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A+J=T v. 3


UnmaskedLurker

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Come on, guys, Tyrion and Jon being closely related does not destroy anything.

Imagine:

'Well met, bastard uncle.'

Tyrion gave Jon Snow a curt nod in reply. 'Another royal nephew is it, then. Hopefully you don't give me as much trouble as the last one.'

lol-I love it.

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Arya and Sansa find themselves unloved in the end of AGoT when they are separated from their families, and the same is true for Bran in ACoK when the Walders start to annoy him.



Not even Quentyn Martell seems to have dreamed of dragons, and he seems to have had not the most beautiful childhood, too. And neither did Theon Greyjoy.



Nothing suggests that Barth was particular interested in dragons - that is, that he was more interested in dragons than in wyverns or firewyrms. Not to mention that his fascination for dragons may have been strictly scientific, as he hung out with the people riding them.



I don't think we can deduce a trait/behavior from Jaime's interaction with Tywin. Tywin is hurt by the way Jaime reacts to his demands, and he jumps on the chance Jaime addressing him as 'father' gives him. The man knows how to humiliate people, but while Tywin most certainly never considered Tyrion to be his true son/heir, this is not the case for Jaime. There is a double standard there.



As to how the truth is to be revealed:



First we have Barristan Selmy who may know or suspect what Tyrion actually is - it is strange/noteworthy that Tyrion never thinks of any conversation or meeting he had with Ser Barristan back in the day at Robert's court. That Barristan never thinks of Tyrion makes more sense, but it may actually be that Selmy acted weird/distant around Tyrion, and he realized that.



If we go with the 'no rape/coerced sex' scenario, Barristan could have been the KG standing guard at the door of Aerys' chambers or at the drawbridge of Maegor's Holdfast when Joanna entered the castle in that night. That's no direct proof, but it would be an important piece of the puzzle. And Barristan could have pieced the truth together by talking to his fellow White Swords, or by overhearing Aerys confessing that he was Tyrion's father (in a conversation with Rhaella, for instance).



If there was a 'Promise me, Tywin...' moment at Joanna's deathbed we have the big heart tree of Casterly Rock as witness. Bran could uncover the truth. Or there may be witnesses/people who know still living at Casterly Rock.



Clearly the whole 'past-seeing' magic has been set up to reveal to both the reader and to Bran important things from the past. This could extend to stuff like Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna - which could only be properly revealed this way - but also to other things, especially stuff about the Others. I'd not be surprised if the story of the Tower of Joy also came through Bran rather than through Howland Reed. Howland may have been there, but he would not be able to tell us the tale of what happened before he and Ned arrived there. I'd also expect some in-debt investigation of prophecy and interpretation through this - i.e. Bran overhearing the Ghost making her prophecy to Jaehaerys II, Rhaegar and Aemon interpreting stuff, Rhaegar and Elia's full conversation following Aegon's birth etc.



Thus it would only be fitting if Bran was the one searching for and identifying the three heads of the dragon. Who else could do that? Who else could acquire all the knowledge necessary to make an informed and definitive decision?


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Suzanne,

If it was a dragon Tyrion saw (if!), how is that a hint?

Could you also elaborate what hints you see in the last seven quotes in your post?

Ser C was dead on the money about the quotes I posted.

See Rhaenys_Targaryen, Some of them are not meant to be broken down in an Graduate English class, they are just loose hints, little nods from Martin, when seen separately really dont mean much, but when you look at all 200 examples next to each other, you really have to be blind not to see that there is something there about Tyrion and Dragons, something that no other characters, SAVE TARGARYENS, have. Like I said, I think the similarities between Dareon the Drunkard and Tyrion are there on purpose for us to see. "The dreams killed them everyone." "Sleep had never come easy to Tyrion, even on a featherbed", “And the nights were worse. Tyrion slept badly at the best of times, and this was far from that. Sleep meant dreams like as not, and in his dreams the Sorrows waited, and a stony king with his father’s face.”

--To me it's obvious, I hate that you can't see it :(

The 2 he left out;

The one where Tyrion says, 'I have nothing' and Illyrio says 'but we can change that'. To me that is Tyrion saying, like the 1993 outline, 'I have left the Lannisters, I have no money, I have nothing.' And Martin is replying through Illyrio, 'We can change that, I am taking you to your new family now, complete with a dragon you can ride, Isn't that what you've always wanted my little favorite character?'

And the other one is just yet another reference to Tywin treating TYrion like shit during his entire childhood, and going waaaaaaay beyond to make sure no one ever thinks of Tyrion or associates with him at all around CR. "No one with any kind of dwarfism or deformity can even come within a 20 mile radius of me!!!!!! I am not making a bigger of deal of this than I should!!!! I hate everything about this kid because my wife slept with the king and he is a bastard, and I am reminded of that every GD day that I look at him!!!!'

Can I try to answer? Not that I would speak for Suzy I just want to see if I get it right. Kinda like a guessing game.

So number 1.

Reference about having two wives. Aegon had two wives and the Targs were known to practice polygamy.

Number 2.

Not sure

Number 3.

This one is pretty intresting. Tyrion is looking at the clouds, and there are a lot of colors the last two being Saffron and Pearl. Saffaron is yellow gold and pearl is a white cream. Followed by one looked like a dragon and Dragons had been on his mind. So foreshadowing, imagery, and possibly allusion.

ETA: Of note the colors are plain spoken at first Purple, Pink, Red, but it seems he tries to disguise white or off white with pearl, and gold with Saffron. There is probably something to that. Pearl is a pale tint off white that is how it is described. Pale wings? Dragon wings are described as bat like.

Number 4.

A by-blow is a reference to an illegitimate child.

Number 5.

Possible prophetic which are associated with Targs. The dream is also intresting in the Shireen has a similar dream and both are associated with Greyscale. Shireen has Targaryen blood.

Number 6. Not sure it could be an association with mummers which is associated with Aegon and later mentioned by Moqorro, I think I don't remember his exact words.

Number 7.

As on the boat there is a reference to Pale wings, we see what may be a reference to the White dragon in the clouds, then the white cyvasse dragon. Now some thing the blood indicates Viserion will be injured, and that is possible. I often read it myself as an allusion to blood of the dragon.

2 of them I am not that sure about, but 5 of them seem pretty sound as she is only considering them loose references. I didn't find 5 of them hard to pick up on at all, and it was the first time I read them. Mumers, White and gold dragons, dragons blood, illigitamate child, prophetic dreams that is almost identical to Shireens in symbolism, in fact as a bastard Tyrions sysmbolism would be closer to Orys Baratheon. Well that's all I got, just wanted to take a shot at it.

Yes thank you! These are exactly what I was referencing :)

I am now convinced this is 100 percent true. I just watched season 3 episode 10 and when Tywinn told Tyrion he put family first by letting him live... You would think that bc he is angry that he is a dwarf but that is too petty for a reasonable guy like Tywinn. People like him would still love a crippled child of his.... He is no Bolton. He is angered by Tyrion bc he doubts he is his child due to the joanna aerys. The mad king was a petty guy so he would do what any normal petty guy does in his position. Smash the other guys wife. Simple as that. He was all about humiliating Tywinn. Tywinn still considers Tyrion a Lannister bc of Joanna who he truly loved. It is now clear that Tyrion and John are brothers..... A + L = J... I never believed in the ridiculous and random romance of rhaegar and lyanna. Aerys raped Lyanna after the crowning of the blue rose i believe and Rhaegar may have saved her or consoled her afterwards. That is why Ned does not think of rhaegar in a bad light as he thinks on whether rhaegar would have bastards running around. I dont believe rhaegar married lyanna and I believe the kings guard guarding lyanna is not guarding the princes son but the Kings. Aerys though a total asshole was the king and his child being a guy like john being the opposite is more in line with the story.

Lol perfect. Can we make that this theories motto?? :)

"Aerys smashed Tywin's wife"

Why does that quote get so much attention, while this one is ignored?

1. The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. “Father...” he began.
“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”
Tywin says such things to his sons in anger..

2. There are wildlings who have multiple wives as well... +'

1. Dude come on! It was the great Tywin Lannister's LAST WORDS. Not just some rando conversation he had at some point.. It is what Tywin and Martin chose as his last words on earth, and with them he tells Tyrion he is not his son, andHBO kept it the same. If those words mean nothing then what are we doing here? What are we wasting our time discussing? The only statements which matter are ones that fall into a theory you agree with? I am not trying to be rude, but to say that Tywin's last words have no meaning except a loose insult to Tyrion is nuts. What if with Ned's last words he had said, 'Jon Snow is no son of mine.'??? How would you feel about that?

2. Ok so what does that have to do with what we are talking about? That is a lot like the 'Euron has a red-eye so if Tyrion is a Targ then Euron is as well' argument. Like there is no theory about Euron being the son of Aerys, just like there is no theory about Tyrion being a wildling, so what relevance does that counter-argument have really? It doesn't make sense.

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Sandpiper,

Tywin was not stupid. He would have known about Aerys and Joanna's past, and the first quarrel between Aerys and Tywin during their extended stay in the West following Tytos' death may have to do with the fact that Tywin was, in fact, not willing to allow Joanna and Aerys to continue their intimate relations.......

As to Ned/Jon:

.....Ned obviously loved Jon, but he completely cut him off from his own identity and family. Jon Connington and his companions eventually told young Aegon who he actually was, and for what he was prepared for, whereas Ned Stark never found the courage or the decency to tell Jon Snow who he actually was. No one is saying that Ned should plot to make Jon king, but he deserves to know who he is and who his parents were.

But the honorable thing would have been to either allow the KG knights to keep the child - if we assume that Ned was already aware what was going on and who they were guarding in the tower besides Lyanna (if the boy was already born) - or to deliver it to his grandmother and uncle on Dragonstone, rather than making it a Stark bastard. By doing that, Ned Stark actually chose his friend Robert over his own blood. We don't yet know what Ned promised Lyanna, but I'd be surprised if she asked him to keep the boy safe and disguise him as his bastard. Considering Ned's love for Lyanna he would have done that in any case...

What comes to my mind regarding Aerys and his hand are those films of the court of Queen Elizabeth I, and her favourites. It is unclear whether she might have slept with some, but she certainly expected them to tailor their arrangements for her benefit. Perhaps not actually a good example, but there are lots of historic precedents where an absolute monarch arranges matters so he has his pick of partners, and their spouses are expected to nod politely and bow. Tywin could bow politely or rebel, and unlike Robert he did not rebel. Perhaps because he was more sensible and understood the consequences of a war would very likely only be bad.

As to ned and Jon, this is the wrong thread, but it is an instructive parallel and I think we are expected, eventually to see it as a parallel to tyrion, Tywin and Aerys. What really were Ned's choices? To leave the Targaryen heir in the hands of targaryen knights would be a betrayal of Robert. Similarly, handing him over to the people at dragonstone, if that is where they were at this point. Presumably the war was still on and they might reasonably be killed any day soon. Jon was out of the war. If his identity was known, then he was a target. If ned handed him over, he was both a target and Ned was too. If Robert and Ned fought,well, that might be the end of the rebellion even now, and the end to their families. Ned might now have been in the position he knew Robert had been in the wrong starting this war, which incidentally very well explains his withdrawal from court to winterfell. He seems to have tried to hide all knowledge of Jon from everyone, including Jon who might not be trusted with this knowledge either, as he hides Jon from the king as best he can when Robert later visits.

So ned did what Tywin did, retired from court and went home to make the best of it he could.

One aspect of the reported 'bittersweet' ending of 'fire and ice' might be the realisation that this was a war which destroyed a nation, caused by a couple of infidelities, which could possibly have just been love affairs, not even rapes. So much slaughter for.....what?

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Well Everyone:):):):):)



Looks like I was right about Tyrion seeing Drogon on the boat on his way to SB!!!!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf9zHxGMomk



I believe this is a significant moment because Drogon was drawn to Tyrion, just like the dragons were drawn to BBP. In fact, further than that, maybe Drogon came to Daznak's Pit at that moment because 2 of 3 heads of the dragon were in the vicinity on that day. BAM!



Tyrion is the first POV outside of Dany to see Drogon (or any of the dragons). If this is not significant then I don't know the meaning of the word.


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Well Everyone:) :):) :):)

Looks like I was right about Tyrion seeing Drogon on the boat on his way to SB!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf9zHxGMomk

I believe this is a significant moment because Drogon was drawn to Tyrion, just like the dragons were drawn to BBP. In fact, further than that, maybe Drogon came to Daznak's Pit at that moment because 2 of 3 heads of the dragon were in the vicinity on that day. BAM!

Tyrion is the first POV outside of Dany to see Drogon (or any of the dragons). If this is not significant then I don't know the meaning of the word.

What's on the you tube? I'm at work and not easy to watch right now.

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Black and white is more intresting than you might think. Though Tyrion is not playing the game at the time, so he does not lose the game. You don't want black and white fighting lets put it that way. And while you may look at it and go black always wins, it really depends on what phase you are in. Black is currently winning, the long night is coming. Have you looked at the overall use of black and white in the series. Weirwoods are white and red. Same symbolic colors for Ghost and Bloodraven. Red and White and the inverse of Black and Blue just like you see with the Shade of the evening trees which are direct inverse of the Weirwoods.

When you get Black and white in direct oppostion you get war, you get death. That's part of the problem. Black is now, but what happens when change comes? The White raven flies not the black. Black and white is the second phase of three phases. Very first and last chapters of crows are worth a look. When opposed probably not good but lets say you mix those two trees I mentioned, what do you get? Purple leaves and Grey wood. The eyes of the Starks and the Targs.

Now how do you know that dream he had was not prophetic? Or Shireens? You have no first hand account of either? And even if we did it might take some work to undrerstand it. You know your shaking your head saying know about this but really I think you don't want to see. There is some really weak as stuff throne up on R+L=J on a daily basis, and you just nod along. Even Martin did not shoot down the idea but you choose to try and interpret a direct quote from him as none literal. Clues are in the book. You know what he is just teasing?

I don't get it, seems like one of the stronger theories out there. What does having the white piece have to do with him not being a Targ. You said the piece loses? So what Targs have lost before, but that does not change the symbolism of the dragon and the blood. It has nothing to do with it, so why quote it, what do you think he is losing? A fan theory? I don't even understand it as a counter point one has nothing to do with the other.

By the Way connecting Yunkai as Dragons? They are the Harpy the enemy of the dragon? That symbolism is pretty clear in the books and to the world and has been for thousands of years. So saying the Harpy is the dragon would seem beyond reaching. If the white dragon is to triumph who would that dragon be? It's not the Harpy, harpies are not dragons? Not Dany, Dany rides the Winged Shadow. Who just made a deal to have the sell swords flip against the Harpy? Was that Tyrion? Against Yunkai? Pretty sure it was. You got an allusion to the Gold and White dragon in the clouds, pale bat wings on the boat, the white dragon piece. But the White Dragon is Yunkai? So in order to deny Tyrion we are saying the Harpy is now a dragon? Really? Come on, I can understand debating some of the other points, but the Harpy is the white Dragon? I can't and won't that is just to big of a reach for me. Feel free to hold onto that if you like. I can see the theory now, the White Dragon represents the Harpy, no really it does, because it can't be Tyrion it just can't, he's short.

I was talking about the cyvasse-symbolism, and the cyvasse symbolism alone.. I wrote an essay about it, it's in my signature. The part under The Battle at Meereen is relevant to what I was speaking about. Because either I wasn't clear, or you misunderstood what I was trying to tell you.

The entire essay is rather long, the part mentioned above isn't.. Should you wish a summary, let me know.

Ser C was dead on the money about the quotes I posted.

See Rhaenys_Targaryen, Some of them are not meant to be broken down in an Graduate English class, they are just loose hints, little nods from Martin, when seen separately really dont mean much, but when you look at all 200 examples next to each other, you really have to be blind not to see that there is something there about Tyrion and Dragons, something that no other characters, SAVE TARGARYENS, have. Like I said, I think the similarities between Dareon the Drunkard and Tyrion are there on purpose for us to see. "The dreams killed them everyone." "Sleep had never come easy to Tyrion, even on a featherbed", “And the nights were worse. Tyrion slept badly at the best of times, and this was far from that. Sleep meant dreams like as not, and in his dreams the Sorrows waited, and a stony king with his father’s face.”

--To me it's obvious, I hate that you can't see it :(

I understand what you guys see in some of the hints, and how, when you believe in the theory, can see stuff in others of those hints..

But there are still a number where I find the logic behind it not enough to convince me. An example:

You mention Daeron's dragon dreams.. We have seen the kind Aemon was talking about (Dany had plenty, and Daeron described his in detail). We can easily imagine (I think), what kind of dream Aerion will have had to be convinced he should drink wildfire, and TWOIAF paints a picture concerning Aegon V and his idea's, which lead to his death.

Be honest, does that sound anything like "I used to dream of having a dragon of my own"? The Tyrion quotes sounds like a child dreaming of a puppy.. Not of a child having a prophetic dream.

1. Dude come on! It was the great Tywin Lannister's LAST WORDS. Not just some rando conversation he had at some point.. It is what Tywin and Martin chose as his last words on earth, and with them he tells Tyrion he is not his son, andHBO kept it the same. If those words mean nothing then what are we doing here? What are we wasting our time discussing? The only statements which matter are ones that fall into a theory you agree with? I am not trying to be rude, but to say that Tywin's last words have no meaning except a loose insult to Tyrion is nuts. What if with Ned's last words he had said, 'Jon Snow is no son of mine.'??? How would you feel about that?

2. Ok so what does that have to do with what we are talking about? That is a lot like the 'Euron has a red-eye so if Tyrion is a Targ then Euron is as well' argument. Like there is no theory about Euron being the son of Aerys, just like there is no theory about Tyrion being a wildling, so what relevance does that counter-argument have really? It doesn't make sense.

1. Does the fact that they were Tywin's last words make anything else Tywin ever said less meaningfull?

2. That's not the argument that is ever used... The argument I hear quite often (in fact, it is stated as such in the OP), is:

2. Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author)

So I say, "No, Shiera is not the only other example of mismatched eyes. Euron does so too. Does that mean that Euron is a secret Targaryen? No. Does that mean that Tyrion cannot be a Targaryen? No. But it does mean that the statement of "Shiera and Tyrion are the only ones, hence it is a nod in favor of the theory" isn't a correct one."

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Well Everyone:) :):) :):)

Looks like I was right about Tyrion seeing Drogon on the boat on his way to SB!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf9zHxGMomk

I believe this is a significant moment because Drogon was drawn to Tyrion, just like the dragons were drawn to BBP. In fact, further than that, maybe Drogon came to Daznak's Pit at that moment because 2 of 3 heads of the dragon were in the vicinity on that day. BAM!

Tyrion is the first POV outside of Dany to see Drogon (or any of the dragons). If this is not significant then I don't know the meaning of the word.

Props!

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1. Does the fact that they were Tywin's last words make anything else Tywin ever said less meaningfull?

No, I think he meant it every time he told Tyrion that he doubted Tyrion's parentage. He did cast off Jaime during that one conversation, but it had nothing to do with doubting that Jaime is his child, I mean Jaime has the same eyes and hair as Tywin, and Tywin and Joanna were far away from KL at the time of the twins conception, and Aerys was jealous of the glorious twins, all of this points to the fact that jaime is Tywin's biological child..... Or do you doubt that based on Tywin's statement when Jaime was disregarding a direct order from Tywin?

Also do you deny that Tywin's last words are highly meaningful? Or that any last words of a main character should be disregarded as meaningless?

And you never answered my question, how would you feel if Ned had said "jon snow is no son of mine" with his last words?

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No, I think he meant it every time he told Tyrion that he doubted Tyrion's parentage. He did cast off Jaime during that one conversation, but it had nothing to do with doubting that Jaime is his child, I mean Jaime has the same eyes and hair as Tywin, and Tywin and Joanna were far away from KL at the time of the twins conception, and Aerys was jealous of the glorious twins, all of this points to the fact that jaime is Tywin's biological child..... Or do you doubt that based on Tywin's statement when Jaime was disregarding a direct order from Tywin?

Every time? There's only the one time, or am I forgetting an occasion?

I am completely certain that Jaime is Tywin's son.

Also do you deny that Tywin's last words are highly meaningful? Or that any last words of a main character should be disregarded as meaningless?

I'm not saying they aren't meaningful. I'm saying that them being his last words doesn't necessarily make them more meaningful (or less) than anything else he has said.

“I see you have taken a few lessons from me.”

“More than you know, Father,” Tyrion answered quietly. He finished his wine and set the cup aside, thoughtful. A part of him was more pleased than he cared to admit. Another part was remembering the battle upriver, and wondering if he was being sent to hold the left again. “Why me?” he asked, cocking his head to one side. “Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a... bigger man?”

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. “You are my son.”

And you never answered my question, how would you feel if Ned had said "jon snow is no son of mine" with his last words?

O, sorry, I must have forgotten.

It would, like it or not, completely depend on the situation. Why does Ned say it? Who does he say it to? What happened before? What's the situation?

It's not such a clear cut question, with a clear cut answer..

You clearly believe that Tywin's "You are no son of mine" is more important than Tywin's "You are my son". But why? Why would Tywin say that to Tyrion? Why would he admit such a thing, if it were true? Why would he say a thing he can't possibly be certain about, which would only shame him, to the son he already hates...?

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...

You clearly believe that Tywin's "You are no son of mine" is more important than Tywin's "You are my son". But why? Why would Tywin say that to Tyrion? Why would he admit such a thing, if it were true? Why would he say a thing he can't possibly be certain about, which would only shame him, to the son he already hates...?

I think there's a distinction to be made when Tywin is talking about decisions with public consequences. Making Tyrion acting Hand is a public statement - Tywin is keeping firm control of the office by putting his son in the position. 'You are my son' explains the political reasons for the decision. In contrast, we have 'you are no son of mine' spoken in private with an arrow sticking out of him. No one but Tyrion will hear those words or consider their meaning.

Likewise, to Jaime, after Jaime asserts the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is all he wants to be:

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

In this case, 'son' means 'heir', and Jaime has rejected the one, so Tywin won't name him the other.

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I think there's a distinction to be made when Tywin is talking about decisions with public consequences. Making Tyrion acting Hand is a public statement - Tywin is keeping firm control of the office by putting his son in the position. 'You are my son' explains the political reasons for the decision. In contrast, we have 'you are no son of mine' spoken in private with an arrow sticking out of him. No one but Tyrion will hear those words or consider their meaning.

Likewise, to Jaime, after Jaime asserts the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is all he wants to be:

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

In this case, 'son' means 'heir', and Jaime has rejected the one, so Tywin won't name him the other.

You do realise that Tywin says it when he and Tyrion are alone, right? He could have given Tyrion any reason he wanted...

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You do realise that Tywin says it when he and Tyrion are alone, right? He could have given Tyrion any reason he wanted...

Do you mean, in the case of making him acting Hand? My point there is that Tyrion just asked him 'why me?' and Tywin replies 'you are my son' - that's a political consideration, Tywin sending a message to the world, by the act of making Tyrion acting hand.

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I think there's a distinction to be made when Tywin is talking about decisions with public consequences. Making Tyrion acting Hand is a public statement - Tywin is keeping firm control of the office by putting his son in the position. 'You are my son' explains the political reasons for the decision. In contrast, we have 'you are no son of mine' spoken in private with an arrow sticking out of him. No one but Tyrion will hear those words or consider their meaning.

Likewise, to Jaime, after Jaime asserts the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is all he wants to be:

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

In this case, 'son' means 'heir', and Jaime has rejected the one, so Tywin won't name him the other.

Tywin said those words to Jaime utterly on emotions, he did not actually mean it and still wanted Jaime to become his heir afterwards. The fact that he did say it tells that it's completely Tywin-style to say "you are no son of mine" if a son greatly disappointed and angered him. And Tyrion did disappoint and angered him on epic proportions (by shooting him down with a crossbow, no less), so Tywin just did the same thing he did with Jaime: said that Tyrion is not his son.

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Do you mean, in the case of making him acting Hand? My point there is that Tyrion just asked him 'why me?' and Tywin replies 'you are my son' - that's a political consideration, Tywin sending a message to the world, by the act of making Tyrion acting hand.

Sending a message to the world is not the same as saying something to your son, in absolute private..

Making Tyrion Hand, while done in private, will be a public thing. Telling Tyrion "you are my son" when Tyrion asks why, is a private occurance. Tywin could have said anything he wanted to Tyrion, had he wanted to.

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Sending a message to the world is not the same as saying something to your son, in absolute private..

Making Tyrion Hand, while done in private, will be a public thing. Telling Tyrion "you are my son" when Tyrion asks why, is a private occurance. Tywin could have said anything he wanted to Tyrion, had he wanted to.

What Tywin is saying is, Tyrion being his son is the justification for making him acting Hand, before the other possible candidates. It's not a justification between the two of them, but a justification for the community of power players around them. It's the reason Tyrion will have a chance at imposing Tywin's will. These are all public considerations. I see your point, Tywin could have given him another explanation - but the reason he gave made a lot of sense in the context of a political discussion. Also, it hardly came out like anything approaching an expression of affection, or any intimacy based on a blood relationship. Tyrion's reaction is one of hatred, that Tywin would write off Jaime's chances of survival.

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Sending a message to the world is not the same as saying something to your son, in absolute private..

Making Tyrion Hand, while done in private, will be a public thing. Telling Tyrion "you are my son" when Tyrion asks why, is a private occurance. Tywin could have said anything he wanted to Tyrion, had he wanted to.

Tywin worded his statement this way regarding Tyrion becoming Hand because Tywin really could not say "While I have doubts you are truly my biological son, the world assumes you are, and so by naming you Hand, I am sending a signal to the world that the Lannisters are in control." It was simpler to say "You are my son," because it gets across the same political message without the part that Tywin does not want to acknowledge at that moment (i.e., the doubts).

As to whether final words are more important than other words, in a novel, often they are. Too often people analyze these issues as if the characters are acting in the way that people act in the real world. In the real world, final words might not be more significant than everything else the person had to say during his or her life. But in a novel, I think the rules often are a bit different.

GRRM will almost always give the reader a "cover story" to obscure each clue -- so lashing out in anger over being shot by Tyrion is certainly a pretty good "cover story." But GRRM could have chosen to have Tywin say something like "You are an embarrassment to the Lannister name." Or, "I wish you had never been born." Or, "You are a kinslayer, first you kill your mother and then your father." Or Tywin could have said a million other variations that were available to him if he was trying to lash out at Tyrion with his last breath. But GRRM chose to have Tywin say the words "You are no son of mine." Words with potential double meaning -- when alternative words were available that would not have had any potential double meaning. Is there 100% certainty that GRRM is leaving the readers a clue that Tywin is not really the biological father of Tyrion -- no not 100%. But taken together with other clues, it looks like a pretty good clue to me.

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Absolutely outstanding OP. I am not convinced, but my opinion is more subjective. I believe the black and green eyes have to do with his role as the deuteragonist between the protagonist (Daenerys, who rides the black dragon) and the antagonist (Aegon, who will ride the green one) in the second act of ASOIAF, which will tell the tale of Daenerys's return to Westeros following the first act, which involved the struggle between Houses Stark and Lannister, and preceding the third act, which will involve a new battle for the dawn led by the saga's true hero.

In #14, though, I think you're a little off...

14 Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard: (i) distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark); (ii) mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye); (iii) capable rulers but hated nonetheless; (iv) arrested on false accusations of treason; and (v) kinslayers.

Please remind me when Bloodraven was arrested on false accusations.
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1. You mention Daeron's dragon dreams.. We have seen the kind Aemon was talking about (Dany had plenty, and Daeron described his in detail). We can easily imagine (I think), what kind of dream Aerion will have had to be convinced he should drink wildfire, and TWOIAF paints a picture concerning Aegon V and his idea's, which lead to his death.

2.. Does the fact that they were Tywin's last words make anything else Tywin ever said less meaningful?

1. I think these quotes are so similar that they speak for themselves. Dreams (dragon or not) plague the Targaryens. Just like they do Tyrion. There are many other quotes from Tyrion where he has issues with dreams.

Sam FFC, Maester Aemon tells Samwell Tarly:

“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

The Hedge Knight--

"I dreamed of you," said the prince.

"You said that at the inn."

"Did I? Well it's so. My dreams aren't like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead."

"Did I kill it?"

"That I could not say, but you were there, and so was the dragon. We were the masters of dragons once, we Targaryens. Now they are all gone but we remain........"

Tyrion DwD--

“Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, “You are done with drink.”

“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested, Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.”

Tyrion DwD--

“Instead he drank water, and was condemned to sleepless nights and days of sweats and shakes. The dwarf sat up, cradling his head in his hands. Did I dream? All memory of it had fled. The nights had never been kind to Tyrion Lannister. He slept badly even on soft feather beds.”

Tyrion DwD--

‘Sleep had never come easily to Tyrion Lannister. Aboard that ship it seldom came at all. Aboard that ship it seldom came at all, though from time to time he managed to drink sufficient wine to pass out for a while. At least he did not dream. He had dreamed enough for one small life. And of such follies; love, justice, friendship, glory. As well dream of being tall. It was all beyond his reach, Tyrion knew now.”

Dany DwD--

"Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress. I'll have a cup of wine as well. To clear my head." To drown my dream.

2. Oh I see, like you said it's the situation. This is a moment where Tywin actually needs Tyrion to do something for him. So of course he is not going to demean and berate him. But his last words, it was just Tyrion and Tywin, there was nothing coming after, this is Tywin's last chance to say anything he wants to Tyrion. Do I think his last words are more meaningful than this other conversation where Tywin was trying to get some use out of Tyrion? Yes absolutely. Here are some instances referencing Tywin doubting Tyrion's parentage and thinking him lesser than any trueborn son could ever be.

Rhaenys_Taragryen said;

Every time? There's only the one time, or am I forgetting an occasion?

I am completely certain that Jaime is Tywin's son.

“I see you have taken a few lessons from me.”
“More than you know, Father,” Tyrion answered quietly. He finished his wine and set the cup aside, thoughtful. A part of him was more pleased than he cared to admit. Another part was remembering the battle upriver, and wondering if he was being sent to hold the left again. “Why me?” he asked, cocking his head to one side. “Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a... bigger man?”
Lord Tywin rose abruptly. “You are my son.”

You clearly believe that Tywin's "You are no son of mine" is more important than Tywin's "You are my son". But why? Why would Tywin say that to Tyrion? Why would he admit such a thing, if it were true? Why would he say a thing he can't possibly be certain about, which would only shame him, to the son he already hates...?

1. GOT--Tyrion and Jon

"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."

"Am I?" the dwarf replied sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me and he's never been sure."

2. SoS--Tyrion and Tywin

"What do I want you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

.......

"Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the KG, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I always must have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

3. SoS-- Tyrion and Tywin

"You shot me," He said incredulously, his eyes glassy with shock.

"You were always quick to grasp a situation my lord," Tyrion said. "That must be why you're hand of the king."

"You ... you are no... no son of mine."

4. DwD Tyrion

“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns of Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

I need a cup of wine, to wash the taste of Tywin from my mouth.”

Now when you compare these quote to the 1 quote you provided where Tywin was actually trying to get something from Tyrion and calls him his son, there can be no conclusion except that Tywin at the very least, doubts Tyrion is his son. Aerys did sleep with Joanna at that 10 year anniversary tourney, and Tyrion was born around 9 months later. This is the only sensible conclusion. Tywin and Joanna probably had sex in the allotted time as well, which is why Tywin 'doubts' and is not '100% sure'.

Do you really disagree that Tywin has doubts?

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