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R+L =J v.135


BearQueen87

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So the equally scary Stark bloodline coming into play here? Is that the gist?

You know, one of the functions of iron is to bind spirits, or hold them in place, and now, one by one, the iron swords have been taken from the crypts in WF.

From the Wiki:

"The crypt's ironwood door, which is located in the oldest section of Winterfell near the First Keep,[4] is old and heavy.[5] The chilly and dark crypt is accessible by narrow and winding spiral stone steps which lead to multiple levels. One floor contains a long line of granite pillars, two by two, between which are entombed the dead of House Stark. The likenesses of Lords of Winterfell are carved into the stone, some shaggy, some clean-shaven.[6] Large stone direwolves curl at their feet. According to tradition, the iron longswords across each lord's lap keep vengeful spirits within the crypt. It has a vaulted ceiling.[1]

The cavernous vault is larger than Winterfell itself, with the older kings buried in deeper and darker levels.[6] The lowest level is said to be partly collapsed.[4] The most recent tombs within the crypts are those of Lord Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna Stark. The tombs further back, empty and unsealed, are saved for future members of House Stark.[1]

According to tradition the statues are only made for kings and lords, but Lord Eddard Stark had statues made of Brandon and Lyanna as exceptions.[6] There is also a statue for Artos the Implacable, the younger brother of Lord Willam Stark.[7]"

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So the equally scary Stark bloodline coming into play here? Is that the gist?

You know, one of the functions of iron is to bind spirits, or hold them in place, and now, one by one, the iron swords have been taken from the crypts in WF.

Bare swords laid on the knee are also a significant symbol of denying Guest Right, and is a symbol (and a theme) in the novels which is far more prevalent that this gesture being used to keep spirits at bay. I don't believe this is a coincidence.

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Bare swords laid on the knee are also a significant symbol of denying Guest Right, and is a symbol (and a theme) in the novels which is far more prevalent that this gesture being used to keep spirits at bay. I don't believe this is a coincidence.

Thats interesting, I didn't know that.

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Bare swords laid on the knee are also a significant symbol of denying Guest Right, and is a symbol (and a theme) in the novels which is far more prevalent that this gesture being used to keep spirits at bay. I don't believe this is a coincidence.

The kings and lords in the Winterfell crypts do not, in fact, have blank swords laid across their knees, it is across their lap. There are a few cms/inches in between :)

Here the dead:

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not.

AGoT 4 Eddard I

With Robb, it was across his knees:

"Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.

AGoT 24 Bran IV mid-chapter

But denying guestright is having the steel bared, as we have just read, not the matter where the steel is put.

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The kings and lords in the Winterfell crypts do not, in fact, have blank swords laid across their knees, it is across their lap. There are a few cms/inches in between :)

Here the dead:

AGoT 4 Eddard I

With Robb, it was across his knees:

AGoT 24 Bran IV mid-chapter

But denying guestright is having the steel bared, as we have just read, not the matter where the steel is put.

They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard

ASOS 9 Bran

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They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard

ASOS 9 Bran

oh, overlooked that one.

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np, just a small matter of semantics, across the lap and across the knees mean one and the same in the end. A lord would after all be seated when receiving visitors.

As I learned, in case the visitors were of lower rank. Were they of higher rank, he would have to get up and run towards them. Were they of equal rank, he'd get up until they approach, and sit down at the same time with them... to perfect courtesies.

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As I learned, in case the visitors were of lower rank. Were they of higher rank, he would have to get up and run towards them. Were they of equal rank, he'd get up until they approach, and sit down at the same time with them... to perfect courtesies.

Right, it would be the height of disrespect to greet a visiting King while seated. But we only have one example of that to my memory (Robert visiting Winterfell).

Robb stays seated when greeting Tyrion. No courtesies there, of course.

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They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard

ASOS 9 Bran

Oh that's cool, so did Rickard have it across the knees like Robb because they were both tricked into a situation where they were denied guest right and 'laws' were broken? Like Aerys said his champion was fire, which was clearly cheating.

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Oh that's cool, so did Rickard have it across the knees like Robb because they were both tricked into a situation where they were denied guest right and 'laws' were broken? Like Aerys said his champion was fire, which was clearly cheating.

I think they all have them across their knees to say "Others (and human outsiders) not welcome here."

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So 'knees' and 'lap' are essentially the same thing?



By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not.




They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard


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Oh that's cool, so did Rickard have it across the knees like Robb because they were both tricked into a situation where they were denied guest right and 'laws' were broken? Like Aerys said his champion was fire, which was clearly cheating.

Well I think the whole sacred Guest Right law started with those Kings of Winter. It seems they've been doing the same thing in the crypts for 10,000ish years, and (probably most of) the crypts were there before Winterfell was (it's also longer than Winterfell, according to Bran). I can't imagine why the Starks would excavate such a vast network of tunnels from scratch.

We also get a "denial of guest right" picture of Ned often sitting at the "bottomless" pool beneath the Heart Tree, cleaning Ice while it's laid bare across his knees, and where once a Stark ancestor emerged, heavily pregnant, begging for a son to avenge her.

Bran mentions Gorne in the Cave of the three-eyed dragon. Leaf tells us the Black River leads to a vast underground sea, and some of the tunnels lead to the very center of the earth.

Those old Kings of Winter had some unwelcome visitors - in my opinion.

Yes of course Ygritte. Others.

Which puts the more recent history of the Starks into perspective. Gorne found no Black Gate, likely the Others would not as well.

And all the swords are gone now.

ETA

Chapter One AGOT. We get the Others siring half-human children, we get the "born with the dead" chat, plenty of other imagery. Then we get this:

"Ice had formed in its shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman's perfume."

Blood and roses, anyone?

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So 'knees' and 'lap' are essentially the same thing?

I would say so. If I'm sitting and have a child sitting on my knee, I'd say they were sitting in my lap. I say I had my rifle across my lap while I'm sitting in a stand/blind while hunting, with it actually laying on my knees. I guess it's not technically true, but it's what is meant.

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I would say so. If I'm sitting and have a child sitting on my knee, I'd say they were sitting in my lap. I say I had my rifle across my lap while I'm sitting in a stand/blind while hunting, with it actually laying on my knees. I guess it's not technically true, but it's what is meant.

I agree. I think the two can be and are used interchangeably in this context. Perhaps put another way, when one is seated with their knees bent at approximately 90 degrees with feet resting on the floor, where exactly does their "lap" end and their "knees" begin?

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I agree. I think the two can be and are used interchangeably in this context. Perhaps put another way, when one is seated with their knees bent at approximately 90 degrees with feet resting on the floor, where exactly does their "lap" end and their "knees" begin?

Perhaps the lap ends at the knee cap? But sarcasm put aside, of course in colloquial speech people refer to someone being "bounced on their knee" when clearly they really mean their lap (try actually bouncing a child just on the knee -- it does not really work very well). So depending on the context, lap and knee can mean the same thing.

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Perhaps the lap ends at the knee cap? But sarcasm put aside, of course in colloquial speech people refer to someone being "bounced on their knee" when clearly they really mean their lap (try actually bouncing a child just on the knee -- it does not really work very well). So depending on the context, lap and knee can mean the same thing.

Ummm...I bounce my kids on my knee all the time. It's never used to mean anything BUT the knee, because it's not an idiom in such terms. I crook my leg, put them on top and bounce it up and down. Sometimes I suddenly straighten my leg to let them slide down. No, it's not the healthiest thing you can do with your leg, but having kids is never 'healthy' for one's body in the first place.

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