The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[LmL]

Indeed. SSE connects Men + Night Fort (NK) + Stars (in eyes like the Others) + the Ice Dragon constellation itself. That northern constellation, or at least its proximity/direction toward the curtain of light Bran glimpsed seem tied to the mystery of the heart of winter indeed. Must be a reason for their eyes to be so star-like.

Regarding those images of star sapphires, they may be far more akin to what GRRM had envisioned for the eyes of the Others... Rather than the blue tapetum lucidum eyeshine sort of thing we see in the calendar illustrations, and the electrical-current iris HBO has given us. I'm reminded of lines like "eyes like blue stars..."

So I’m with you on all that, but my question is: what the hell is that bit about watching the hellhounds fight? That seems like it should be astronomy too. Is there any mention of a constellation having to do with that? The other place we hear about a hellhound is one of the two gargoyles on Master Cressen’s balcony at Dragonstone.

[Ser Creighton]

Theres a lot that you mentioned that is going to be in the next section. In order to comment, I’d have to start paraphrasing the next section, so I will hold off. You’ve got some great ideas though, and a few are ones that had not occurred to me, so I very much appreciate that. I will say that it is possible that the other moon, the remaining one, did take some damage from the explosion of the elf moon, and I will explore the evidence for and against. I cannot decide if the hints are that it WILL take damage in the future, being reduced but not destroyed (planets is totally fucked with no moons), or if it was reduced but not destroyed in the past. The idea is very strongly implied though, one or the other.

Consider that in Amerindian, Nissa means “grandmother moon.” If the Nissa Nissa moon was the original mother of dragons, either through the firestorm or more likely the firestorm AND the origin of dragons, then “grandmother of dragons” makes a lot of sense, compared to Dany’s “mother of dragons.” However, I agree that the pregnancy connotation is there with Nissa Nissa. It may be referring only to the destroyed moon being the mother of dragons, but it may mean more. I do have an opinion, which I will get to in part 2.

Thanks very much for the response. Food for thought.

I bring up child moon because the use of children in the series. How do the Others use children? What happens to Targaryen babies, what happened to Rhaego? Mel and Shadow babies. The magic comes from the sacrifice of children and so do the weapons. Blood from anyone is probably enough but that does not change the symbolism or idea of what Martin is showing with the children. It then relates to Mirri' prophecy and the story of Azor. What went wrong? The cycle has to be inverted, to go forward they must go back.

On the moon I would suggest it was in fact the one struck. That is where the scar comes from. Not sure what happened to the second moon in chronological order or in event. Did it happen before or after? I do theorize one of the moons was a black moon when struck.

I might suggest you have the comet splitting. Not so sure about that one. But I think there was a metor shower, later it would be refered to as dragons eggs. Bu they were not actually dragons eggs. I would suggest the event sent two primary stones to the planet, that is where you see the splitting. A black stone and a white stone. The shadow heart and the heart of winter. It's just speculation though. Thing is you would need two impacts, it's an odd case. One moon destroyed and something nasty clearly hit the other and a comet that could destroy a moon. That's a hell of a comet. There is some sort of order of events involved here and I am not sure we will ever get the answer. Could be an inversion of whatever the ending of Spring is. Oh well, I have gone over this to many times, maybe a fresh perspective will find something, good luck with it. I'll check for part two when it is finished.

[Voice]

So I’m with you on all that, but my question is: what the hell is that bit about watching the hellhounds fight? That seems like it should be astronomy too. Is there any mention of a constellation having to do with that? The other place we hear about a hellhound is one of the two gargoyles on Master Cressen’s balcony at Dragonstone.

It's a strange passage:

The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan’s scariest stories. It was here that Night’s King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the ’prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark. (asos, 1544)

I wouldn't look at it in relation to Cressen's balcony. In its own right, it could be from the point of view of the stars themselves. Symeon Star Eyes. What do Stars see? Well, his saw "hellhounds" fighting. Hellhounds according to wikipedia:

A hellhound is a supernatural dog in folklore. A wide variety of ominous or hellish supernatural dogs occur in mythologies around the world, similar to the often seen dragon. Features that have been attributed to hellhounds include mangled black fur, glowing red eyes, super strength or speed, ghostly or phantom characteristics, and a foul odor. Certain European legends state that if someone stares into a hellhound's eyes twice or more, that person will surely die. In cultures that associate the afterlife with fire, hellhounds may have fire-based abilities and appearance. They are often assigned to guard the entrances to the world of the dead, such as graveyards and burial grounds, or undertake other duties related to the afterlife or the supernatural, such as hunting lost souls or guarding a supernatural treasure. In European legends, seeing a hellhound or hearing it howl may be an omen or even a cause of death.

Red eyes like Jon's Ghost. Or, red like Mars. Their connection with death can readily be associated with the "dead lands" ceded to the Others in the Long Night, by extension the Others. Their association with the "entrances to the world of the dead" quickly calls to mind the Black Gate beneath the Night Fort. The "hellhound" idea itself is a bit reminiscent of Old Nan's pale white spiders as big as hounds...

[LmL]

She also uses a morningstar to win the melee at Bitterbridge. I have a post about that here. It's an interesting passage, and my analysis notes the possible reference to Venus.

Perseus, I assume.

Awesome, i think I noticed the Morningstar thing too but had forgotten. I’ll be sure to use that - you just got yourself a hat-tip in a future essay, good Ser.

I’ll check that thread out too, I’m sure there will be other helpful stuff in there.. muches gracias.

Perseus? Well, that’s quite significant then, given all the Mithras stuff.

[Ser Creighton]

There is definitely something going on there, with the eyes + stars + sapphires. Not the least of which is that Symeon's eyes were supposedly replaced with star sapphires, which are actually different from regular sapphires. - images. But the most important point of that description, imo, is to connect sapphires with stars, as in the Ice Dragon.

Of course all of this sapphire stuff makes Brienne an interesting character to look into, being from the Sapphire Isle. That sigil is pretty neat, since we're on the subject. ;)

Invert Joff and Brie, and the names of the swords. Don't trade places, invert the symbolism. Oathkeeper becomes Oathbreaker. Widows Wail becomes Wifes Joy. Just curious, what is one of the vows of the watch that could tie to that?

As for old blues eyes and mirror shield. Proto Others? Blue Priets or something like that. The magic probably kept evolving and then someone got the bright idea to start sacrificing children or something like that.

On stars, you got a red comet, a blue star in the dragon riders eye and I like to think about a green falling star that I think represents the children that is on Dunks shield which is tied to Brie, who is tied to Jaime who is tied to Bran, who is tied to Bloodraven who is tied to Dunk. Full circle.

[J. Stargaryen]

Indeed. SSE connects Men + Night Fort (NK) + Stars (in eyes like the Others) + the Ice Dragon constellation itself. That northern constellation, or at least its proximity/direction toward the curtain of light Bran glimpsed seem tied to the mystery of the heart of winter indeed. Must be a reason for their eyes to be so star-like.

Regarding those images of star sapphires, they may be far more akin to what GRRM had envisioned for the eyes of the Others... Rather than the blue tapetum lucidum eyeshine sort of thing we see in the calendar illustrations, and the electrical-current iris HBO has given us. I'm reminded of lines like "eyes like blue stars..."

I agree about the eyes of the show!Others/WWs. Their eyes look like they could power a time-travel device.

I wonder if the eyes of the Others/WWs are supposed to replicate human eyes with a pupil and iris, or be something altogether different.

Awesome, i think I noticed the Morningstar thing too but had forgotten. I’ll be sure to use that - you just got yourself a hat-tip in a future essay, good Ser.

I’ll check that thread out too, I’m sure there will be other helpful stuff in there.. muches gracias.

Perseus? Well, that’s quite significant then, given all the Mithras stuff.

Thanks. Happy to help. :cheers:

Invert Joff and Brie, and the names of the swords. Don't trade places, invert the symbolism. Oathkeeper becomes Oathbreaker. Widows Wail becomes Wifes Joy. Just curious, what is one of the vows of the watch that could tie to that?

As for old blues eyes and mirror shield. Proto Others? Blue Priets or something like that. The magic probably kept evolving and then someone got the bright idea to start sacrificing children or something like that.

On stars, you got a red comet, a blue star in the dragon riders eye and I like to think about a green falling star that I think represents the children that is on Dunks shield which is tied to Brie, who is tied to Jaime who is tied to Bran, who is tied to Bloodraven who is tied to Dunk. Full circle.

I always forget about that one! Red, blue, and green. Like the forks of the Trident. Like you say, 3 in 1. Or maybe 3 as 1.

Hmm, I think this thread is going to inspire some interesting discussions. :)

[Waters Gate]

I have been quite interrested in celestial matters so to speak before, have made quite a few threads about relating matters, and i recognize a number of my considerations here. But i also wonder where exactly this thread is going, and if it really went to such clear conclusions. I think the author has given some good ideas, but i feel there are glaring inconsistencies too as the author is further buildign his own theory.

The most glaring point for me: What i do not understand is how the same cellestial event that you suppose was at the origin of the Long night is that event as desribed in the "forging of lightbringer" story. If the long night came about by a meteorite which traveled from outside the solar system, went aroudn a bit and then crashed on the moon, doesn't it more decribed "the forging of Darnknessbringer" really than the "forging of lightbringer"? You connect and idea of a cellestial event that caused doom to a planet to a story of how the planet was saved. And that kinda doesn't make sense. In the AA story AA sacrifices NN to safe the world, in youre view NN being hit by a meteorite is that which causes the long night.

Btw, from my own work on Astronomy in asoif, here is another tip: in our own constelation, there is a star which is called cor leonis, which means "the lions heart". In the Asoiaf world there is such a constellation called "the shadowcat".

Regulus, the actual star system that has been called "cor leonis", is one of the brightest in the sky, easiest to see at the end of winter/beginning of spring in the northern hemisphere. it's i binary system with 4 stars afaik.

[LmL]

I bring up child moon because the use of children in the series. How do the Others use children? What happens to Targaryen babies, what happened to Rhaego? Mel and Shadow babies. The magic comes from the sacrifice of children and so do the weapons. Blood from anyone is probably enough but that does not change the symbolism or idea of what Martin is showing with the children. It then relates to Mirri' prophecy and the story of Azor. What went wrong? The cycle has to be inverted, to go forward they must go back.

On the moon I would suggest it was in fact the one struck. That is where the scar comes from. Not sure what happened to the second moon in chronological order or in event. Did it happen before or after? I do theorize one of the moons was a black moon when struck.

I might suggest you have the comet splitting. Not so sure about that one. But I think there was a metor shower, later it would be refered to as dragons eggs. Bu they were not actually dragons eggs. I would suggest the event sent two primary stones to the planet, that is where you see the splitting. A black stone and a white stone. The shadow heart and the heart of winter. It's just speculation though. Thing is you would need two impacts, it's an odd case. One moon destroyed and something nasty clearly hit the other and a comet that could destroy a moon. That's a hell of a comet. There is some sort of order of events involved here and I am not sure we will ever get the answer. Could be an inversion of whatever the ending of Spring is. Oh well, I have gone over this to many times, maybe a fresh perspective will find something, good luck with it. I'll check for part two when it is finished.

Here’s what I have as far as procreation: procreation and self sacrifice seem to be thematic polar opposites from betrayal and murder. I think the cause of the Long Night was a betrayal and murder, both in the sky and on the ground. The cure, both the temporary one which ended the Long Night, and the ultimate resolution to come, should be mirror opposites of the cause - and so, procreation and self-sacrifice will feature heavily in my interpretation of the cure for the Long Night, yet to come of course. I think the stories we are presented with as the cause and cure of the long night are jumbled, both thematically and literally. I do however think there is a way to decode it.

The important thing to remember is that good and evil does exist in Martinworld: harmony and balance are his version of “good," and discord and imbalance his “evil.” These concepts of good and evil exist only in the abstract, however: no person or branch of magic is going to be wholly 'good' or ‘evil.’ People sometimes go to far, IMO, thinking that Martin has done away with good and evil altogether. He hasn’t; he’s just depicted them the way that they exist in real life - as abstract concepts. As this pertains to the cause and cure of the Long Night, well, the cause was the 'original sin,’ the original discord, the cause of the messed up seasons. To me, that’s the explosion of the second moon, the elf moon (and yes, I do think it was made of black stone, but that is for part 2). To bring harmony again, it’s going to take both sacrifice and procreation, probably literally and symbolically. That’s how I am approaching this.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Great write up!

Now, something of interest.

A comet orbits, while a meteor falls. Meteors can indeed have red tails, so perhaps it was a comet, that spun out of orbit, which explains the red. Bring on the Bloodstone Emperor! Can't wait!

Where the comet came from is the question though. The other moon? That could refer to the fighting hellhouds surely.

[Kingmonkey]

Hey that’s really interesting stuff!! I’m definitely less solid on the water forging than the other two, but I do think the lion forging is the splitting of the comet - the Tywin splitting Ned’s sword passage just screams out to me. I do see your point as far as the people on the planet wouldn’t understand the forgings in the technical way I laid out, so if we are accounting for the whole myth as being a description, you may have a point.

The idea of the reforging of Ice as a possible correlation is something that hadn't occurred to me, and while I'm not completely persuaded, I do like it. However I think it's important to observe that in the myth there are three forgings of Lightbringer, the first two ending in the sword failing. We have an emphasis in the myth that each forging takes time. Thus there is a gap between the three appearances, and it's only after the third appearance that it is forged as Lightbringer. I think this makes most sense as a mythopoeic interpretation of three visitations of a comet as three forgings of a sword, with it vanishing from sight twice.

That’s why I focused on the tails of the comet, because the tail is what makes it look like a sword. The water foreign could simply refer to the blue and white color of the first tail, and nothing more. Then, when the comet that was blue and white comes back around the sun and appears red all of the sudden, the people on the planet would surely notice the change in color, and perhaps work that into their myth.

If it changes colour, would they consider it to be the same object? It seems that comets are not so rare in Westeros that people aren't familiar with the concept, and that being the case if the comet looks different, I'd expect people to assume it was a different comet.

The other thing that the 3 forgings may represent is the 3 IMPACTS on the planet, resulting from the moon breakup. I’ve go pretty strong evidence yet to come that there were 3 impacts, and I think I know where two of them are. You actually just gave me a clue by pointing out that bit about Mymeria’s ships being the Milky Way.

Interesting, and I look forwards to reading that in further parts. However, the final forging is Lightbringer plunged into the heart of Nissa Nissa. If that's the collision with the moon, surely that must happen after the first two forgings, while the impacts would all take place after the "forging" collision.

I'd say that if we're considering impact events, the words "hammer of the waters" are going to have to come up in the conversation. That makes one impact for the Arm of Dorne. That might make the flooding of the neck the result of a second impact, though in myth the two events take place at some interval. Maybe there's some orbiting debris that causes collisions at intervals? That might give us a real cause for the Doom of Valyria. I'd also consider the Shrinking Sea to the south of the plains of Jogos Nhai a major suspect; it looks very like an impact crater in the maps. The God's Eye could be a suspect for similar reasons.

We also have the black stone of the Bloodstone Emperor falling in Yi Ti, which not only gives us another impact suspect, but ties in the oily black stone used in structures around the world. That makes me suspect there may have been quite a few more than three impacts. That doesn't necessarily clash with whatever you're planning to tell us though, as myths may have arisen locally about the impacts those people knew about, without mention of other impacts thousands of miles away.

I do think Martin is using our night sky with different names for the constellations. The ice dragon is Draco, the eye being the north star. I like the shadow cat analogy for Leo. “When the warrior is in the moon maid,” the time to steal a wife according to the willings, means when Mars is in Virgo - and indeed, it’s a common pagan belief that that is a good time to conceive.

At least partially, I'm sure he is. The seven wanderers seem to correlate to the Ptolemaic seven planets (greek for wanderer, after all), though that included the sun and moon, which doesn't really tie in. Probbaly more a literary parallel than an exact duplicate of our skies.

[Voice]

I agree about the eyes of the show!Others/WWs. Their eyes look like they could power a time-travel device.

I wonder if the eyes of the Others/WWs are supposed to replicate human eyes with a pupil and iris, or be something altogether different.

Indeed, they look like the mechanical eyes of Michael Bay's transformers! I'm wondering if they aren't supposed to look more like actual star shapes, like the inner glow of the star sapphire gems you linked.

[LmL]

I have been quite interrested in celestial matters so to speak before, have made quite a few threads about relating matters, and i recognize a number of my considerations here. But i also wonder where exactly this thread is going, and if it really went to such clear conclusions. I think the author has given some good ideas, but i feel there are glaring inconsistencies too as the author is further buildign his own theory.

The most glaring point for me: What i do not understand is how the same cellestial event that you suppose was at the origin of the Long night is that event as desribed in the "forging of lightbringer" story. If the long night came about by a meteorite which traveled from outside the solar system, went aroudn a bit and then crashed on the moon, doesn't it more decribed "the forging of Darnknessbringer" really than the "forging of lightbringer"? You connect and idea of a cellestial event that caused doom to a planet to a story of how the planet was saved. And that kinda doesn't make sense. In the AA story AA sacrifices NN to safe the world, in youre view NN being hit by a meteorite is that which causes the long night.

Btw, from my own work on Astronomy in asoif, here is another tip: in our own constelation, there is a star which is called cor leonis, which means "the lions heart". In the Asoiaf world there is such a constellation called "the shadowcat".

Regulus, the actual star system that has been called "cor leonis", is one of the brightest in the sky, easiest to see at the end of winter/beginning of spring in the northern hemisphere. it's i binary system with 4 stars afaik.

Yes, it does. Looks like I’m going to have to get part two out there soon. Suffice it to say, I don’t think Azor Ahai was the 'good guy,’ and his ‘Lightbringer sword’ was actually bad business. The theme of sacrifice in the AA / NN story, however, is part of the solution for the Long Night, then and now. But I think they AA sorry is about the cause of the LN, not the cure.

[Waters Gate]

Yes, it does. Looks like I’m going to have to get part two out there soon. Suffice it to say, I don’t think Azor Ahai was the 'good guy,’ and his ‘Lightbringer sword’ was actually bad business. The theme of sacrifice in the AA / NN story, however, is part of the solution for the Long Night, then and now. But I think they AA sorry is about the cause of the LN, not the cure.

Well i feel quite at odds with that idea. The idea is so strong that the Story Of Azor Ahai "the legendary hero" is really one about self sacrifice to safe the world. Multiple story's over the asoiaf world connect to that of Azor aha and yet speak of a legendary hero. To parralell the elements of the story to an event which is the very opposite of it feels rather hard to take for me at this point. If the story of Azor ahai and Nissa Nissa is supposedly "the recipe to disaster", then what was the recipe to deliverance from doom?

And furthermore, Azor Ahai apparently only started to "forge" when "darkness lay heavy on the world".

I do think celestial events might explain for a lot of the AA legend or even religion in the Asoiaf world (moonsingers, starworshipers, etc.) and eventually the events that brought about "lightbringer" as even mayeb a cosmic event which brought back light to the world. The possibilety's are broad however as to potential disasters which might bring about a long night both on the ground and in space and how changes in space might bring light back, and the moon can play a part in various scenario's too.

AN idea i once had, if the quartheen story of the origin of the dragons was to be connected to the AA/LB story, that it basicly meant that lightbringer was a weapon used to break a moon that really had dragons inside, and that therefore AA would would flown to the moon to do this. Now that might sound silly, but i would say that from the story i can get the feeling that Dany could fly all the way to the moon. Dany, on drogon's back, should be able to safely fly to the moon, since it's implied that dragons can travel trough space with the quartheen story, and since both drogon and dany can resist extreme heat and do not need oxygen to survive. So i actually considered before that Maybe Dany would need to stab the moon, silly as it might sound.

[J. Stargaryen]

Here’s what I have as far as procreation: procreation and self sacrifice seem to be thematic polar opposites from betrayal and murder. I think the cause of the Long Night was a betrayal and murder, both in the sky and on the ground. The cure, both the temporary one which ended the Long Night, and the ultimate resolution to come, should be mirror opposites of the cause - and so, procreation and self-sacrifice will feature heavily in my interpretation of the cure for the Long Night, yet to come of course. I think the stories we are presented with as the cause and cure of the long night are jumbled, both thematically and literally. I do however think there is a way to decode it.

We get a good deal of this symbolism at the ToJ, thanks to the KG present. Bulls and bats (Hightower and Whent) both are symbolic of death and rebirth. With the former also representing, among many other things, male virility; and the latter also symbolizing motherhood and the sacred womb. I can't find the link at the moment but, iirc, according to some Native American myths, the bat represents the desire to die a ritual death. And of course the third KG present is wielding Dawn. - Link.

Fwiw, Elio/Ran believes that Ned had Ice with him at the ToJ.

[LmL]

The idea of the reforging of Ice as a possible correlation is something that hadn't occurred to me, and while I'm not completely persuaded, I do like it. However I think it's important to observe that in the myth there are three forgings of Lightbringer, the first two ending in the sword failing. We have an emphasis in the myth that each forging takes time. Thus there is a gap between the three appearances, and it's only after the third appearance that it is forged as Lightbringer. I think this makes most sense as a mythopoeic interpretation of three visitations of a comet as three forgings of a sword, with it vanishing from sight twice.

That makes a lot of sense.. I will have to consider that. I am not sure how tightly George means to correlate the details of the myth to the astronomy. In real life, they use the basic astronomy as a framework and then they really run with it quite a bit. The metalworking-specific details in the AA myth may be added to make it make sense as a story about the forging of a sword. If the ancients saw the comet as a sword that stabbed the moon, they’d surely make up a story around that - either the moon / wife was betrayed, or she gave her life up in sacrifice, etc. But I really like the idea, I’ll have to think about it as I look a the evidence.

If it changes colour, would they consider it to be the same object? It seems that comets are not so rare in Westeros that people aren't familiar with the concept, and that being the case if the comet looks different, I'd expect people to assume it was a different comet.

It depends on how good they were at astronomy. In real life, the ancients were extremely good astronomers, observing in great detail the cycle of the precession of the equinoxes, a 25,000 year cycle through the houses of the zodiac, and encoding such knowledge into the dimensions and alignments of their monuments. That’s in Egypt, South America, North America, Europe, China, India, ancient Persia... it was pretty widespread. Point being, an astronomically advanced culture would document the occurrence of comets, and more or less know when to expect them. They would absolutely expect the comet’s return appearance after rounding the sun, and when a red comet appeared in place of a blue one (two side-by-side comets would likely still appear as one), they would find that very strange and highly significant, the kind of thing you’d make up a story to explain.

In the story, the comet is playing the role of Venus in its capacity as morningstar and evenstar. Every 500 or so days, Venus switches from being the first star in the evening sky to being the last star in the dawn sky. This is highly important for the role of morningstar deities, such as Lucifer and Mithras (again, part 2...) When the comet first appears in the story proper, Dany sees it as the first star in the night sky. The first person to see it, after it went away for a bit, was Barristan, on the morning of the battle for Mereen, the last ‘star' in the dawn sky.

Interesting, and I look forwards to reading that in further parts. However, the final forging is Lightbringer plunged into the heart of Nissa Nissa. If that's the collision with the moon, surely that must happen after the first two forgings, while the impacts would all take place after the "forging" collision.

I'd say that if we're considering impact events, the words "hammer of the waters" are going to have to come up in the conversation. That makes one impact for the Arm of Dorne. That might make the flooding of the neck the result of a second impact, though in myth the two events take place at some interval. Maybe there's some orbiting debris that causes collisions at intervals? That might give us a real cause for the Doom of Valyria. I'd also consider the Shrinking Sea to the south of the plains of Jogos Nhai a major suspect; it looks very like an impact crater in the maps. The God's Eye could be a suspect for similar reasons.

We also have the black stone of the Bloodstone Emperor falling in Yi Ti, which not only gives us another impact suspect, but ties in the oily black stone used in structures around the world. That makes me suspect there may have been quite a few more than three impacts. That doesn't necessarily clash with whatever you're planning to tell us though, as myths may have arisen locally about the impacts those people knew about, without mention of other impacts thousands of miles away.

It’s almost like you’ve read part 2 already. ;)

At least partially, I'm sure he is. The seven wanderers seem to correlate to the Ptolemaic seven planets (greek for wanderer, after all), though that included the sun and moon, which doesn't really tie in. Probbaly more a literary parallel than an exact duplicate of our skies.

That’s probably part 3 you’re talking about now. The “Seven” are definitely planets, although the details you’re implying do need to be worked out.

[LmL]

Well i feel quite at odds with that idea. The idea is so strong that the Story Of Azor Ahai "the legendary hero" is really one about self sacrifice to safe the world. Multiple story's over the asoiaf world connect to that of Azor aha and yet speak of a legendary hero. To parralell the elements of the story to an event which is the very opposite of it feels rather hard to take for me at this point. If the story of Azor ahai and Nissa Nissa is supposedly "the recipe to disaster", then what was the recipe to deliverance from doom?

And furthermore, Azor Ahai apparently only started to "forge" when "darkness lay heavy on the world".

I do think celestial events might explain for a lot of the AA legend or even religion in the Asoiaf world (moonsingers, starworshipers, etc.) and eventually the events that brought about "lightbringer" as even mayeb a cosmic event which brought back light to the world. The possibilety's are broad however as to potential disasters which might bring about a long night both on the ground and in space and how changes in space might bring light back, and the moon can play a part in various scenario's too.

We are also told the Night’s King was a bad dude, but he was sacrificing and procreating. We are told AA was a good guy, but he stabbed his wife. There’s quite a bit more to it than that, of course. I won’t be the first person to suggest that Azor Ahai was actually the Bloodstone Emperor, and Nissa Nissa the Amethyst Empress, but that’s where this is going. “Everything you’ve been told is partially a lie!” *chuckles*

Hopefully I can lay out a convincing argument to illustrate what I think is going on here. Look into the story of Lucifer - he wasn’t such a bad guy, after all. Check out the gnostic interpretation of the garden of eden story, if you want to see where this is going.

[LmL]

And hey!! Waters Gate! By all means drop a link to your threads, I’d love to take a look at what you’ve done, and I’ll be more than happy to give you due credit for whatever ideas are useful to my own machinations... I was hoping there would be other astronomy fans out there, I just haven’t seen hardly any threads thinking along those lines. Post a link brother.

[Waters Gate]

Also i want to add somethign regarding my own dabblings in "numeroligy in legends". The numbers 30-50-100 are always hard to attribute to something, because there are very few things or reference's in the book which connect to any of such numbers.

Consider though that the moon takes 30 days to go around planet westeros. This we know for a fact. And while 50 and 100 don't have much meaning for what regards a moon, if you combine all the numbers you get 180, during this time the moon goes 6 times around the planet, however it's also the time it takes the planet to go from one side of the sun to the other, and in a way this means that the moon will be between the sun and the planet say at the start of the 180 day interval, and then at the end of it then planetos would be between te moon and the sun, regardless of the fact that it would be the same "type of moon".

[LmL]

We get a good deal of this symbolism at the ToJ, thanks to the KG present. Bulls and bats (Hightower and Whent) both are symbolic of death and rebirth. With the former also representing, among many other things, male virility; and the latter also symbolizing motherhood and the sacred womb. I can't find the link at the moment but, iirc, according to some Native American myths, the bat represents the desire to die a ritual death. And of course the third KG present is wielding Dawn. - Link.

Fwiw, Elio/Ran believes that Ned had Ice with him at the ToJ.

Goddamn right he had Ice with him. That was some highly, highly meaningful shit that played out right there at the ToJ. I think it was a bit of a re-enactment of sorts...

I’ll check out the link. I love all the good threads that people are linking to here... this is exactly what I was hoping for. :cheers:

[LmL]

Also i want to add somethign regarding my own dabblings in "numeroligy in legends". The numbers 30-50-100 are always hard to attribute to something, because there are very few things or reference's in the book which connect to any of such numbers.

Consider though that the moon takes 30 days to go around planet westeros. This we know for a fact. And while 50 and 100 don't have much meaning for what regards a moon, if you combine all the numbers you get 180, during this time the moon goes 6 times around the planet, however it's also the time it takes the planet to go from one side of the sun to the other, and in a way this means that the moon will be between the sun and the planet say at the start of the 180 day interval, and then at the end of it then planetos would be between te moon and the sun, regardless of the fact that it would be the same "type of moon".

This makes a lot of sense. I have seen a lot of 6’s in the middle of all the light bringer comet symbolism, and I couldn’t figure it. Where did you get that the moon takes 30 days to orbit planetos? That makes a whole damn lot of sense, as does the 30+50+100=180. Hat-tip earned, ser. Very helpful.

Edit: that’s a very big hat tip. :bowdown: