JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's lap. Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's knees. See the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's lap.Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's knees.See the difference?In that context, yes, it makes a difference. However, a sword in one's lap/on one's knees doesn't really present a different image. Maybe, if you're asking me to distinguish, a couple inches one way, but nothing of substance. It's kind of like the argument that "closer to 8-9 months than a year" means Dany can be Jon's twin, because 8/9 is closer to 0 than 12. While technically true, it flies in the face of what that phrase means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 In that context, yes, it makes a difference. However, a sword in one's lap/on one's knees doesn't really present a different image. Maybe, if you're asking me to distinguish, a couple inches one way, but nothing of substance. It's kind of like the argument that "closer to 8-9 months than a year" means Dany can be Jon's twin, because 8/9 is closer to 0 than 12. While technically true, it flies in the face of what that phrase means. how is 8/9 closer to 0 than 12?? 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 it's 8 spaces to zero while only three to 12... Nevertheless, I meant to say that lap is a bit more... sexual. I've heard people being given lapdances, not kneedances. And a mom sits her baby on her lap to make them feel protected, close to the uterus, while the knees is for playing. Put your head on someone's lap makes you closer to their crotch than put it on their knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 how is 8/9 closer to 0 than 12??0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12it's 8 spaces to zero while only three to 12...Nevertheless, I meant to say that lap is a bit more... sexual. I've heard people being given lapdances, not kneedances. And a mom sits her baby on her lap to make them feel protected, close to the uterus, while the knees is for playing. Put your head on someone's lap makes you closer to their crotch than put it on their knees.My bad, I worded that wrongly. They (not me) argue that Martin is really arguing that 0 is "closer to 8/9 months" than to 1 year. So, it's a gap of 8/9 as opposed to 12. And, while they are technically correct, that is not what the words Martin said mean in any situation when used together. I just think it's really nitpicky to try and base anything off of whether a sword was lying across someone's lap or someone's knee, because in common reference, they are really interchangeable (especially if it's on the knee), and it would make no difference either way. The key, as someone mentioned, was the bare steel. Not where it was located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 My bad, I worded that wrongly. They (not me) argue that Martin is really arguing that 0 is "closer to 8/9 months" than to 1 year. So, it's a gap of 8/9 as opposed to 12. And, while they are technically correct, that is not what the words Martin said mean in any situation when used together Maths and literature can't even, tbh. Can't even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Speaking of archaic use, my search of "fall upon" brought it up as a synonym for "befall", so again, the element of chance meeting. It rather seems to me that we have another example of "looked to" on our hands - too little context to establish what the hell GRRM meant here. While it is possible that "fall upon" here may be used in the meaning vilifying Rhaegar, the reading "chanced upon" also offers an intriguing possibility - the fact that it may have been no chance at all but an agreed on meeting. "Fell upon" can mean a chance discovery, for example "I fell upon the solution while reading an apparently quite unrelated text." The implication being that something accidental (a fall) has taken place, leading to that discovery. However, it would be very odd to apply that to an accidental meeting with a person. The alternative meaning is to attack, with the implication of savagery. "The Assyrians fell upon the Judeans like a wolf on the fold." It seems pretty certain to me that this was the wording intended, and that it's meant to show the text casting Rhaegar in a negative light. "Looked to" is a slightly different case. On it's own it could mean anything, but from context it's very clear what's intended. "She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her [...] If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" Looked to, in this case, must mean loved (looked to for love). I missed the start of this conversation so I'm not sure of the context of the doubt, but I know some people read this as being "looked to for comfort" after her dishonouring, but I don't think this makes any sense. The subject at hand is Ashara not knowing of Barristan's feelings for her, and he wonders if, had he made his feelings clear, it might have changed the course of her life. The previous line is "...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well" which makes it clear that the "dishonouring" was not something that Ashara objected to. I think the only question here is which Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 "Looked to" is a slightly different case. On it's own it could mean anything, but from context it's very clear what's intended. "She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her [...] If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" Looked to, in this case, must mean loved (looked to for love).I missed the start of this conversation so I'm not sure of the context of the doubt, but I know some people read this as being "looked to for comfort" after her dishonouring, but I don't think this makes any sense. The subject at hand is Ashara not knowing of Barristan's feelings for her, and he wonders if, had he made his feelings clear, it might have changed the course of her life. The previous line is "...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well" which makes it clear that the "dishonouring" was not something that Ashara objected to. I think the only question here is which Stark. I think this is the correct interpretation in that it's the one you're supposed to come away with. But Ser Barristan thinks of "the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal" which implies a bit of mystery, no? But by paragraph's end he name drops Stark. Maybe this is all meant to be a red herring about Jon's parentage. That is, we're supposed to read this as possibly confirming N+A=J, but we're later going to find out that it was Brandon who dishonored her. That would make sense, and that will account for the mystery element that I'm talking about. Maybe that's the answer I'm looking for. But it seems a somewhat ambiguous to me. And there is still the question of Lewyn and Ashara's secret lovers. Economy of storytelling and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 And all the swords are gone now.Really? who says? Someone just posted a comment that the oldest parts of the crypt have collapsed. It seems Valyrian steel doesnt rust away, and presumably it was a lot more common when there were still some Valyrians about. So maybe old tombs are just the place to look if you ever have an urgent need for such a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I think this is the correct interpretation in that it's the one you're supposed to come away with. But Ser Barristan thinks of "the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal" which implies a bit of mystery, no? But by paragraph's end he name drops Stark. Maybe this is all meant to be a red herring about Jon's parentage. That is, we're supposed to read this as possibly confirming N+A=J, but we're later going to find out that it was Brandon who dishonored her. That would make sense, and that will account for the mystery element that I'm talking about. Certainly it's a mystery, but I keeping the mystery up is why she looked to "Stark" rather than GRRM being specific about which Stark. I think the Stark she turned to is the Stark who dishonoured her. Why would she turn to a different Stark than the one who she was later perhaps "mad with grief" over losing, after all? Whether that turns out to be about Brandon dying or Ned marrying another woman remains to be seen. I think between Ned's reaction to mention of Ashara at Winterfell and Edric believing that Ned and Ashara had an affair, it's more likely Ned. The N+A=J red herring doesn't have to be dismissed by an "It was Brandon after all" revelation before L+R can be revealed to = J. Ultimately what Ned was up to and with who isn't relevant to Jon's parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's lap.Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's knees.See the difference? Yet knees and lap are both used for the placement of the swords of the Old Kings of Winter. I don't think GRRM himself made a distinction; instead he used the subtleties of language, per usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 This is worth a read - The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 This is worth a read - The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos. Thanks for pointing us over there. Just finished reading and yes, very much worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 "Fell upon" can mean a chance discovery, for example "I fell upon the solution while reading an apparently quite unrelated text." The implication being that something accidental (a fall) has taken place, leading to that discovery. However, it would be very odd to apply that to an accidental meeting with a person. The alternative meaning is to attack, with the implication of savagery. "The Assyrians fell upon the Judeans like a wolf on the fold." It seems pretty certain to me that this was the wording intended, and that it's meant to show the text casting Rhaegar in a negative light."Looked to" is a slightly different case. On it's own it could mean anything, but from context it's very clear what's intended. "She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her [...] If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" Looked to, in this case, must mean loved (looked to for love).I missed the start of this conversation so I'm not sure of the context of the doubt, but I know some people read this as being "looked to for comfort" after her dishonouring, but I don't think this makes any sense. The subject at hand is Ashara not knowing of Barristan's feelings for her, and he wonders if, had he made his feelings clear, it might have changed the course of her life. The previous line is "...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well" which makes it clear that the "dishonouring" was not something that Ashara objected to. I think the only question here is which Stark. :agree: But, I think its also a good indication that the most information that we have ever gotten regarding Brandon is followed many chapters later with the detailed information on Ashara.Its the same style he uses with R+L. Most of the clues are in the first book, but most of them are peppered throughout all the chapters of the books, so that is why, given the tactics, or style Martin uses for the build-up that its still not obvious to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 More on vernacular and writing in terms of the times, I came across this and thought it was interesting. Richard III and how he might have sounded, (and all of that to borrow money). :shocked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XxRzEXiQ66M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 More on vernacular and writing in terms of the times, I came across this and thought it was interesting. Richard III and how he might have sounded, (and all of that to borrow money). :shocked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XxRzEXiQ66M Did anyone else immediately remember phonetically memorizing Chaucer? Oh my god, I still can recite the whole prologue. Very cool link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Did anyone else immediately remember phonetically memorizing Chaucer? Oh my god, I still can recite the whole prologue. Very cool link. For us it was Beowulf, and then on the flipside of that, later era, "A Clockwork Orange," and I had to get through all the made-up slang. :stillsick: Here is another link going back to an earlier conversation about vernacualer, "the unreliable narrarator," history as written by the victors particularly Shakespeare and the Tudor court, and where any truth lies. Its a bit long, but its interesting. The Battle of Bosworth Field and Richard III's last stand, ending the War of the Roses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hAg1PchkG6s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's lap.Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's knees.See the difference?Might be an inverse, the blue rose that is a sword and king. Female with the blue roses, male with the sword. Gets into prophecy a bot and Jon and his dreams of the cyrpts. It's pretty much coming down to perspective. Just like the comet. A sword can be sword, a man, a comet, a dragon, and dragon can be man who happens to be a blue rose. Or it's just dick imagery. Sorry figure your mind is racing there so a preemptive penis joke.Iron may bind the Thralls as Alia points out but I am not so sure that is the case, as many of the Wights are in armor, Like Royce and Small paul. As for the Dark first men they probably mirror Valyrians, both seem to come from humble roots, I would suggest slavery drove to do certain things. We know both the Proto Valyrians and the First men had problems with slavers. If the Land of always winter and Ashaai are in fact mirrors which they appear to be. Then as the Valyrians seem connected to Asshai in some ways, I would suggest the First men are connected to the Others in the same way. And the people of Asshai the red priests may even be connected to the Others. Could just be a mirroring effect could be two haves of the same coin, one people that took seperate paths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 How on earth did I manage to miss two days of this thread..?? O_o Where it was said he doted on Rhaenys? WB?No where, as far as I could find.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Edit wrong thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Certainly it's a mystery, but I keeping the mystery up is why she looked to "Stark" rather than GRRM being specific about which Stark. I think the Stark she turned to is the Stark who dishonoured her. Why would she turn to a different Stark than the one who she was later perhaps "mad with grief" over losing, after all? Whether that turns out to be about Brandon dying or Ned marrying another woman remains to be seen. I think between Ned's reaction to mention of Ashara at Winterfell and Edric believing that Ned and Ashara had an affair, it's more likely Ned.IIRC, I think Barristan just says that Ashara threw herself from the tower for grief over her stillborn child and perhaps for the loss of the man who dishonored her. He does not state that it is a Stark only that Ashara looked to a Stark. Ashara looking to a Stark implies seeking help from a Stark. And as for Ned being the Stark that dishonored Ashara, if this is the case, don't you think it's strange that Ned never thinks of Ashara in his chapters. I mean he thinks of the past a lot and never once thinks about the woman he loved, who happened to die a tragic death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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