/image/7adw3unip/

I'm pretty sure given the changed background to the character, Rosabelle was cast with resembling her in mind and them looking more alike might be one of the reasons Ellaria has shorter hair in s5 (to match showTyene's).

Reminds me of this http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/340/340980/34098018/jpg/active/978x.jpg

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Sometimes siblings do not look much alike. I was reading an article just the other day about a set of fraternal twins whose parents were white and black. One of the twins is white with red hair and the other looks like a light skinned African American. They don't look like sisters much less twins.

Ah yes I've seen that as well! Quite interesting

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Sometimes siblings do not look much alike. I was reading an article just the other day about a set of fraternal twins whose parents were white and black. One of the twins is white with red hair and the other looks like a light skinned African American. They don't look like sisters much less twins.

The dad was mixed (white and black), while the mom was white, that will make quite a difference.

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It's not that it's implausible for Tyene to be Ellaria's daughter AND "white", given the mixed background of the Martells, but what I'm saying is that it needlessly complicates the point that Tyene is sort of the "redheaded stepchild" -- i.e. visibly must have a different parent because she doesn't look like the others.

It's not the end of the world, I just don't think it makes much sense....maybe if Cogman just calmly explained "we had to condense this" I'd be fine (it's not *implausible*)....and I'm more upset about Arianne anyway.

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Hold on. Just because we're not white doesn't mean we all look the same. Pedro and Hughes both come from completely different ethnicities. Pascal most likely could have some European ancestry (Italian, probably) like many Chileans have, but that's it.

While I'm all for Siddig being Doran, having a latino actor being the brother of an sudanese-british one is something Hollywood often does, like we all brownish people are the same :dunno: I'm not offended but it's a bit disrespectful.

Cliff Curtis has been used by Hollywood to play pretty much every well tanned ethnicity on the planet, aside from the one he is, which is Maori. But this is no different to getting a white people to play various white characters of different Eurasian ethnicities. You've got examples of actors from Yugoslavia being used to play characters from almost every Eastern European ethnicity, but no one seems to complain about that. Take Rade Sherbedgia for example, ethnically a Croatian-Serb, plays a Russian Prince in Downton Abbey and a Persian Imam in The Keeper.

I'm sure the actors themselves are mostly glad to get paying jobs.

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"Pascal most likely could have some European ancestry (Italian, probably) like many Chileans have, but that's it."



Might want to rethink this a bit. Likely he has at least some other European ancestary that being Spanish! If you look at what GRRM has said about Dorne, it's not that the Dornish are a different race but different ethnicity and resemble several Southern European peoples, Like Greeks, Italians, Spaniards and Portugese which have darker coloring then your traditional Northern European but are still "white". That the cast members appear "somewhat" white but not your typical Gailic or Nordic type is in keeping with the spirit of the books. That Tyene in the books is much closer to the Nordic white look and the TV Tyene is much closer to her "darker" siblings is simply the TV production trying to simplify the plot and reinforcing the point the Dorne is populated by darker people then the other parts of Westeros.



I believe that the Hoffington article is taking advantage of some real displeasure among book readers with the show casting but most of our objections are that the characters do not look like their book counterparts not that the show is being racist by casting "white looking" actors into roles intended to be portrayed as "people of color" which if you read the books is not really the case. The Dornish and most of the sand snakes in particular are depicted in the books as "darker", "swarthy" or golden complexion but not "non-white. In truth I as a Hispanic whose ancestary comes from Northern and Northwestern SpainI found the Hoffington article rather offensive in that it at least implicitly is making the argument that to be "white" you have to look like what the Nazis described as being of "pure Aryan" parentage (Your typical blond blue eyed Nordic look being the ideal with the Light skinned reddish and or brown haired Gailic or German stereotype being acceptable).




"(Though I should add I don't think Pascal or Siddig look anything alike whatsoever)"


Although both would not be out of place in a street scene in Spain, Southern Italy or Greece, which I think is the point of casting them. Moreover, members of families can look quite differently even when they come from a single racial line of parentage and the Martell's and the Dornish in general are known to have intermarried with non-Westeros stock so the differences between a "whiter" Pascal and a "darker" Siddig can be easily explained.



"Hold on. Just because we're not white doesn't mean we all look the same. "



Hmm, I would suggest that most Spaniards, would consider themselves white as would a large number of Hispanics from Latin America who can trace their ancestry to those born in Europe and have no indigenous American or African ancestors.


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