The Hierarchy of the Others

[Voice]

Hello all,

I've posted bits of my thinking on the Others here and there on the forums, and the bulk of it has been discussed in Heresy. Alas, a couple good folks have asked me to post my 'Others' classification nomenclature in an easy to read format in the general forum, so here it be :) Looking forward to your comments and debating the merits of my little theory...

I. The Ancient Others of the Long Night

Old Nan said...

1. They can smell hot blood

2. They come without sound

3. They stalk with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds

4. They invaded the hundred kingdoms of the First Men

(I think this proves they are more intelligent than white walkers)

And thanks to Samwell, we can add more to this list...

5. They may ride giant ice-spiders

The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

(Samwell I - ASOS)

"Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are..."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

6. They may be vulnerable to dragonsteel

"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

And last but not least, from Bran...

7. They can be female or male

8. They can have sex

9. They have eyes like bright blue stars

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

(Bran III - ASOS)

Now, for me the distinction between the Others described above and the white walkers below is quite obvious. We've seen white walkers. We have never seen an Ancient Other who rides a giant ice-spider, and/or stalks prey with packs of white spiders as big as hounds. And we've never seen an Other that can seduce a man. I'm sure we'd all remember that :D

II. white walkers

1. They appear as white shadows in the woods

2. They ride dead things (as we have already seen in ASOS)

Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true.

(Samwell I AFFC)

3. They can be killed with dragonglass

4. They cannot be killed with fire

5. They do not stalk with white spiders, nor ride giant ice-spiders

6. They have a language and social structure

7. They carry magical longswords that shatter steel

8. Men who fall in battle to them will rise as Wights if not burned

i. Ser Waymar and Small Paul, for example.

ii. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

9. They may all be male

I think this ties in with the "Craster's sons" theory.

10. They melt when killed

11. They have eyes like bright blue stars

I would add that:

12. They seem able to weaponize 'the Cold' itself

They seem to use Cold as a weapon (wildling encampment and Waymar's sword in the AGOT prologue, and the expanding frost in ADWD prologue), and can quickly make a group of people freeze to death before they have a chance to make a fire.

III. wights

1. They rise from Men who fall in battle to white walkers

2. They do not ride anything, dead or spider-like

3. They are slow and clumsy

4. They have a queer cold scent that panics animals

5. They will keep moving even when dismembered

6. They retain enough memory to hold a grudge

7. They can be killed with fire, and are highly flammable

8. They cannot be killed with dragonglass

9. They have eyes like bright blue stars

Men are just now re-learning what they are dealing with beyond the Wall, so the classes of Others are still being re-learned and put back together in the novels. This responsibility belongs to everyone, but of course falls on the Night's Watch.

Lord Commander Mormont gave him a withering look. "You are a man of the Night's Watch. Try not to soil your smallclothes every time I look at you. Come, I said." His boots made squishing sounds in the mud, and Sam had to hurry to keep up. "I've been thinking about this dragonglass of yours."

"It's not mine," Sam said.

"Jon Snow's dragonglass, then. If dragonglass daggers are what we need, why do we have only two of them? Every man on the Wall should be armed with one the day he says his words."

"We never knew . . . "

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

(Samwell II ASOS)

Addendum I: "The Others" (in general)

1. They all have eyes like bright blue stars

2. They're all really, really cold

3. They are all announced by 3 horn blasts

4. They are all enemies of the Night's Watch, and the “realms of men”

It is worth noting that "the Others" are always written with a capital ‘O’. Once, this term only referred to the Ancient Others that first came in the long night, but over the course of 6-8 thousand years of never seeing them again, the term began to be used in a broader sense.

Now, "The Others" = Ancient Others, "white walkers" (always written in lowercase in the books), and "wights" (also, always lowercase in the books).

Addendum II: The 1993 Letter

Now, we also have GRRM's letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza, from 1993. In which my hypothesis seems to be supported:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

Of particular interest to me is this line from the letter:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

There are several interesting tidbits to be gleamed from this sentence that support my theory:

1. The inhuman others ride down on the winds of winter...

Winter has only just come to Westeros, which means we can't have seen these 'inhuman others' yet.

2. The inhuman others raise legions of undead and the neverborn...

Those we have seen. They are our current text's version of wights (legions of undead) and white walkers (the neverborn).

3. People have half forgotten these demons of legend...

Now, the Night's Watch is learning the differences between them again. It turns out fire is the best way to kill a wight, and dragonglass (aka frozen fire) is effective against a white walker. My theory suggests neither will be effective against the ancients that ride Ice Spiders, but that this dragonsteel Samwell found mention of in the annals at Castle Black will be.

Addendum III: The Wall

Lastly, I think this theory is supported by the Wall itself. If the Others are only 'wights' and 'white walkers' the realm doesn't really need a 700ft tall wall of ice, 300 miles long, to stop them.

Wights are slow and a series of watchtowers with fire on tap would stop them. The white walkers are trickier, but dragonglass-tipped arrows in the quivers of skilled archers decreases their threat level to about zero.

Ancient Others, with a mind for military tactics, riding Ice Spiders, leading organized attacks of wights (infantry) and white walkers (field commanders), seems a bit trickier to deal with...and the ancient Night's Watch would have wanted a way to slow them down. I think that is what the Wall is for.

So why is the Wall so big? And, why the desire of every Lord Commander to leave it higher than he found it?

Answer: The white walkers leave no footprints in snow. That means they can walk up snowdrifts the way a normal army would use siege towers. If summer snows create sizable snowdrifts around Winterfell, imagine how large the snowdrifts would have been during the Long Night. Thus, best build a big Wall...

Ancient Others may be more Man-like than our garden variety 'white walkers' and this would explain their mounts being Ice Spiders, rather than wighted beasts of burden.

Spiders climb Walls...

The white walkers walk up the snowdrifts...

The wights lie in wait within those snowdrifts...

(remember the hill outside Bloodraven's cave)

As the winds of winter blow, the cold dead lands grow, like a web of frost...stretching ever southward (or, perhaps outward from Winterfell itself). Upon that icy web the inhuman Others will ride down upon the winds of winter, astride their ice spiders.

So there it is. Have at it! I look forward to discussion and debate :)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Interesting. I've seen mentions of a difference between the Others and the White Walkers before, but no one has ever explained what they think that difference is. For the most part I thought it was established that White Walkers is just another term for Others, but there is certainly room for a different take. I'll come back for an in-depth re-read and give you some more thoughts.

[Voice]

Interesting. I've seen mentions of a difference between the Others and the White Walkers before, but no one has ever explained what they think that difference is. For the most part I thought it was established that White Walkers is just another term for Others, but there is certainly room for a different take. I'll come back for an in-depth re-read and give you some more thoughts.

:cheers: sounds good LB :)

[King of Winters]

Mmm, interesting read. There's been a theory in Heresy before that Others and white walkers are different names for different things, though that theory is the "Others" are the combination of the old races (children, giants, ww, etc) and the white walkers are the creatures we see with armour supposedly from the children and ice swords.

[Dream Wind]

OK I dont think you know but there are no white walkers in books , they term them white walkers in the show so that people dont confuse them with the word others like how they changed asha to yara so that people dont confuse the name with osha. So yeah those 2 are the same thing and also why it us robin arryn not Robert I.e. to avoid confusion and have different names for people, though I really like grrm's realistic approach of having many people with same names.

Edit: What I mean is white walker as a word is not used in the books.

Also you can check this on http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others it is said so by D&D

[Black Crow]

OK I dont think you know but there are no white walkers in books , they term them white walkers in the show so that people dont confuse them with the word others like how they changed asha to yara so that people dont confuse the name with osha. So yeah those 2 are the same thing and also why it us robin arryn not Robert I.e. to avoid confusion and have different names for people, though I really like grrm's realistic approach of having many people with same names.

Edit: What I mean is white walker as a word is not used in the books.

Also you can check this on http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others it is said so by D&D

Aux contraire, in no particular order:

Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

"Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." (1.53, BRAN)

"I tell you my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths, and snow bears the size of aurochs, I have seen darker shapes in my dreams"

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

[Voice]

Mmm, interesting read. There's been a theory in Heresy before that Others and white walkers are different names for different things, though that theory is the "Others" are the combination of the old races (children, giants, ww, etc) and the white walkers are the creatures we see with armour supposedly from the children and ice swords.

Yup, that was probably me over in Heresy there friend :) but we never included children and giants in the lot. A few heretics have posited cotf as the puppetmasters behind the Others though, that might be the source of some confusion I suppose.

[Voice]

Aux contraire, in no particular order:

Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

"Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." (1.53, BRAN)

"I tell you my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths, and snow bears the size of aurochs, I have seen darker shapes in my dreams"

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

Thanks for taking that one BC! :) much obliged...

I highlighted the instances in your quotes in case Dream Wind missed them...

I was tempted to highlight the word querulously as well, but methinks we've had that debate afore ;)

[Black Crow]

For the record, I see no reason to suppose that the white walkers of yesteryear are different from those of the present given their similarities. The fact we have thus far seen no more than six together at any one is hardly a basis for declaring that Craster's boys are different from "Ancient Others" because we haven't seen any spiders, while not only is there no evidence that the Nights Queen was made of ice, but a possible explanation for the "corpse" bit is offered in the World Book. As to who is creating the "neverborn", yes indeed some of us are inclined to finger the children:

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

[Voice]

Indeed. And that SSM while full of possibility, gives us no more connection between cotf and the Others as we have in text. Which is: none.

As to the earlier point, it is my contention the white walkers of yesteryear are exactly like those of today. The difference I am suggesting is between the Others-proper (with capitalization), and our run of the mill "white walkers" (lowercase). The Elder Others seem to have Ice Spiders and are vulnerable to dragonsteel. The pale woman is up for debate. I've lumped her into the ancient category as she was around a long time ago, but by no means is her Other-ness definitive.

Unless you believe dragonglass and dragonsteel are one and the same substance, then we have ourselves a few different classes of Other. The Ancient Others cannot stand against dragonsteel and ride Ice Spiders, or hunt with them... The (lowercase) white walkers cannot stand against dragonglass, ride dead animals, and hunt with nothing but themselves (and perhaps wights).

Another quite important difference is that white walkers, while capable of speech, do not seem like the brains of the operation. When the Others first came in the Long Night, they wiped out entire holdfasts. Once you have yourself a bit of dragonglass, white walker's aren't much of a threat, and their strategic ability leaves much to be desired (case in point, Ser Puddles).

Lastly, there is the nagging need for some creature(s) to exist for the purpose of creating the first white walkers. That's where the ancients come in. If men like Craster have been giving their sons to the wood, there must've been something out there to collect them, before the sons were changed.

The first mention of sacrifice to the Others is that of Night's King. Yet the Others already existed. They came at the beginning of the Long Night, and Night's King ascended toward the end. Therefore, the Ancient Others must've already existed.

[WeaselPie]

Excellent, VotFM.

Can I ask you where you think a creature like Coldhands might fit into this hierarchy? He's a one-off undead-type for us all at the moment. He seems to be in the service/thrall of BR, rides a living creature, retains his own memories (we think), and has black eyes, died long ago according to the children, etc. Do you think his condition is not Other-related? Just mentioning it. Skinchanger forcing out an Other? Gave his soul? Not sure where he fits in.

To Dreamwind, ditto BC's post, also if you want to bring the show into it, the show did indeed imply a three-level hierarchy for these creatures.

[Voice]

Coldhands is an anomaly. As far as we know, he's the only creature of his kind... north of the Wall.

South of the Wall... we have unBeric and unCatelyn, aka Lady Stoneheart. Who, also retained their memories... the ability to speak their native tongue... kept the eye-color they had in life (more or less, I believe unCat's eyes are quite bloodshot)... and they may still ride living mounts.

In their cases, they were dead, then later awakened by someone with the ability. I think the same is likely true of Coldhands.

Leaf says, "They killed him long ago" and she seems to reference wights as the "they." It could be argued that her statement is vague enough to suggest an unknown cause of death, but she does make it clear he was indeed killed. And "long ago" by cotf standards is likely a very, very long time ago. I think this makes it possible he was killed during the Long Night.

CH knows his way around the Night Fort well enough to know how to find, open, and pass through the Black Gate. This makes his antiquity even more likely in my opinion, as the Black Gate likely went out of fashion long ago.

As such, if he truly did die during the Long Night, his continued existence in 300AC makes a strong case that it's just as likely that Ancient Others and Night's King also still exist, along with NK's pale woman.

[WeaselPie]

Coldhands is an anomaly. As far as we know, he's the only creature of his kind... north of the Wall.

South of the Wall... we have unBeric and unCatelyn, aka Lady Stoneheart. Who, also retained their memories... the ability to speak their native tongue... kept the eye-color they had in life (more or less, I believe unCat's eyes are quite bloodshot)... and they may still ride living mounts.

In their cases, they were dead, then later awakened by someone with the ability. I think the same is likely true of Coldhands.

In other words, created by the magic of the antithesis (if you believe Mel) of the Great Other...hmm. Not trying to derail, far from it. But if that is true (and I think that Coldhands as an UnCat type does make some sense), then that Red-god power/magic had to exist in someone during that time frame. The fiery heart vs the heart of Winter.

/random thought

[Voice]

Or, perhaps, it isn't R'llhor that is waking the dead in the Riverlands after all. It might simply be the old powers awakening.

But yes, I think things are coming full circle, and since there's a red priestess at the Wall this time around, there's no reason to assume there wasn't one present the first time around.

[Voice]

Also, it's worth noting that Colhands (still wearing his blacks), Beric (on Ned's assignment), and Cat (family, duty, honor) all seem to have died amidst their oaths/duties, so this might have something to do with it...

[Timm]

Has anybody here read Fevre Dream**?

I think there might be significant parallels:

Others / Odoroten*

Coldhands / Joshua York

Warm weather / Sunlight

In FD, the Odors emered from the cold dark winters of northern Europe.

The Odors see themselves as not naturally evil but feeding on humans in the same way humans feed on cattle.

However one of them is clearly evil - he is ancient, possibly millenia old - and the suggestion seems to be that the human part of him is dead, but the beastial part survives.

The Odors cannot make humans into other Odors, but they can make them thralls.

The Odors may share a common ancestor with humans.

The Odors cannot reproduce other than through sex.

The Odor child often kills the mother by clawing its way out. As the bard put it: Macduff was not of woman borne, for he "was from his mother’s womb / Untimely ripped" Neverborn anyone?

*vampires, but those who have not read FD, might dismiss the theory when reading that word, so I used the first word Martin uses on page 117.

**PS. Forgot to say "I'm sure its been discussed before but I did a search and coudn't etc."

[Ned's Sword]

I can get behind this. It makes a lot of sense and is supported by GRRM's letter to his publisher.

I know we're not supposed to talk about the show here but on it we've seen the three of them: Wights, White Walkers and that creature (imo mistakingly) called the Night's King that turns one of Craster's babies.

[WeaselPie]

Or, perhaps, it isn't R'llhor that is waking the dead in the Riverlands after all. It might simply be the old powers awakening.

But yes, I think things are coming full circle, and since there's a red priestess at the Wall this time around, there's no reason to assume there wasn't one present the first time around.

Voila... well stated. There is certainly a closer (and older) connection than we know so far.

[aryagonnakill#2]

That damn episode of the show. As per my usual I will point out that that is not canon, and what's more I will again ask, and I'm sure not be answered, where are the WW's getting the power to resurrect the dead, and turn the babies into WW's, if they are not sacrificing anything? Does it not make more sense that they sacrifice the babies for the power to resurrect the dead? How many times have we heard only death can pay for life?

[Voice]

I can get behind this. It makes a lot of sense and is supported by GRRM's letter to his publisher.

I know we're not supposed to talk about the show here but on it we've seen the three of them: Wights, White Walkers and that creature (imo mistakingly) called the Night's King that turns one of Craster's babies.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the show's interpretation at all to be honest, even though it does support my theory. I had this impression and stated it on the interwebs here long before Oathkeeper.