The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[Mychel_Redfort]

The length of days change, solstices come and go, and this the Maesters know. But, the comings and goings of seasons are not dependent on these changes, as they are on Earth.

Yet, the Jeor's quote seems to say the days grow shorter or longer according to the seasons, like on Earth. Astronomically, Planetos reach the summer solstice's position on its orbit once each year. But the magic that makes the seasons irregular seems to keep the fact that the days are longest the day of the magically induced summer solstice. But I agree the maesters can't predict the beginning of seasons, their measures can just determine it once it's happened.

[Frey family reunion]

Actually, the shadow map could be the measures of the shadow cast by a gnomon. If every day at noon, when the sun is on the meridian, you measure the shadow cast by the gnomon, the shadow is shortest the day of the summer solstice, so this could be used to determine the beginning of summer. And when the shadow is longest, it's the beginning of winter.

That makes me think of this quote from AFFC:

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where the shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Yes, that's the other use of a gnonom as a sundial. That's a proof the maesters use gnomons, good catch Frey family reunion !

[Frey family reunion]

But why would you need measurements from all over the realm (if in fact the measurements are gnomons and star positions) to decide if winter is about to occur? Am I missing something basic?

[Waters Gate]

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where the shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top.

Uh, why does the hightower casts a shadow over the city at dawn? Shouldn't the sun be in the east at dawn casting the shadow over the bay?

[Frey family reunion]

Uh, why does the hightower casts a shadow over the city at dawn? Shouldn't the sun be in the east at dawn casting the shadow over the bay?

I think the bay is to the south of the city and the Hightower is kind of in the center of the city. However, not sure how accurate this map is:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0LEVjwQYP9UbqgA4SUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=map+of+old+town+westeros&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dmap%2Bof%2Boldtown%2Bwesteros%26type%3Dwny_wnzp_15_10%26fr%3Dsfp%26param1%3D1%26param2%3Df%25253D1%2526b%253D%257Bbrowser%257D%2526cc%253Dus%2526pa%253DWinYahoo%2526cd%253D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzzzzyDtC0F0ByDyCtAyByDtDtCzy0BtAtN0D0Tzu0StCtCyDyBtN1L2XzutAtFyBtFyCtFtCtN1L1CzutN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StDzyzyzy0B0Ezy0BtGzyyCyDtCtG0B0A0ByBtG0A0A0CtBtGtB0B0CtAyEyBtBzytBzy0AtA2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2S0F0EyB0ByD0DtDtDtGzzyE0BzztGyEzzyEtDtG0BtCyE0CtGtDyEyDyDtA0A0C0B0F0D0DtA2Q%2526cr%253D487516715%2526a%253Dwny_wnzp_15_10%2526os%253DWindows%2B7%2BProfessional%26hsimp%3Dyhs-fullyhosted_003%26hspart%3Diry%26ei%3DUTF-8&w=800&h=832&imgurl=i244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg4%2Fmullenkamp%2FOldtown_II_by_Other_in_Law.jpg&size=207KB&name=Oldtown_II_by_Other_in_Law.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postiar.com%2Fpost%2F24595%2Fmegapost-song-of-ice-and-fire-is-updated.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postiar.com%2Fpost%2F24595%2Fmegapost-song-of-ice-and-fire-is-updated.html&type=&no=1&tt=120&oid=4f43a16d855bbe0682bcf52e986bdee9&tit=Oldtown%2C+according+to+Other+in+law%2C+in+this+city+train+all+maesters&sigr=12feo1t2a&sigi=12956ohv2&sign=10usq46hq&sigt=103vg5ole&sigb=1hqd7t841&fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_003&hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003

[Voice]

Yet, the Jeor's quote seems to say the days grow shorter or longer according to the seasons, like on Earth. Astronomically, Planetos reach the summer solstice's position on its orbit once each year. But the magic that makes the seasons irregular seems to keep the fact that the days are longest the day of the magically induced summer solstice. But I agree the maesters can't predict the beginning of seasons, their measures can just determine it once it's happened.

I think we have an overlapping of both. A gradual, physical 'lengthening and shortening' of days, that make the maesters wonder if there hadn't once been regular seasons... and a more sudden, queer, 'magical growth' of night that forebodes the coming winter.

[LmL]

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword.

This is actually great corroboration for something in the next part of my essay. The Hightower’s fires are against the dawn, cutting like a shadow sword. Hmm, very interesting. Elsewhere we are told that light of the Hightower gives little comfort, or that someone was sad to see it. The Hightower imagery pops up a lot in the Lightbringer symbolism, as does a burning tower. I’m honing in on the meaning of this, and this quote helps. Davos’ shadow cut the painted table like a sword too, I believe.

[Mychel_Redfort]

But why would you need measurements from all over the realm (if in fact the measurements are gnomons and star positions) to decide if winter is about to occur? Am I missing something basic?

The measures will be different according to the latitude of the point of observation. And we don't know how precise the measures can be, so the more they are, the more you can put trust in the result.

[Voice]

But why would you need measurements from all over the realm (if in fact the measurements are gnomons and star positions) to decide if winter is about to occur? Am I missing something basic?

No you're right. The solstice can be determined from just one single location. I think this speaks to the maesters trying to predict the unpredictable.

[LmL]

Uh, why does the hightower casts a shadow over the city at dawn? Shouldn't the sun be in the east at dawn casting the shadow over the bay?

I tend to agree - the Tower is on Battle Isle, at the head of whispering sound. It’s shadow should not cut the city at dawn.

I find this to be evidence that the symbolism of the language is important. It’s so important, he fit it in even though it doesn’t really make sense on a technical level, when you think about it hard enough.

[Frey family reunion]

Yes, sounds good to me FFR.

The length of days change, solstices come and go, and this the Maesters know. But, the comings and goings of seasons are not dependent on these changes, as they are on Earth.

The Maesters make their measurements, because that's what maesters do, but rather than foretell the coming season, they can only bear witness once it is upon them.

They then scratch out their observations and raven them to the Citadel, white wings fly from Oldtown, and the grey mice inform their lords.

I also stumbled upon this today, the banner of House Karstark. While it isn't an explicit reference, maybe it is?...I think it may also point to my idea of an eclipse being the cause of the sun hiding its face, rather than cloud cover, in the long night...

No you're right. The solstice can be determined from just one single location. I think this speaks to the maesters trying to predict the unpredictable.

So basically if I'm following you, the Maesters are making measurements of everything they can think of, so once summers end and winters hit they look at all of their measurements and see if they can find a common denominator. So basically, if x + y + z all happens then winters have always come. Funny enough, this completely dovetails into something I stumbled on earlier today. When I googled white raven, to see if there might be any significance behind Martin's use of a white raven to announce a change in the seasons I came upon this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox

Basically there is something called a "raven paradox" or Hempel's paradox, which if I read it correctly seems to highlight the limitations behind inductive reasoning (which the Maesters may be engaging in to determine if the seasons are about to change).

The hypothesis is all ravens are black. Thus for this hypothesis to be true its inverse must also be true: All nonblack things are not ravens.

So every black raven you see gives further evidence to your hypothesis. But this also means that every green apple you see is also evidence that all ravens are black (because green apples are not black and not ravens).

So ironically if the Maesters are using inductive reasoning to determine the changing of the seasons, then they announce it by using a white raven, which disproves the sample hypothesis used in Hempel's paradox which highlights the problem of inductive reasoning.

Or of course I could be reading waaaay too much into this.

[LmL]

Oh i don’t know, that’s the kind of clever poke-in-the-ass that would amuse George greatly, I am thinking. Could be a coincidence, yes - but I wouldn’t be surprised to find out it’s not. He does shit like that all the time.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I tend to agree - the Tower is on Battle Isle, at the head of whispering sound. It’s shadow should not cut the city at dawn.

Maybe not at dawn, but the shadow of the Tower will still cross the city during the day, and give the time of the day. Where's the problem ??

[Voice]

Or of course I could be reading waaaay too much into this.

Umm. In case you haven't noticed, that's what we do here LOL

But Yes! Precisely my thinking. The maesters are making measurements, being science-like, but GRRM (in the form of the magical cause for the seasons being out of balance) is looking down his nose as he types the Winds of Winter above the North Pole, laughing at the grey, mousey, attempts to measure things that don't matter.

[Mychel_Redfort]

So basically if I'm following you, the Maesters are making measurements of everything they can think of, so once summers end and winters hit they look at all of their measurements and see if they can find a common denominator. So basically, if x + y + z all happens then winters have always come.

I don't think so. During summer, the days grow shorter, the shadow of the gnomon at noon grows longer, but not a regular pace. Some days it stays the same, some days the shadow is a bit longer, there's no way to predict it. But it's always in the same way. The day the shadow begins to lessen, winter has come and the days will grow longer.

[LmL]

Maybe not at dawn, but the shadow of the Tower will still cross the city during the day, and give the time of the day. Where's the problem ??

here’s the quote, notice this is taking place at dawn, although I guess it could be switching to a general description of the Hightower in mid-paragraph:

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where the shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top.

[Frey family reunion]

Umm. In case you haven't noticed, that's what we do here LOL

But Yes! Precisely my thinking. The maesters are making measurements, being science-like, but GRRM (in the form of the magical cause for the seasons being out of balance) is looking down his nose as he types the Winds of Winter above the North Pole, laughing at the grey, mousey, attempts to measure things that don't matter.

Ha! While GRRM is laughing at the grey mice, his ravens are pooping on their silly attempts to figure out Planetos:

Maester Luwin's turret was so cluttered that it seemed to Bran a wonder that he ever found anything. Tottering piles of books covered tables and chairs, rows of stoppered jars lined the shelves, candle stubs and puddles of dried wax dotted the furniture, the bronze Myrish lens tube sat on a tripod by the terrace door, star charts hung from the walls, shadow maps lay scattered among the rushes, papers, quills, and pots of inks were everywhere, and all of it was spotted with droppings from the ravens in the rafters

[LmL]

Ha! While GRRM is laughing at the grey mouses, his ravens are pooping on their silly attempts to figure out Planetos:

This thread is finally hitting full stride. :cheers:

[Mychel_Redfort]

although I guess it could be switching to a general description of the Hightower in mid-paragraph

Yes. At dawn, I think the sun is too low on the horizon to cast a proper shadow. Furthermore, the sun rises exactly at east only for the equinoxes. This quote is from the prologue of Feast, in the middle of autumn, so the sun should rise in the southeast, and once high enough cast a shadow falling in the northwest of the city.