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BearQueen87

R+L =J v.135

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread


Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"


"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)

"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v. 134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

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No you don't get to be the OP and first post, redact the shinny.

@Alia, continuing from my last posst and your question about Rhaegar and Roberrt on the trident.

"Alia of the knife, on 05 Mar 2015 - 6:26 PM, said:

On Rhaegar and Elia, no, no matter what he might have felt for Lyanna, I think he was fond of Elia and certainly loved his children, It was said he doted on Rhaenys, and expected his faimly to be protected, so if we find out that Lyanna turned his head that much, I would be surprised, (though some of Jaimes dreaming could be a product of his guilt, or memories he'd shut out)."

"And love, love LOVE your take on Ashara and Lewyn, though I'm still in doubt, but very clever. :bowdown: :bowdown:"

"Now, since you are with "Scooby and the gang," out there, I do have a question to put to you. Imagine if Robert shot Rhaegar, were they on horses, or were they on foot?"

"Can you glean if Robert was felled by Rhaegar knocking him off his horse,(remember Neds words about Robert taking a blow from Rhaegar), and if Rhaegar dismounted to help him can you tell by the text how the blow happened? :stunned:"

"I know that Rhaegar was not the warrior that Robert was, but I don't know that Rhaegar died that easy."

"That Ser is your homework. :D"

"Really love the detail here, and completely agree on the parallels, even with Daena and Arya. (I can't remember, but what was Daenas weapon of choice)?

Did Robert play dirty and take a cheap shot in the process?"

Homework for R+L=J

By Ser Creighton Ntchwaidumela

Well the thing is the closest Parallel I can get to Elia and Rhaegar is a Prince of Dorne and Ashara. It's the only other place as JStar points out that you can get a Prince. Though you could say not a prince and I would expect this person would then have to be from the North. However Selmy seems in place of Robert here, bitter and on the losing end. A Stormlord who loves the Targs though. Not a king a King Guard. So it comes down to perspective.

Hmmm a man shot on a horse? Well I would prefer to stick with the actual weapons.

A long sword is not designed to cut through plate mail. Rhaegars weapon of choice is a long sword. It is used to penetrate gaps in the armor. The possible wound to Robert would probably lack the kenetic energy to displace the rider.

Robert is using a Warhammer/Handgun?

A load yielding a ''mere'' 500 ft lbs let's say .. think on this (imagination needed here) ..... and I am too damn lazy right now to do all the math ....

Swing an 8lb sledge hammer, as if perhaps to strike a post ... or to break a stone. Now let's say that a good swing accelerates said sledge hammer to 20 ft/sec ... that would mean an impact energy available of 50 ft/lbs ... and it doesn't take much to imagine the result of being on the receiving end.!! Roberts hammer was probably heavier but that is what I am going with.

Furthermore ........ that energy, if the hammer hits square ... is spread over let's say 9 sq inches ( 3 x 3 face probably?). Well, force = pressure/area ... so pressure will be quite distributed..... but if that same weight hammer was a spike ... imagine then the concentration of force at the point. Huge increase in penetration, as against wider area 'crush'.

Now to contrast .... taking the ''humble'' 500 ft lbs (easy figure) in, say, a 230 gr .45 acp bullet .. that has a cross sectional area of just 0.159 sq inches ... apply that 500 ft lbs to that small CSA and .. you can see how drastically penetration increases, because the impact area is now pretty small.

In both cases not not all evergy will be realized. I am not doing all the math on this, there is no way I am doing all the math on this, to many variables, like horses transfering energy to the rider via moment. I have no bodies so I can't calculate actual penetration or angle of impact. And I am not going to reconstruct the scene, I left my horse in Tenn and nobody will let me make a human size impact gel dummy to put on another horse in armor, because life is not fair. I said we could use Shaggy (Mike O) instead of the dummy, but apperantly the union has some sort of rules about things like this. Whatever it's for science, well really it's for a fantasy book series, but that's almost the same.

Time to go outside the box.

Now I must admit I have tried to recontruct the scene before. My first problem is I am to small to play Robert and nobody would let me hit them with my hammer.

So eventually I found myself switching rolls, and I volunteered to be the hammy reather than the hammer. Now I needed a 6.4 to 6.6 260 pounds of muscle dance partner with some experince hitting things with ancient weapons and the like. So I turned my attention to Hercules Dwayne the Rock Johnson. Hhehehe Rock Johnson. So when I used my resources to gain his cell phone number and call him, he seemed a bit put off at first.

Ser Creighton: Hi is this the rock?

The Rock: Who in the blue hell are you?

Ser Creighton: This is Ser Creighton from a forum of ice and fire

The Rock: Who?

Ser Creighton: It's Ser Creig...

The Rock: It's doesn't matter what your name is! Know your role and shut your mouth. The Rock got no time to be running around hitting every roody poo candy ass that does not under stand the basic mathmatical principals that occured on the trident. The sledge hammer weighs 16 pounds not 8. So it has a mass of m=W/32=16/32=0.5 slugs. Now if I apply the formula for Kinetic Energy which is K.E.=(mv^2)/2. This now gives me the total energy that the sledge hammer had at impact.

Ser Creighton: So you going to hit me or not.

The Rock: No the Rock is not going ot hit you, the Rock don't lay the smack down on the mentaly less fortunate.

Ser Creighton: Hey! But I am on tem bring it, you have to help, now bring it.

The Rock: I already broughted and you are to slow to figure it out "click"

Ser Creighton: Asshole, the fast and the furious sucks. Guess I need to find a more unorthodoxed solution, "Lightbulb"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fgMVMaK1NnY

In conclusion, sometimes when people are on horses and get hit by things, they fall off.

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1.No you don't get to be the OP and first post, redact the shinny.

2.In conclusion, sometimes when people are on horses and get hit by things, they fall off.

1. LIES. I earned that shiny.

2. Have you informed the universe of this? This changes everything

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1. LIES. I earned that shiny.

2. Have you informed the universe of this? This changes everything

1. Well you did do all the Op work, shinny reinstated but watch your step out there BQ. You can't just go tossing out shinnys left and right. Pretty soon you get escalation, next thing you know people are firing off preemptive shinny' and then you got world war shinny. Do you want that on your head?

2. I'll inform Stephen Hawking as soon as I get a chance.

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1. Well you did do all the Op work, shinny reinstated but watch your step out there BQ. You can't just go tossing out shinnys left and right. Pretty soon you get escalation, next thing you know people are firing off preemptive shinny' and then you got world war shinny. Do you want that on your head?

2. I'll inform Stephen Hawking as soon as I get a chance.

I concur. Just to give you an idea of the implications, I've declared a blood feud against you for that one time your "shiny!" post ninja'd my "First!" post in an OP you created. Hell hath no fury like a board commenter scorned.

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@ Ser Creighton,

You made some interesting points in your response to Alia about the inverse parallels between Lyanna and Ashara.

House Dayne White on Purple. And Houuse Stark Grey on White. Two of the most important colors in the series. Why? Well to get purple you mix Red and Blue and to get Grey you mix black and white. You should be more than familier with these four colors in this series. Why? Not just the use of Black and White doors and Ice and Fire. But think Shade of the evening trees and Weirwood trees, complete inverse parallels of eachother. Essos and Westeros, Black and blue, white and red.

I like this bit. I've always wondered about the violet eyes of the Targaryens. If there's something to the fact that red + blue = violet, re: eye color. And then silver, aka - shiny grey, being a mixture of black and white almost reaffirms my suspicions. Even though I haven't fully formulated them.

Ashara Dayne may have had a daughter who died.

Lyanna Stark may have had a son who lived.

Do you see how perfect that inversion is? Not just not male and female, but in once the mother dies and in the other the child dies.

Yes!

In Heresy someone suggested that Lyanna might have been dead when she gave birth to Jon. If that is so, the inverse parallel fits even better: dead woman gives birth to live boy; live woman gives birth to dead girl. Now, this idea is a bit crackpot, but sort of interesting. I had briefly considered this possibility a while back based on the dead wolf bitch whelping her pups, but I couldn't find anything else to support it so I didn't give it any further thought. But someone proposed an alternative take on a familiar line: “Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.” - AGoT, Eddard I.

The new idea was that it was not the rose petals that were dead and black, but rather Lyanna's hands. As if she had been Other'd or wighted. I'm not sure who first came up with the idea, but credit there. Before you dismiss this idea, remember this line: “Jafer’s right wrist ended in the ruin of torn flesh and splintered bone left by Ghost’s jaws. His right hand was floating in a jar of vinegar back in Maester Aemon’s tower. His left hand, still at the end of his arm, was as black as his cloak.” - AGoT, Jon VII. And of course there is Coldhands, who seems to be a sentient wight, minus the blue eyes. And there is another curious detail from the ToJ in Ned's tenth chapter: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." The last part seems like a clear reference to the Others or wights, no? Except, how did Ned know that? When Maester Luwin tells Bran about Symeon Star-Eyes, who supposedly replaced his own blind eyes with star sapphires, it apparently never occurs to Luwin that he could have been an Other or wight. But, later in the same chapter that Othor and Jaffar are discovered, Jon describes Jaffar's eyes as sapphire-like: “Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.” In other words, "blue as the eyes of the death" seems like an odd thing for Ned to think to himself. What is he basing that on?

As I said, it's all a bit crackpot, but a potentially interesting twist.

Regarding the possible inverse to Prince Lewyn as it relates to Lyanna and Ashara, I will just point out that KG wear white and Rhaegar famously wore black armor at HH and the Trident.

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@ Ser Creighton,

You made some interesting points in your response to Alia about the inverse parallels between Lyanna and Ashara.

I like this bit. I've always wondered about the violet eyes of the Targaryens. If there's something to the fact that red + blue = violet, re: eye color. And then silver, aka - shiny grey, being a mixture of black and white almost reaffirms my suspicions. Even though I haven't fully formulated them.

Yes!

In Heresy someone suggested that Lyanna might have been dead when she gave birth to Jon. If that is so, the inverse parallel fits even better: dead woman gives birth to live boy; live woman gives birth to dead girl. Now, this idea is a bit crackpot, but sort of interesting. I had briefly considered this possibility a while back based on the dead wolf bitch whelping her pups, but I couldn't find anything else to support it so I didn't give it any further thought. But someone proposed an alternative take on a familiar line: “Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.” - AGoT, Eddard I.

The new idea was that it was not the rose petals that were dead and black, but rather Lyanna's hands. As if she had been Other'd or wighted. I'm not sure who first came up with the idea, but credit there. Before you dismiss this idea, remember this line: “Jafer’s right wrist ended in the ruin of torn flesh and splintered bone left by Ghost’s jaws. His right hand was floating in a jar of vinegar back in Maester Aemon’s tower. His left hand, still at the end of his arm, was as black as his cloak.” - AGoT, Jon VII. And of course there is Coldhands, who seems to be a sentient wight, minus the blue eyes. And there is another curious detail from the ToJ in Ned's tenth chapter: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." The last part seems like a clear reference to the Others or wights, no? Except, how did Ned know that? When Maester Luwin tells Bran about Symeon Star-Eyes, who supposedly replaced his own blind eyes with star sapphires, it apparently never occurs to Luwin that he could have been an Other or wight. But, later in the same chapter that Othor and Jaffar are discovered, Jon describes Jaffar's eyes as sapphire-like: “Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.” In other words, "blue as the eyes of the death" seems like an odd thing for Ned to think to himself. What is he basing that on?

As I said, it's all a bit crackpot, but a potentially interesting twist.

Regarding the possible inverse to Prince Lewyn as it relates to Lyanna and Ashara, I will just point out that KG wear white and Rhaegar famously wore black armor at HH and the Trident.

I'm more inclined to think GRRM had a dangling modifier problem when he wrote AGOT :lol: , but it is a new (at least to me) and interesting theory.

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I'm more inclined to think GRRM had a dangling modifier problem when he wrote AGOT :lol: , but it is a new (at least to me) and interesting theory.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's much more likely she was alive when she gave birth, but it's an interesting idea. Of course, in order for this to be true, there are all kinds of issues that would need to be addressed. When did she die, how did she come back to 'life'? - are just the first ones that come to mind.

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There really isn't a link beyond the various dictionarys, but here is what I have.

Middle to Old English:

Fellan, Fiellan, Fell/Fall:

"To cause to fall, strike down, cut down, thrown down."

"Fall/Fell upon" Specifically to attack.

" The gang fell upon their rivals with knives and chains."

If Rhaegar just came across Lyanna, comprabable venacular like "happened upon," or "chanced upon," would be used if this was the case.

Urban dictionary: "He was taking a stroll through the park when he happened upon this girl."

In Don Quixote after Lucinda fainted on her wedding day to Don Fernando, he found a letter that she intended to take her life after the wedding:

"He could not help but feel mocked and belittled, enraged, he fell upon her, and endeavored to stab her.....'' p. 284

They have specific meanings and use, particularly as Martin uses the type of english/vernacular spoken at this time. As I said, it took me another reading to catch it because it always bothered me, so I had to dust off my English degree and figure out why the wording didn't feel right.

.Thank you. I must admit that I am a bit confused now because, while GRRM's wording in TWOIAF does sound archaic, the extracts I read didn't seem that distanced from modern English use (no more than e.g. Silmarillion). Could you provide some examples that the use of vocabulary in TWOIAF goes back to meanings that differ from contemporary, or is there only this specific example?

Speaking of archaic use, my search of "fall upon" brought it up as a synonym for "befall", so again, the element of chance meeting. It rather seems to me that we have another example of "looked to" on our hands - too little context to establish what the hell GRRM meant here. While it is possible that "fall upon" here may be used in the meaning vilifying Rhaegar, the reading "chanced upon" also offers an intriguing possibility - the fact that it may have been no chance at all but an agreed on meeting.

On Rhaegar and Elia, no, no matter what he might have felt for Lyanna, I think he was fond of Elia and certainly loved his children, It was said he doted on Rhaenys, and expected his faimly to be protected, so if we find out that Lyanna turned his head that much, I would be surprised, (though some of Jaimes dreaming could be a product of his guilt, or memories he'd shut out).

That's so cute... and it puts to rest all that "Rhaegar never cared for his family" crap.

Also, it breaks my heart some more at the thought of Rhaenys hiding under his bed.

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@ Ser Creighton,

You made some interesting points in your response to Alia about the inverse parallels between Lyanna and Ashara.

I like this bit. I've always wondered about the violet eyes of the Targaryens. If there's something to the fact that red + blue = violet, re: eye color. And then silver, aka - shiny grey, being a mixture of black and white almost reaffirms my suspicions. Even though I haven't fully formulated them.

Yes!

In Heresy someone suggested that Lyanna might have been dead when she gave birth to Jon. If that is so, the inverse parallel fits even better: dead woman gives birth to live boy; live woman gives birth to dead girl. Now, this idea is a bit crackpot, but sort of interesting. I had briefly considered this possibility a while back based on the dead wolf bitch whelping her pups, but I couldn't find anything else to support it so I didn't give it any further thought. But someone proposed an alternative take on a familiar line: “Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.” - AGoT, Eddard I.

The new idea was that it was not the rose petals that were dead and black, but rather Lyanna's hands. As if she had been Other'd or wighted. I'm not sure who first came up with the idea, but credit there. Before you dismiss this idea, remember this line: “Jafer’s right wrist ended in the ruin of torn flesh and splintered bone left by Ghost’s jaws. His right hand was floating in a jar of vinegar back in Maester Aemon’s tower. His left hand, still at the end of his arm, was as black as his cloak.” - AGoT, Jon VII. And of course there is Coldhands, who seems to be a sentient wight, minus the blue eyes. And there is another curious detail from the ToJ in Ned's tenth chapter: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." The last part seems like a clear reference to the Others or wights, no? Except, how did Ned know that? When Maester Luwin tells Bran about Symeon Star-Eyes, who supposedly replaced his own blind eyes with star sapphires, it apparently never occurs to Luwin that he could have been an Other or wight. But, later in the same chapter that Othor and Jaffar are discovered, Jon describes Jaffar's eyes as sapphire-like: “Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.” In other words, "blue as the eyes of the death" seems like an odd thing for Ned to think to himself. What is he basing that on?

As I said, it's all a bit crackpot, but a potentially interesting twist.

Regarding the possible inverse to Prince Lewyn as it relates to Lyanna and Ashara, I will just point out that KG wear white and Rhaegar famously wore black armor at HH and the Trident.

I am going to get to this, ummmm you know some of the stuff I have been working on and have seen some glimpses of it. It's a joint project that we feel is pretty close and we have been working on it for like a year. Some of what you are asking is in there. But there are like 100 pages of notes to sift through. So just looking at that real quick, don't forget layers. You have the literal, the symbolic, themes, etc... and that is all in there. Rather than looking at one or the other as the answer look at all of them and how they relate. What is Martin creating? There is foreshadowing, that's obivous, there is black and blue, the death of a mother and the birth of a child, blood. Blue Eye's of death? This I want to address, because you wrote that theory on the trident and your work with colors. I worte about this on the forum earlier but no response. One other thing is very important here, it's a fevre dream. Have you read that book? Anyone who is a fan of this series needs to read that book, it will give you a lot of insight into the Others and Wights, you read that and suddenly Dany and the Slavers and Jon and the Others make a lot of sense.

If you take Asshai and you take the lands of always winter and realize it's an inverse it adds some structure to what is going on. It's two hearts I think are black and white and fell to the earth. A moon impact a black one and white one. Shadow heart in Asshai is the black one, it's also the bloodstone. That Oily stone, the wall, the Valyrian black stone not the same but probably all produced by magic. So we know the Bloodstone fell to earth in Essos, there was another falling star though in Westeros, the White Star, and Dawn was forged from it. That is actually the proof it exists. At the very begining that is where I have black and white.

So in the series what is Black? Death, the night, shadows and blood. That is what is in the hands of the wights, frozen dried blood. Also Ebony and it's also just a color. But when certain things all appear in one scene you get an image.

Black and blue? House Baratheon. Ignore the sigil you got black hair and blue eyes. What happened when Ned woke up from those dead blue eyes? More Foreshadowing, Robert was there and so was the moon if I am not mistaken. I am doing this off memory so forgive me if it's a bit off.

Now I don't think Lyanna became a Wight, but Martin is clearly using imagery and foreshadowing. The story of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the Rebellion, Robert and Ned and Jon, it's not just about the past it's about the future. It's telling you what is coming. A dragon who fought a blue eyed king on the trident at the red fork over the blue rose, and the sun and the moon took the field with them on opposing sides. The blue eyed king led an army from the north as well.

Now I have my interpretaion of events, but I do not like pressing that on people. So interpret how you like.

Now of course Rhaegar and it does not matter what anyone thinks happens with Lyanna because this is only symbolism. It's not about there personal stories and lives and who they loved and didn't love. It's just about literary devices, that is all I am doing.

So a blue eyed king named Robert (A first son mind you) who is also connected to Storms led an army from the north and took the field with the moon (Arryn)

His opposition was a Dragon red and black named Rhaegar and he took the field with an army from the south and the sun (Martell)

Now Rhaegar had thought he was the Prince and Dragons all that and it seems he thought the Others were coming. But he never faced them, he faced Robert. It's not what he invisioned and they fought over the blue rose.

Trident has 3 forks and 3 of course is a theme in the books along with history repeating and inversing.

So along comes the inverse. This won't be right either but I will show it too.

Along comes the second son.

Stannis a blue eyed kind currently in the North trying to gain Northern support, an army from the north and he is a second son. The Green fork always talking about the Usurper. What have you always said about the color green?

Now this blue eyed king has different symbolism to his brother. The Burning heart, the lord of light, and he seems from a symbolic stand point very much like and inverse of the Knight King, Mel being an inverse of the Night Queen.

There is a new Dragon in Westeros, down south by Dorne. The mummers Dragon who has no Dragons. You even have Greyscale shared between these two.

Now Varys seems to have his little birds backing Aegon. Will we find a little bird backing Stannis?

History will probably repeat, and you will get the battle of the Green fork. Will there be a rose, maybe someome from House Tyrell, Marg, or even Loras who has had some blue rose symbolism. Though he is guy not a woman but of course the symbolism has inverted. Be intresting to see if the Tyrells flip or if all three fight. Thing is Loras is not the blue rose is he?

So this happens and it's not really right. It's not the true battle of ice and fire.

Now come the players, looks like the Dragon has three heads.

Dany the third Child a dragon a real dragon and her dragons.

Then you have the Night King, a blue eyed king. He leads an army of thralls more than likely from the north and perhaps the Vale. At least that is probably where he gets his bodies.

Who do you think is going to be in the middle of all this? What's missing? The Blue rose, just like his mum. Not you average blue rose is he? Don't know what he is but he will be in the middle of it that is clear enough.

Why do all this three times? I am not sure but in the end 3 will invert to one. I think whatever happened with Azor and the Last hero sort of worked. In that this is not the first long night, or the second long night, it's the third. Or at least it will be. The First one I think occured with Azor, the second one is either the last hero or the Knight King or those two are one in the same. Or perhaps whatever happened with the Night King was like a fake sort of long night. It looked sort of right but wasn't. This is the third, it sort of trying to fix whatever happened when the world broke.

That's why you have Martin showing you these three things. Or at least I think that is what he will show. The Red fork, the Green and the Blue.

Anyway if has to guess at the symbolism with Ned is that it is relating the past to the future. And Fevre dreams are special, they got that hint of magic or prophecy.

As for Lewyn and Rhaegars armor, Black and white they were.

Now with reguards to Star eyes, yes it seems he was Wight or perhaps an Other. See what I point out about Asshai and the Land of Always winter. If you can make things like Red Priests and Shadowbinders who can do magic and have smoking blood, maybe just maybe you can do it with ice as well. Now if you read Fevre dreams you will find out that Martin used Vampire Masters and there thralls to mirror pre civil war slavery. Which means we may find out sometihng about the Thralls that make them more sympathetic. Probably why we have Coldhands and why there are hints about these sort of Others at the wall or maybe Proto Others. People who were working with Ice magic, though the Others may be closer to Dragons, though intelligent. We kind of see that babies are used to possibly make them and they are a sort of inverse of how Dragon eggs may be hatched. Don't have enough info though.

Just a guess but it all seems to go back to the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor. Everyone is from the east, that is all where it got going for man in this world. The first men and the Valyrians, and the Starks and the Targs. They are as different as the son and the moon, but chances are the same blood flows through their veins. Do you know what the other name for Bloodstone is? Heliotrope, it's greek it means sun turning.

I know that this is really rough and I didn't get into quotes, but that is a lot of work and you should get the general idea.

I am guessing that if it comes down to picking between the Knight King and Little Queen Hot Pocket, Jon probably goes with Hot pocket. Though part of me suspects the Night Queen is floating around out there. The Mother of the Others.

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I'm going for a hot pocket right now.



Ohh ... you don't mean the kind I put in the microwave?




Seriously, great stuff.

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.Thank you. I must admit that I am a bit confused now because, while GRRM's wording in TWOIAF does sound archaic, the extracts I read didn't seem that distanced from modern English use (no more than e.g. Silmarillion). Could you provide some examples that the use of vocabulary in TWOIAF goes back to meanings that differ from contemporary, or is there only this specific example?

Speaking of archaic use, my search of "fall upon" brought it up as a synonym for "befall", so again, the element of chance meeting. It rather seems to me that we have another example of "looked to" on our hands - too little context to establish what the hell GRRM meant here. While it is possible that "fall upon" here may be used in the meaning vilifying Rhaegar, the reading "chanced upon" also offers an intriguing possibility - the fact that it may have been no chance at all but an agreed on meeting.

That's so cute... and it puts to rest all that "Rhaegar never cared for his family" crap.

Also, it breaks my heart some more at the thought of Rhaenys hiding under his bed.

Now that's a project, lol. I have my homework to do, but I will see what I can compile.

To start, here is the Lords Prayer in Anglo Saxon.

I heard this first from the Tudor files, and there were only a few words I recognized.

The Lord's Prayer (Fæder ure) in Anglo Saxon (Old English): http://youtu.be/UQVyol7N1Jo

(Note the original seven kingdoms prior to the Norman invasion) .

Edit:

Now, that I'm fully awake, I can give you a more thoughtful response.

In terms of the style, vernacular and use of expression of the times, Martin does do this as much as he can, though not to the extremes of the above example, or as extreme as true fourteenth century English would sound, because as a person whose language is "English," I wouldn't be able to understand it, nor the vast majority of his audience.

And American English is now interspersed with pop culture slang, text-speak acronyms, as well as with other languages from around the world.

In some parts of the country, "Spanish" is spoken as much as "English," so the language continues to evolve.

Language then was THE entertainment, and the spoken word was lavish, expansive and expressive, hence Martins use of a term like "fell upon."

Martin as a native speaker of english knows the difference between terms like "happened upon," "chanced upon" as opposed to "fell upon" which has an entirely different connotation, therefore he writes what he means, and is very "tricksy" with his verbage because he is deliberate.

I also completely agree that Martin uses that loaded vernacular in the spirit if the "unreliable narrator," as history is written by the victors, so Martin is making a point.

But he also makes another point, and here is the note of caution; the grains of truth still germinate beneath, and in dealing with, to use a more modern term, propaganda, you have actively look for the truth yourself.

Martin also says he does not writes black and white characters, characters wearing "white hats," or "black hats." They're all grey. Jon, as he has stated, comes as close to any of his characters to the classic hero.

Its no secret that I play devils advocate for Lyanna as many do the same for Rhaegar. And while she and Arya are my favorites, I'm still prepared for Martins truth, because as an English major myself, the dicey thing with reading comprehension is if you approach it with a bias, it will taint what you read, so I try to remain objective.

Having said that, I'm not anti Rhaegar, but I am cautious with his character especially.

As I said, even if he didn't love Elia, and loved someone else, that doesn't make him bad. The Martells of all families knew what bed they were getting into when they laid down with the Targaryens in pursuit of their own ambitions because its well documented. They will even lay with the Lannisters after all that has happened.

Finally, today, many people jokingly refer to Shakespeare as a "Tudor propagandist," and to some degree, its true because he wrote for the Tudor dynasty. And while Richard III did not stay in his mothers womb for two years, have a tail or hunchback, did actually love his brother Edward, was quite respected and might have made a better king than any of them, current evidence does hold him responsible for the murders of the princes in the tower, his nephews, hence those grains of truth...

Jon, as GRRM's offering of the "classic hero" come from the union of two flawed individuals, is consistent with his cautionary view of whats on the surface vs. what lies beneath and concepts of beauty vs. the beast, good and bad.

What I hope from Martin is that he honors the tradition of storytelling, and tell a good tale, no matter the outcome of my favorite character.

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In Heresy someone suggested that Lyanna might have been dead when she gave birth to Jon. If that is so, the inverse parallel fits even better: dead woman gives birth to live boy; live woman gives birth to dead girl. Now, this idea is a bit crackpot, but sort of interesting. I had briefly considered this possibility a while back based on the dead wolf bitch whelping her pups, but I couldn't find anything else to support it so I didn't give it any further thought. But someone proposed an alternative take on a familiar line: “Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.” - AGoT, Eddard I.

The new idea was that it was not the rose petals that were dead and black, but rather Lyanna's hands. As if she had been Other'd or wighted. I'm not sure who first came up with the idea, but credit there.

Cheers on both counts

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