The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[Ser Creighton]

Well I wouldn't presume to state a thing so categorically as to say "that's how that works." .. I would say that George seems to like invert both tropes and the numerological symbolism, and probably other stuff as well, and I've definitely picked up on that. The 1 into three and 3 into 1 in particular I think I can explain.

You mean like the wall with it's three entrances, secret fourth one though. That guards the north and Moat Cailin with it's three towers that guards the south?

Just to be clear I am teasing a bit, I might have a decent grasp on inverse parallels and the 1 and 3 cyclical inversion, the trinity effect and the unity of opposition.

I am enjoying your theory, I like different perspectives and takes on existing ideas always good to look at things a different way, never know what you might find. Theories are like a box of choclates, once you click a link you never know what your get.

[LmL]

Good job OP, that was an enjoyable read.

I like the idea of myths and legends reflecting the impact of natural phenomena and I think you got some good ideas.

However, I believe that, from the author's part, we should look at it more from the cultural angle than from what is/might be scientifically accurate: the author himself has advised not to look for scientific explanations, that "it's magic" (though I don't recall where I read it, if it was in a SSM or an interview) and really, science (and, in a lesser extent, logistics) seems to be his weakest point. So, I don't think he would aim to provide a cohesive explanation of the astronomical/planetological irregularities of his world... On the other hand, I think that the correlations of myths/phenomena and of their repetitive nature with the notion of "cyclical" history and most of all the human way to cope with things they(we) don't understand and (therefore) fear, in short, the creation of myths and legends, are certainly things that the author would exploit.

In this sense, I like (and mostly agree with) the symbolic/representational relations of moon-Nissa Nissa, comets-fiery swords-dragons and so on but, personally, I wouldn't look to find exact, evenmoreso accurate, series of natural phenomena whose reflections should be the myths and legends of ASOIAF world. (Though, I admit, it could make an interesting exercise as it surely makes a nice read.)

As a point of criticism, I believe that applying a celestial events pattern to the street layout of Oldtown is IMO quite reaching - I could buy Sarella's apples if I try hard enough, but you really lost me (for this part) with the former...

I suppose I generally disagree with the idea that "there is an 'on-the-ground' counterpoint to this celestial drama".

Anyway, very nice work in general and looking forward for the rest.

Well I'm glad you enjoyed it, even if you didn't buy some of the conclusions. I've started down this rabbit hole, so I'm going to see where it goes. I do think there's certainly a limit to the scientific accuracy - this IS fantasy, not hyper realistic sci-fi, of course. But I do think he started with a basic celestial scenario in mind, and really, if he had constructed his in-world myths WITHOUT basing it on astronomy, he would be making a huge mistake. Almost all ancient myth has a layer of astronomy to it. It's far from the most important part - the characters and ideas are - but it's certainly fascinating, and more than that besides.

As for the street layout thing, he actually uses this strategy a bunch of times, every single time someone enters a city and George lays out a quick description, he's actually buried patterns and symbols in there. Arya entering Bravos does it, Dany entering Qarth does it, etc etc.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well I'm glad you enjoyed it, even if you didn't buy some of the conclusions. I've started down this rabbit hole, so I'm going to see where it goes. I do think there's certainly a limit to the scientific accuracy - this IS fantasy, not hyper realistic sci-fi, of course. But I do think he started with a basic celestial scenario in mind, and really, if he had constructed his in-world myths WITHOUT basing it on astronomy, he would be making a huge mistake. Almost all ancient myth has a layer of astronomy to it. It's far from the most important part - the characters and ideas are - but it's certainly fascinating, and more than that besides.

As for the street layout thing, he actually uses this strategy a bunch of times, every single time someone enters a city and George lays out a quick description, he's actually buried patterns and symbols in there. Arya entering Bravos does it, Dany entering Qarth does it, etc etc.

Agreed on astronomy / scientific layer under ancient myths, but I wouldn't expect anything more that an elementary, ptolemaic or at most early Renaissance level of knowledge, observational astronomy. It doesn't even have to be plausible - if a moon needs to crack then it will crack! Just look at his biology to get an analogy...

(Though I'd love to read a "maester's" book on ASOIAF world astronomy, but I don't think we'll get any, not from Martin anyway...)

I see the description of cities as an introduction to the 'feeling' of the place and an issue of world building. But I'd like to see your views on common patterns in the cities' descriptions.

[WeaselPie]

Bingo. I shall not say more.

and bingo was his name. o.

ETA a real comment. A comet being a combo of ice and fire always sort of naggled my brain, but I couldn't bring it out of sci-fi territory. You nailed making sense of this for Planetos.

[Kingmonkey]

I had made this suggestion when Lucifer was working on this. My problem was that I was looking for an Aquarius equivalent to match water and didn't see it, so it remains speculative. The Milky Way hadn't occurred to me and for tidiness, I would prefer a water constellation, but if the Milky Way turns up in the text eventually, I guess I don't get to be choosy.

It already turned up in AFfC ch.21, see my original post!

If not Aquarius, we could be looking for equivalents to Eridanus (the river), Pisces or Cetus -- no reason to limit ourselves to zodiacal constellations. We just don't have enough Westeros astronomy, though.

Very speculative:

Sword of the Morning -- Orion.

Shadowcat -- Leo.

Ice Dragon -- Draco & Ursa Minor (Ursa Minor contains the north star, and is the dragon's rider, though around 4000BC the north star was actually in Draco) or alternatively Opiuchus (man grasping a snake, but no pole star association). Interesting to note that the Ice Dragon's polar eye-star is blue.

Stallion - Pegasus.

Galley -- Argo Navis.

King's Crown - Corona Borealis (looks more like a cradle, the Wildling name for the constellation) or possibly Cassiopia (looks more crown-like).

Crone's Lantern -- ?

Moon Maiden -- Virgo?

Ghost -- Pleiades? Cancer (called the ghost in the Chinese Zodiac)? Hercules (Phantom in early Greek references)?

Sow -- ?

[LmL]

You mean like the wall with it's three entrances, secret fourth one though. That guards the north and Moat Cailin with it's three towers that guards the south?

Just to be clear I am teasing a bit, I might have a decent grasp on inverse parallels and the 1 and 3 cyclical inversion, the trinity effect and the unity of opposition.

I am enjoying your theory, I like different perspectives and takes on existing ideas always good to look at things a different way, never know what you might find. Theories are like a box of choclates, once you click a link you never know what your get.

The silver sea is now three red lakes. Mighty Khal Mengo set about destroying Sarnor after uniting THREE score quarreling clans into one fighting force. Huzor Amai, "the amazing," took a wife from the three peoples he had conquered / unified. The bone mountains, one range, have three fortresses, just like the three active forts on the wall. Hyrkoon used to be one empire, now it's just three fortresses and a red waste. There used to be one god-emperor, now there are three.

Shall I keep going? ;)

A variation is 3/4s and 1/4s. Often in the presence of these Lightbringer astronomy patterns, I am finding that one one side, 3 out of 4 something's died, while on the other, 3 out of 4 lived. I have some ideas about that. Obviously, if you count the sun, moons, and Planetos as four bodies, one of them died. Anyway... We'll see if my ideas with these numbers are compelling to you.

Again feel free to point me at any threads you think I would find useful.

How much time have you spent with TWOAIF?

[LmL]

It already turned up in AFfC ch.21, see my original post!

If not Aquarius, we could be looking for equivalents to Eridanus (the river), Pisces or Cetus -- no reason to limit ourselves to zodiacal constellations. We just don't have enough Westeros astronomy, though.

Very speculative:Sword of the Morning -- Orion.Shadowcat -- Leo.Ice Dragon -- Draco & Ursa Minor (Ursa Minor contains the north star, and is the dragon's rider, though around 4000BC the north star was actually in Draco) or alternatively Opiuchus (man grasping a snake, but no pole star association). Interesting to note that the Ice Dragon's polar eye-star is blue.Stallion - Pegasus.Galley -- Argo Navis.King's Crown - Corona Borealis (looks more like a cradle, the Wildling name for the constellation) or possibly Cassiopia (looks more crown-like).Crone's Lantern -- ?Moon Maiden -- Virgo?Ghost -- Pleiades? Cancer (called the ghost in the Chinese Zodiac)? Hercules (Phantom in early Greek references)?Sow -- ?

Good stuff King Monkey, I think you will like a certain section in an upcoming essay, and likely you'll have some observations to improve it. :)

[Greymoon]

First of thanks so much for the praise! It was very exciting to follow this trail. :)

Wow that's really great info, and very useful. It kind of goes to what someone said above about the first two forgings potentially being related to the constellation the comet appeared from. It also provides a nice explanation for for the type of comet I was thinking of. It makes me wonder how far apart these first and second forgings were. Seems like they should be close to eachother, to be woven into the same myth. The stuff about the moon (the surviving one) taking an even 30 days to orbit Planetos, and thus 6 months equals six turns and half a year, has me thinking as I was originally - the three "forgings" probably happened on one trip of the comet through. I bet if we look at the math and the numerology George used, we can figure out exactly when the forgings happened.

The section on Sarnor, particularly the piecemeal destruction of Sarnori cities in the WOIAF is one giant version of this story. Everyone who's hip to this basic astronomy pattern I laid out should read that section and see if they can decode it. It may be the most detailed version.

;)

I think GRRM read up on more than one comet. He might have been inspired by the 1994 Shoemaker Levy 9 as well, but... here, look at that, the Napoleon Comet ...

Napoleon Bonaparte was born on 15 August 1769, one week after Messier’s first sighting of the Great Comet of 1769. According to Käufl and Sterken:

… Napoleon Bonaparte ... was aware of the legendary tradition wherein comets were associated with great rulers and by adopting comet symbolism, like that of imperial Rome, he lent legitimacy and resonance to his reign. The first historical comet linked with Napoleon was the Great Comet of 1769 (frequently termed "Napoleon's Comet"), which had an unusual red luster. Since portents are multivalent, his enemies later interpreted it as foreshadowing the bloodshed and war he brought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley%27s_Comet

The Star of Bethlehem, that announces the birth of Jesus and guides the Magi kings to Bethlehem is also sometimes associated to the Comet Halley, that becomes visible from earth and to the naked eye, every 75 years... In Dany's chapter the red comet is definitely understood as some sort of godly/prophetic sign...Only, Dany follows the comet, instead of the comet leading others to her....clearly, the red star of asoiaf, does not lead to Dany :) rather, it leads to the red waste and whatever is beyond that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

About the Comet Halley, James Huston wrote in 1910 during his visit in China:

The people believe that it indicates calamity such as war, fire, pestilence, and a change of dynasty. In some places on certain days the doors were unopened for half a day, no water was carried and many did not even drink water as it was rumoured that pestilential vapour was being poured down upon the earth from the comet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley%27s_Comet

Caesar's Comet is also important, in terms of mythology....

Ovid:

Then Jupiter, the Father, spoke..."Take up Caesar’s spirit from his murdered corpse, and change it into a star, so that the deified Julius may always look down from his high temple on our Capitol and forum." He had barely finished, when gentle Venus stood in the midst of the Senate, seen by no one, and took up the newly freed spirit of her Caesar from his body, and preventing it from vanishing into the air, carried it towards the glorious stars. As she carried it, she felt it glow and take fire, and loosed it from her breast: it climbed higher than the moon, and drawing behind it a fiery tail, shone as a star.

Shakespeare: When beggars die there are no comets seen. The heavens themselves blaze forth the death of princes.

So here comets as: death of princes, deification of the dead, war and bloodshed, as announcing a messiah to save humanity, as announcing a 'conqueror'.

On the Great Comet of 1106

In that year there was seen a star wonderful to behold, throwing out behind it a beam of light of the thickness of a pillar in size and of exceeding brightness, foreboding what would come to pass in the future: for Henry, emperor of Rome, after mighty victories and a most pious life in Christ, went to his rest. And his son, after winning the seat of the empire of Rome, was made emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X/1106_C1

[Kingmonkey]

This collision happened in 1994 while George was founding the series. It was a big astronomical event and I do not doubt that George was following it along with the rest of the world.

It also helped to inspire a wave of popular alt. history such as Fingerprints of the Gods etc, which (as I pointed out in an R+L=J thread a while back) was busy pushing the notion of ancient astronomical events being the inspiration for catastrophe myths at just the time GRRM was formulating this stuff.

[LmL]

Thanks Greymoon! Didn't want to require your entire post, but it's loaded with more good stuff. I've picked up on a lot of it, such as the idea that comets symbolize war or the birth or death of a great king, but those quotes are awesome and I may have to use some of that in the future... Hat tip Ser. I'm going to have to comb back over the comments of this thread and take notes, so many people have suggested useful things. Your comments deserve a more thorough treatment; hopefully my future works will do so.

[LmL]

It also helped to inspire a wave of popular alt. history such as Fingerprints of the Gods etc, which (as I pointed out in an R+L=J thread a while back) was busy pushing the notion of ancient astronomical events being the inspiration for catastrophe myths at just the time GRRM was formulating this stuff.

Graham Hancock is my hero. I my wildest dreams, I fancy myself as the Graham Hancock of Planetos, uncovering the astronomy under the myth. I've read all his books, and many of the books in his bibliography (ever heard of R.A. Schwaller De Lubicz?). His approach was the thing that inspired this essay. In fact, I smacked myself on the head for not thinking about the ancient Planetos myths in terms of astronomy sooner, being thoroughly schooled in Hancock's theories and writings. I'm glad someone mentioned him. :)

Fingerprints of the Gods changed my life, though not dramatically at first. Terrific stuff, one of my favorites. Talisman is fucking awesome, so much interesting gnostic stuff in there. George is definitely into the gnostic ideas.

[White Ravens]

I have to thank everyone how contributed to this theory, but above all LmL. One word sums it up - Bravo!

Bravo indeed! So much delicious food for thought.

Anyone like my explanation for the irregular seasons? That's a pretty big mystery, and I think this celestial scenario explains it nicely.

This is a sticky point. I've seen it pointed out many times that GRRM has stated that the irregular seasons have a magical explanation rather than a scientific one. Before learning that, I had theories about Planetos having a highly elliptical orbit that brings it sometimes close to the sun and sometimes far away, but that would be a predictable and regular cycle. Hmmm.... maybe an axis with a crazy wobble. Or maybe Planetos orbits a binary or trinary star. Maybe Planetos has an axis that is tilted almost on it's side so that the North gets direct sun for half the year and the south for the other, much like Uranus (insert Uranus joke here). But again, GRRM says those lines of thought don't apply. So we are back to magic causing the irregular seasons. The nice thing about your ideas concerning a comet destroying a moon is that it allows an astronomical event to somehow trigger the rise of powerful magical forces. And since comets have short and long term orbits determined by how far they travel away from the sun before rushing back into the inner solar system, it is possible that the red comet we read about in the books has been seen above Planetos many times in the long history of Westeros.

[LmL]

Bravo indeed! So much delicious food for thought.

This is a sticky point. I've seen it pointed out many times that GRRM has stated that the irregular seasons have a magical explanation rather than a scientific one. Before learning that, I had theories about Planetos having a highly elliptical orbit that brings it sometimes close to the sun and sometimes far away, but that would be a predictable and regular cycle. Hmmm.... maybe an axis with a crazy wobble. Or maybe Planetos orbits a binary or trinary star. Maybe Planetos has an axis that is tilted almost on it's side so that the North gets direct sun for half the year and the south for the other, much like Uranus (insert Uranus joke here). But again, GRRM says those lines of thought don't apply. So we are back to magic causing the irregular seasons. The nice thing about your ideas concerning a comet destroying a moon is that it allows an astronomical event to somehow trigger the rise of powerful magical forces. And since comets have short and long term orbits determined by how far they travel away from the sun before rushing back into the inner solar system, it is possible that the red comet we read about in the books has been seen above Planetos many times in the long history of Westeros.

This seems like it may be the answer, as Durran and a couple others suggested - the astronomical events triggered an unbalancing of the magic. It's hard to say exactly what the relationship between the magic and science is, as it does appear he's basing his ideas about magic on loosely scientific concepts. It's sure fun to trying to figure it out though!

[Durran Durrandon]

Ha! That's awesome. You know what else he was thinking about?

THUNDARR.

You guys are gonna trip on this, I've been holding it back. Hat tip to Durran D in this find:

http://youtu.be/LhAobPugvsk

All I'm saying is Thundar has Lightbringer.

[LmL]

All I'm saying is Thundar has Lightbringer.

Indeed he does. :)

Mithras, Lucifer, Gnosticism, the war of the roses, Tolkein and Snorri.... and Thundarr. LOL.

[Ser Creighton]

Bravo indeed! So much delicious food for thought.

This is a sticky point. I've seen it pointed out many times that GRRM has stated that the irregular seasons have a magical explanation rather than a scientific one. Before learning that, I had theories about Planetos having a highly elliptical orbit that brings it sometimes close to the sun and sometimes far away, but that would be a predictable and regular cycle. Hmmm.... maybe an axis with a crazy wobble. Or maybe Planetos orbits a binary or trinary star. Maybe Planetos has an axis that is tilted almost on it's side so that the North gets direct sun for half the year and the south for the other, much like Uranus (insert Uranus joke here). But again, GRRM says those lines of thought don't apply. So we are back to magic causing the irregular seasons. The nice thing about your ideas concerning a comet destroying a moon is that it allows an astronomical event to somehow trigger the rise of powerful magical forces. And since comets have short and long term orbits determined by how far they travel away from the sun before rushing back into the inner solar system, it is possible that the red comet we read about in the books has been seen above Planetos many times in the long history of Westeros.

The one problem I come acrosss with a comet destroying a second moon, and I mean destorying it, is that the moon is in gravitational orbit of planetos. The debris would not bee little chunks like dragon eggs, your talking about a maybe 10 km comet blowing away moon the earth was believed to have been hit by a comet between 5-10 KM in diameter, it was an extincsion level event. When the remains of moon which is 200 - 400 km wide drops on your planet it's game over.

Now I know little and less about astronomy other than I once got within a few hundred feet of a meteroite that happened shoot past me one night. But I am really curious about a couple of things. What if said moon was not destroyed. Is there some kind of orbit where they could not see it Obviously a smaller natural satalite. Or maybe some kind of Elliptic Orbit? Rocks falling to a planet is not uncommon at all. But I have been trying to figure out this sort of hidden moon idea. But astronomy is not my thing.

Now given it is magical, and probably less prone to sci fi, that does not mean Martin a noted sci fi writer as well as fantasy did not let a little slip in. But probably not to much. The long Night, Darkness, Mel walks three circles around the fire. Parallel Orbits some sort of Pitch Black really heavy sci fi would seem odd. Plus only happening once every you know 2000 - 8000 years seems odd. Though cloud cover can explain a lot, though covering a planet in a cloud seems like a big jump in magic. Cause it is mentioned the stars and the son were hidden. So it's like total eclipse or total magical world wide cloud cover. Are they in the shadow of another planet or something are there any cases like that? May have some sort of homage to Dying of the light related to it.

Martin does his ressearch, even if it is magical or science fiction he likes an explination that makes sense.

Now I ask if the second moon may not have been destroyed for a reason. A black mooon would seem to fit the symbolism in the books. Dany while bathing in the womb of the world gives us some imagery for the current moon and Dragons. Now there is the is other dragon, dressed black who is hidden and he also has some moon symbolism and the other moon is shown symbolically kissing him, and you have a shadow. Was it knocked into a different orbit some kind of fantasy parallel orbit? I don't know but what if it is not destroyed, but currently can't be seen for some explination. Got the obvious moon and the hidden one.

Though Dany's symbolism after the dragons are hatched goes from sun to moon and back. Not really looking for a very scientific answer, you know fantassy and science fiction are fine with me, just a sort of reasonable answer, given the magical world. Does that makes sense?

[Mithras]

Giant Impact Hypothesis

a video explanation

[LmL]

^^^ that's all making sense to me. I had that idea too - maybe the remnant of the moon is now lifeless and black, and far away, so it can't be seen. I can't rule it out, but is don't see evidence to support it - no hints about a "hidden" moon or a hidden moon-like thing at least that I can see.

I question your conclusion that most of the matter would fall to earth. I think the explosion itself would create a lot of force, and most of the material would be blasted out into space. Only the chunks which came close to. Planetos would be pulled in by its gravity, or at least that's my thinking. Also, if it was a double eclipse, the surviving moon would have taken some of the blow, protecting us - and that works thematically, as I will attempt to show. Again, Serwyn of the mirror shield.

Edit: this comment is a reply to Ser Creighton's comments, two posts up.

[Avlonnic]

No not yet. Oh my. 10 years before Elia was born, and Rhaegar too, so its not them.

Apologies. I should have quoted this:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#16 Lucifer means Lightbringer

I really tried hard to find the pattern of the comet's recurrence... Not seeing anything regular happening every 16 or 17 years (the time since Aegon's birth and the last comet sighting), I tried combinations of numbers to add to 17, like 17 and 25, in case it was an irregular comet. I tried to see if anything lined up with Summerhall, the birth of "dragon" Targs, or other similar big events. I was not able to find a pattern. If the comet does trigger something each time it passes - most likely war, or something magical - then there should be a pattern. I just couldn't find it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) "A comet was seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, which led his father Rhaegar Targaryen to believe that he was the prince that was promised. The comet was seen as "the bleeding star" of the prophecy."

2) Aegon was born a few months before the Rebellion so he was born in late 281 or early 282. Rhaegar left Dragonstone with 6 companions shortly after the turn of the new year (282).

3) Lyanna was born in either 266 or 267 as she was 16 when she died in 283. So conception window would approximate 265 - late 267.

As I understand the above, you are looking for an auspicious occurrence at an interval of 16-17 years since the comet was last spotted (Aegon's conception), so would Lyanna's birth or conception fit?

[Ser Creighton]

Ok so going back to the apples and Pate. Aegon I brings dragons 3 of them. Aegon III the last dragon dies. 1 and 3.

Allares is shooting the apples. A sphinx but also Dornish the sun.

Mollander whistled. You cored it. Sweet.

So through it but not destoryed. The guy throwing it is named hopfrog, one could say leapfrog.

The hightower light gets refered to as a hazy orange moon.

A Nightengale is singing in an apple tree.

Then the FM tells him in 3 days he will change gold to iron for pate. FM have there own symbolism, the Black and White. Though it looks more like a Yin Yang or half moon. And that all gets into cyclical nature and of course the moon singers that led the slaves to Baavos.

So three days hence, they are back at the In talking about Dany and the rumors. Allares has 2 arrows left, and there is an apple by Mollanders foot.

This Apple is split and wormy. Split a worm you get two worms. This is also the FM scene coming and that is also two halves. Black and white.

That's the second arrow.

The third apple Allares misses. And the apple ends up in water. Why? Because it always ends in water.

The dragon has 3 heads, says Allares. Is this a riddle? The sphinxe normally speaks in riddles. Also has moon and sun symbolism and are usually female. But it's not what the sphinx says, the sphinx itself is the riddle. Who is the sphinx? Just not this sphinx.

Now am I mistaken in thinking that Pate the pigboy, the sphinx and leo will be mirrored. Leo Tyrell right? So leo the sun but a rose as well. Later we will see Ser Piggy (Sam) a fake Pate who is reall a FM who is lets say half moon, the Sun and a Sphinx who is a sun, Dornish. But you could also say he is valyrian in sense. Well not a real sphinx. Just as Leo is not a true Lion but a Flower.

Hmmmmm that is really intresting. Now given the order of events I did on the trident this makes even more sence. Then of course the metaphore for the apples works well.

Don't take this the wrong way because I do appreciate the astronomy, but that thing you hit on with the apples is a rather brilliant find. Of all of it that appears to be a very strong metaphore. Not that any of it is bad, it's just that really has my attention.