The Hierarchy of the Others

[LmL]

Ok so we are thinking the same here - Dawn is the original Ice. I didn't want to give everything away but that's the deal - there was a sword switch. The original sword named Ice is now known as Dawn, and it's in the south, perhaps in case the fire people come again. Likewise, the LH's Dragonsteel blade was originally Azor Ahai's dark Lightbringer, made with sun drinking black moon stone, and it is now known as "Ice." Well okay, Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, but you get the idea. The swords were switched. A fire sword to fight others, and ice sword to fight fire people - the Bloodstone Emperor came with dragons and shadowfire magic.

I've toyed with the idea that Dawn some how has part of an Others sword in it - I tend to think it was carved from a meteor, but one from the comet and not the destroyed moon. The core of a comet is a frozen ball of rock and ice, consistent with the idea of Dawn as "Ice." Also, comets carry phosphorus, a key ingredient for life and a white chemical that burns. Phosphorus is also a word that translates to "Morningstar," "Lightbringer," etc. it's synonymous with Lucifer. Now, does it have part of an Others sword, or is it an Others sword? Possible, but hard to think how you'd "forge" something that melts into water.

I like the idea of the sword not melting because the NK is still alive.. That's clever, whether or not it's true.

You following me here?

[LmL]

Double

[Evolett]

I’m going to dive into that thread in a second, but I totally agree that Winterfell is where winter fell. Shocker! People miss the right out in the open stuff sometimes. Why is the Targaryen sword named blackfyre, and why does their main dragon, Balerion, breathe black and red flame? Because fire magic is black, corrupted, and Azor Ahai was nobody’s friend. Light bringer, red sword of anti-heroes, brought darkness. Anyway. Yes, Winterfell. I agree with the idea that Others made it pretty far south - the neck makes sense - and that the Wall was made after taking a bunch of land from them. The Starks originated in the reach, I believe, with Brandon the son of Garth, and only came to live up north after the war for the Dawn. That’s why there has to be a Stark in Winterfell, ready to wield dark light bringer against the Others when they come again. Because Ned’s sword wasn’t the original Ice - the original Ice was a white sword, as one might think. Ned’s sword... well... it’s not 400 years old from Valyria, methinks. I do think Azor Ahai’s red sword was the dragonsteel of the LH - I think Azor Ahai, as the Bloodstone Emperor, came to Westeros (the evidence is abundant) and fought the Battle at Battle Isle. His sword came into the hands of whoever was the Last Hero (possibly the BSE himself), and was sent north to fight the Others. Take the fire magic menace and throw it at the ice magic menace - the same as people expect with Dany’s dragons. I’m leaking stuff from future essays here, so I can’t list all the supporting evidence, but I feel pretty confident in what I am saying. The red fire sword of Azor Ahai was the dragonsteel of the Last Hero, and when he was done, that sword was left at Winterfell to be ready when it’s needed again.

Now, Brienne, the Evenstar, has one half of Lightbringer and is busy sacrificing people to weirwoods with it, and if she kills again in Stoneheart’s lair, the weirwoods will drink that blood too - just as Ned always washed his sword in the pool at Winterfell, which might be a melted Ice Dragon. Just saying.

oops, did I just drop the mic? :cool4:

The last chapters featuring Winterfell indicate an increasingly ferocious blizzard, we also have plenty of foreshadowing via the snowmen sentinels manning the walls. These grow larger with the continuous snowfall and very creepily remind us of the Others.

I suspect that Winterfell is, and has always been an outpost of the Others, a venue from which they can conjure up winter if the conditions of the Pact sealed at the end of the Long Night are not met.

This notion arises from my suspicion that the Pact instated the Starks as enforcers of the ‘ice principle’, which the Others represent, and that they (the Starks) are bound to uphold this principle against the opposing forces of fire (more on this idea in this post). To this end, there must also always be a Stark in Winterfell.

In my scenario, Winterfell is warded, but not against ice magic. I suspect the castle is warded against fire magic to keep the ‘fire principle’ at bay. Ned’s and Robb’s deaths have robbed House Stark of adult ‘wardens’, the remaining heirs scattered and the castle destroyed. I think the location of Winterfell on hilly ground (which was not flattened) and the presence of hot springs are also very important in this scenario. The Crypts obviously extend much further than we have seen and I wonder about the ‘spirits’ of the Kings of Winter that are kept locked up by iron swords, some of which have rusted away or are missing. This is crackpot, but could those spirits be something more than ghosts…

Admittedly, I haven’t thought much about the original Ice but if its main purpose involved a containment of fire, I imagine this weapon had properties similar to the swords we’ve seen the Others wield. As Voice points out, the Ice Ned wielded is described much like the sword used by the Others – sharper than any razor.

[Mychel_Redfort]

The Starks originated in the reach, I believe, with Brandon the son of Garth, and only came to live up north after the war for the Dawn.

Woah ! If this is true, I totally missed it. Do you have a source ??

[LmL]

The children of Garth the green, one of them is Brandon of the bloody blade. Elsewhere in the same section, it suggests that Brandon the builder could be the same, or his son, something along those lines. We are told Brandon killed so many at blue lake that it has been called Red Lake ever cents. Another one of the children of Garth was the ancestor of house crane, a skin changer family who can turn into a crane, and lives right next to… Red lake. Then we've got some name crossover, there is a Gavin gray wolf in the north, and I believe there's a Gavin in the gardener house, or a very similar name, I don't have my notes in front of me. There is a Garth Greyeyes, and I think there might be one or two more like that. Then, remember that Brandon the builder was said to have built the upper portion of the high tower, as well as Storms End, both in the south.

I would like to point out that although the "sharp as a razor's edge" thing is a good catch, and intentional in my opinion, the sword that is like the others sword is Dawn. It is described as pale milk glass at least twice, and alive with light - word for word the same as the description of the Others' swords. And both were described this way in the first book, which makes it very clearly intentional, as well as important. Meanwhile, the first time Ned's sword is described, Katlin says it has a dark and smokey appearance. One of the first things she says about Ned's sword is that it is not the original ice. That's because Dawn is the original Ice, and Ned's sword is actually the sword of Azor Ahai, the bloodstone Emperor.

I do think there was a pact with the others, and I do think a stark remaining in Winterfell is part of it. And clearly, the place is warranted. I agree with all of your thinking regarding the Hot Springs and the hills and the crypts - there's definitely something going on there. Hey hot springs in the middle of the frozen north seems like an outpost for the living, the hot blooded, as opposed to the opposite. That's the only thing I disagree with out what you said, Evolett.

[Modesty Lannister]

It does. And yes, it does inform how I view them. Yet, the icy Others, first "came in the long night." Let me flip this on you a bit...

While GRRM said he was inspired by the idea of fire invigorating life, passion, love... in the actual novels, we find fire brings death, dread, and doom.

Ice, is equated with death, cold, the razor's edge... yet, in the actual novels, we find Ice also preserves, and the Starks, while undeniably connected to Ice and Winter, seem like an honorable and loveable group of First Men.

Where things get tricky, is magic.

Natural Fire brings light and warmth to the world. Fire Magic brings darkness.

Natural Ice forms when there is a lack of heat, which, is simply electrons energized by Light. Therefore, Ice comes from a lack of Light.

But Ice Magic, on the other end of the spectrum, brings light. A starry blue light that burns.

[remember what Renly said when he was stabbed by Mel and Stannis' shadowbaby: "Cold"]

In their natural forms, ice is found in cold darkness. Fire is found in warm light places. GRRM's lesson then, may simply be that magic is baaad... (can you hear Mr Garrison's voice? LOL)

Mel manipulates us into security by playing into our natural ideas of Fire. Since time immemorial, it has provided warmth and light against the cold and dark. Yet, we know better than to trust her words. She brings only shadow into the world. And shadow begets ice (like Europa).

Absolutely, and articulated by Dalla's observation of magic as a sword without a hilt.

[LmL]

^^ Good point.

[Evolett]

I do think there was a pact with the others, and I do think a stark remaining in Winterfell is part of it. And clearly, the place is warranted. I agree with all of your thinking regarding the Hot Springs and the hills and the crypts - there's definitely something going on there. Hey hot springs in the middle of the frozen north seems like an outpost for the living, the hot blooded, as opposed to the opposite. That's the only thing I disagree with out what you said, Evolett.

On the hot springs:

Winterfell is definitely also an outpost for the living, it had to be. I think the Others have put in a few appearances over the centuries, bringing much more severe winters upon the North than usual whenever a statute of the pact was broken. This seemed to be the case when slavers took over the Wolf’s Den for instance. Eventually a Stark sorted that out and the slavers were sacrificed to the heart trees. It’s my understanding that winter subsided afterwards. What I suggest is, for the Starks to be able to honour the agreement, set things right and ward off winter, they would have to be able to withstand it in the first place, possibly for quite a while. Those hot springs and the glass gardens enable just that. They buy time. Other Lords may freeze in their castles, but the Starks don’t. I don’t have the exact quotes in my head but I recall there being demands for sacrifices to the gods to stop the blizzard in both the Stannis and Winterfell camps.

So when I say outpost I mean something else – like an outpost from which the freezing cold and winter generates. Being an outpost would also mean that the castle does not ward off ice magic so that whatever ice powers are necessary can be transmitted to the castle and radiate from there (I think the Winterfell gargoyles are intended to ward off fire magic, the inner wall as well, which is why Mel cannot see what’s happening inside the castle).

Dawn, yes, you are right. Dawn really fits that description. Do you really think Dawn is the original ice or could there have been another such sword?

[LmL]

Dawn was the original Ice. We know that it is a 10,000-year-old sword. That means it's highly anachronistic. Whatever it's made out of, and however it was made, it is sharper than the most advanced swords that anyone has ever made – Valyrian steel. It's highly irregular. My explanation for its nature is twofold: The necessary metals to make an advanced steel phosphorus alloy were present in the meteor which landed at Starfall, and the likely fact that the Daynes are descended from the GEotD, Who obviously knew how to make advanced weapons, since that's where Azor Ahai is from, and he forged Lightbringer in the "sacred fires" with a heat hammer and fold technique - that's steel making.

I'm not sure why it's always described in the same terms as the swords of the Others - is it because Dawn either has elements of an actual Others sword, or even is an Others sword (defeating my meteor hypothesis)? Or is it because the core of a meteorite is icy rock, and because phosphorus is white and has turned the sword Dawn white? Either one could explain the name, and the comparisons between the ice swords of the others and the sword Dawn. But I really think it makes a lot of sense that the ice sword was used against the champion of fire, and then the fire sword was used against the ice champions. This kind of using one magic to balance the other seems to be just the sort of thing the children of the forest are into. It's kind of the theme of the whole series.

[WeaselPie]

Ok so we are thinking the same here - Dawn is the original Ice. I didn't want to give everything away but that's the deal - there was a sword switch. The original sword named Ice is now known as Dawn, and it's in the south, perhaps in case the fire people come again. Likewise, the LH's Dragonsteel blade was originally Azor Ahai's dark Lightbringer, made with sun drinking black moon stone, and it is now known as "Ice." Well okay, Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, but you get the idea. The swords were switched. A fire sword to fight others, and ice sword to fight fire people - the Bloodstone Emperor came with dragons and shadowfire magic.

I've toyed with the idea that Dawn some how has part of an Others sword in it - I tend to think it was carved from a meteor, but one from the comet and not the destroyed moon. The core of a comet is a frozen ball of rock and ice, consistent with the idea of Dawn as "Ice." Also, comets carry phosphorus, a key ingredient for life and a white chemical that burns. Phosphorus is also a word that translates to "Morningstar," "Lightbringer," etc. it's synonymous with Lucifer. Now, does it have part of an Others sword, or is it an Others sword? Possible, but hard to think how you'd "forge" something that melts into water.

I like the idea of the sword not melting because the NK is still alive.. That's clever, whether or not it's true.

You following me here?

I've been babbling about the exact same thing.

Also, Other blood is pale blue.

And we have a pretty significant dream about twin swords with pale blue flames.

[LmL]

Don't forget the swords of pale fire held by the gemstone emperors in Dany's vision. I think they could be a match. Hence, the sword now known as "Dawn" might more consistent with those swords of the GEotD, the original fire sword.

[WeaselPie]

The last chapters featuring Winterfell indicate an increasingly ferocious blizzard, we also have plenty of foreshadowing via the snowmen sentinels manning the walls. These grow larger with the continuous snowfall and very creepily remind us of the Others.

I suspect that Winterfell is, and has always been an outpost of the Others, a venue from which they can conjure up winter if the conditions of the Pact sealed at the end of the Long Night are not met.

This notion arises from my suspicion that the Pact instated the Starks as enforcers of the ‘ice principle’, which the Others represent, and that they (the Starks) are bound to uphold this principle against the opposing forces of fire (more on this idea in this post). To this end, there must also always be a Stark in Winterfell.

In my scenario, Winterfell is warded, but not against ice magic. I suspect the castle is warded against fire magic to keep the ‘fire principle’ at bay. Ned’s and Robb’s deaths have robbed House Stark of adult ‘wardens’, the remaining heirs scattered and the castle destroyed. I think the location of Winterfell on hilly ground (which was not flattened) and the presence of hot springs are also very important in this scenario. The Crypts obviously extend much further than we have seen and I wonder about the ‘spirits’ of the Kings of Winter that are kept locked up by iron swords, some of which have rusted away or are missing. This is crackpot, but could those spirits be something more than ghosts…

Admittedly, I haven’t thought much about the original Ice but if its main purpose involved a containment of fire, I imagine this weapon had properties similar to the swords we’ve seen the Others wield. As Voice points out, the Ice Ned wielded is described much like the sword used by the Others – sharper than any razor.

This is awesome, and right in line with what I believe. It's not crackpot in the least. Heresy is probably sick of me talking about it.

The effigies of the Kings of Winter have bare swords across their knees to keep the spirits at bay... which is another way of denying Guest Right to "visitors." A very clear symbol reinforced in several chapters.

This might be the only crackpot part, that the Others visit via Gorne's way, which has an entrance in the Winterfell crypts OR near Long Lake. Or both.

[LmL]

Here's a good question: could George's magical version of milkglass be some kind of opposite to dragonglass? I do absolutely think there's an obsidian element to the red sword, AA's Lightbringer. It would make sense for "Dawn" (original Ice) to have milkglass as a component if so. The ghost grass (also compared to milkglass) grows long and sharp like a sword, much in the way that the dragonglass candles are long and sharp like a sword.

[Durran Durrandon]

I would like to point out that although the "sharp as a razor's edge" thing is a good catch, and intentional in my opinion, the sword that is like the others sword is Dawn. It is described as pale milk glass at least twice, and alive with light - word for word the same as the description of the Others' swords. And both were described this way in the first book, which makes it very clearly intentional, as well as important. Meanwhile, the first time Ned's sword is described, Katlin says it has a dark and smokey appearance. One of the first things she says about Ned's sword is that it is not the original ice. That's because Dawn is the original Ice, and Ned's sword is actually the sword of Azor Ahai, the bloodstone Emperor.

I hope you'll indulge my quibble here. Catelyn doesn't describe ice as smokey.

"Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North."

In the previouse paragraph, she describes it as being polished to a dark glow. The word dark gets attached to Ice frequently, but smokey is not attached to it in GoT to my knowledge. The Other's sword in the GoT prologue is described as "alive with moonlight" but is not described as milkglass. I just want to make sure we are making these connections with the right information.

I have question. Catelyn tells us that Ice is a 400 year old Valyrian steel sword? When and how do you think it was swapped with the BSE's lightsaber was swapped out with a 400 year old sword.

[WeaselPie]

Here's a good question: could George's magical version of milkglass be some kind of opposite to dragonglass? I do absolutely think there's an obsidian element to the red sword, AA's Lightbringer. It would make sense for "Dawn" (original Ice) to have milkglass as a component if so. The ghost grass (also compared to milkglass) grows long and sharp like a sword, much in the way that the dragonglass candles are long and sharp like a sword.

"Ghost" glass. I like it.

And yes, I think they're related at the least, if not opposites. Obsidian kills the Others, which seems natural. Obsidian is not rare, and can be made by dragons, volcanoes...fire in other words.

But if Dawn, being a unique item (as far as we know) is Ice, is dragonsteel, it may be like Kryptonite to Kryptonians.

Speculation:

Valyrian steel is reddish (forge 1) but when Ice v.2 is reforged (forge 2) it has much more red. Of course it's seen quite a lot of human blood, and we know blood magic is somehow involved in its creation. The third forge to bring it together (Nissa Nissa) may make it glow red?

Say Dawn is reforged into two swords, and its seen a lot of Other blood. Two swords, Jaime's dream, pale blue. etc.

It may be that Ned intentionally made sure Dawn went back to Starfall, as far away from Winterfell as possible.

[Mychel_Redfort]

It may be that Ned intentionally made sure Dawn went back to Starfall, as far away from Winterfell as possible.

All these parallels between Dawn and Ice imply there's more than meet the eyes with the fight between Ned and Arthur at the Tower of Joy. It can't be a coincidence there has been a Dawn vs Ice fight. And I really wonder what Howland Reed did to make Ned win...

[LmL]

I hope you'll indulge my quibble here. Catelyn doesn't describe ice as smokey.

"Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North."

In the previouse paragraph, she describes it as being polished to a dark glow. The word dark gets attached to Ice frequently, but smokey is not attached to it in GoT to my knowledge. The Other's sword in the GoT prologue is described as "alive with moonlight" but is not described as milkglass. I just want to make sure we are making these connections with the right information.

I have question. Catelyn tells us that Ice is a 400 year old Valyrian steel sword? When and how do you think it was swapped with the BSE's lightsaber was swapped out with a 400 year old sword.

Ok, you are right, they don't use milkglass for the swords of the Others, but rather their bones. The swords are however alive with light, pale blue light, etc:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge- on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost- light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

So we get the sharper than any razor, as Dawn is described, faint blue shimmer and later "pale sword" several times matches Dawn's light. The milkglass is use in book one to describe ghost grass and Dawn, so it's interesting they use "ghost light" here for the Others swords.

As for the dark and smokey thing, I flubbed that one too, it was Theon in chapter one:

Ice, that sword was called. It was as wide across as a mans hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell- forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.

Other V steel swords are described in similar terms, so it's not exclusive to Neds sword.

As for the 400 years ago from Valyria, that one IS Cat's notion, and I think it is just a cover story. I think the Starks have always had it, and once V steel was flowing freely in the seven kingdoms it was safe to bring it out of the vaults and say it was V steel. I'm guessing some stark from 400 years ago did just that. This is a guess, mind you. The other alternative explanation for Ice being dark Lightbringer would be that it really did come from Valyria - someone sold him that sword either as a mistake, not knowing what it was, or perhaps it was sold to Ned deliberately. Consider Aenar and Daenys the Dreamer. They fled Valyria at basically the same exact time that the Starks bought their sword - 400 years ago. Rhaegar, following project 380 years later, marries a Stark girl to have the PTWP. It's possible there was a reason Dark Lightbringer was sold to Starks that has something to do with prophecy. I certainly think the Targs were selling V steel swords. We know the flow of V steel increased ,when the Valurians settled Dragonstone, and the Tags moved there and got wealthy off of trade.

The third possibility is that all V Steel is made in the same way as dark Lightbringer and thus George is using dark Lightbringer symbolism around all V steel swords.

Obviously, I think the Great Empire of the Dawn possessed Dragonsteel technology. The Valyrians seem to have gotten their magic from the BSE, who warped the GEotD stuff.

[LmL]

All these parallels between Dawn and Ice imply there's more than meet the eyes with the fight between Ned and Arthur at the Tower of Joy. It can't be a coincidence there has been a Dawn vs Ice fight. And I really wonder what Howland Reed did to make Ned win...

Oh certainly. I think it was a direct reenactment of the Battle at battle isle, or perhaps a reverse parallel. Notice Neds wraiths have shadow swords.

One other thing, the Others bones are made from milkglass, and the dragons are fire made flesh. Obsidian is frozen fire. It's kind of a parallel between Dragonglass and milkglass.

[Voice]

You guys have been busy! That's a good thing :) Forgive me while I catch up...

Ok so we are thinking the same here - Dawn is the original Ice. I didn't want to give everything away but that's the deal - there was a sword switch. The original sword named Ice is now known as Dawn, and it's in the south, perhaps in case the fire people come again. Likewise, the LH's Dragonsteel blade was originally Azor Ahai's dark Lightbringer, made with sun drinking black moon stone, and it is now known as "Ice." Well okay, Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, but you get the idea. The swords were switched. A fire sword to fight others, and ice sword to fight fire people - the Bloodstone Emperor came with dragons and shadowfire magic.

It's hard for me to see the new Ice (now Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail) as the Last Hero's Dragonsteel blade. The Last Hero lived long before Valyria came to exist and start cranking out weaponry, or at least, that's what we're led to believe. I don't discount alternative timelines, but I speak from experience when I say that when we mess with the timeline, it creates a lot of issues.

As far as Dawn = the Original Ice... I agree 100%. In fact, I've suggested before in heresy that Ned returned Dawn because he knew his family had dishonored themselves with it in the long night, and that House Dayne was founded by the man who disarmed and exiled Night's King. That last part is a long shot, I know, but the first part isn't. Ned goes far out of his way to return Dawn.

Now, of course, if it were me, I wouldn't need much of an excuse to go visit Ashara Dayne ;) but the way Ned feels honor-bound to return the blade, and the reverence with which he speaks of and thinks of Arthur, is telling. According to the text, the greatest living knight in the seven kingdoms was bested by the little crannogman, Howland Reed... the same Howland Reed who the previous year was getting picked on by squires at the Tourney at Harrenhall, and had to be rescued by Lyanna Stark. Odd.

I've toyed with the idea that Dawn some how has part of an Others sword in it - I tend to think it was carved from a meteor, but one from the comet and not the destroyed moon. The core of a comet is a frozen ball of rock and ice, consistent with the idea of Dawn as "Ice." Also, comets carry phosphorus, a key ingredient for life and a white chemical that burns. Phosphorus is also a word that translates to "Morningstar," "Lightbringer," etc. it's synonymous with Lucifer. Now, does it have part of an Others sword, or is it an Others sword? Possible, but hard to think how you'd "forge" something that melts into water.

I like the idea of the sword not melting because the NK is still alive.. That's clever, whether or not it's true.

You following me here?

NK is alive and well. Cold preserves. And that dude is as cool as ice :)

You might be interested in this as well. Liquid and frozen oxygen take on a decidedly blue coloring. Pretty interesting in relation to our Others.

These "milkglass" varieties of longswords, if derived from a comet (which I don't think need be the case), could well be made from the frozen components of it. Magicked up in such a way as they do not melt, so long as they are carried by their owner. When NK was disarmed, ownership was transferred.

I'd say we can at least strongly associate the 'milkglass' material itself with Others. That is what I was hoping to demonstrate with those 5 quotes. All refer to Others directly, or the harbinger of death, or evoke other-ish imagery.

GRRM has told us that the Others can do things with Ice that we an only imagine. I think that in order to "forge" something that melts into water, you'd have to be utilizing a very powerful source of coldness, as a typical forge utilizes a powerful fire. The Others have a monopoly on Ice Magic, so far as we've seen. While Starks have shown they can endure Winter, we've no reason to assume they can wield winter, like the Others can.

The last chapters featuring Winterfell indicate an increasingly ferocious blizzard, we also have plenty of foreshadowing via the snowmen sentinels manning the walls. These grow larger with the continuous snowfall and very creepily remind us of the Others.

You should also check out this thread...

I suspect that Winterfell is, and has always been an outpost of the Others, a venue from which they can conjure up winter if the conditions of the Pact sealed at the end of the Long Night are not met.

This notion arises from my suspicion that the Pact instated the Starks as enforcers of the ‘ice principle’, which the Others represent, and that they (the Starks) are bound to uphold this principle against the opposing forces of fire (more on this idea in this post). To this end, there must also always be a Stark in Winterfell.

In my scenario, Winterfell is warded, but not against ice magic. I suspect the castle is warded against fire magic to keep the ‘fire principle’ at bay. Ned’s and Robb’s deaths have robbed House Stark of adult ‘wardens’, the remaining heirs scattered and the castle destroyed. I think the location of Winterfell on hilly ground (which was not flattened) and the presence of hot springs are also very important in this scenario. The Crypts obviously extend much further than we have seen and I wonder about the ‘spirits’ of the Kings of Winter that are kept locked up by iron swords, some of which have rusted away or are missing. This is crackpot, but could those spirits be something more than ghosts…

Admittedly, I haven’t thought much about the original Ice but if its main purpose involved a containment of fire, I imagine this weapon had properties similar to the swords we’ve seen the Others wield. As Voice points out, the Ice Ned wielded is described much like the sword used by the Others – sharper than any razor.

I don't disagree, but I prefer to think of the cotf barrow-shaped cave that now serves as Winterfell's crypts as the place of the Greenseer that was calling out to the Last Hero....the way BR has called out to Bran.

I think the LH set out from around the Neck, and worked his way up to what is now Winterfell, as his horse, dog, and 12 companions died. Once he reached that seat of power, he somehow broke the hold of the Others on the North, or so we're told. He won back what the armies of men had lost, which means, Men held Winterfell before the long night began. Now, I could be totally wrong, but that's my take on it.

The children of Garth the green, one of them is Brandon of the bloody blade. Elsewhere in the same section, it suggests that Brandon the builder could be the same, or his son, something along those lines. We are told Brandon killed so many at blue lake that it has been called Red Lake ever cents. Another one of the children of Garth was the ancestor of house crane, a skin changer family who can turn into a crane, and lives right next to… Red lake. Then we've got some name crossover, there is a Gavin gray wolf in the north, and I believe there's a Gavin in the gardener house, or a very similar name, I don't have my notes in front of me. There is a Garth Greyeyes, and I think there might be one or two more like that. Then, remember that Brandon the builder was said to have built the upper portion of the high tower, as well as Storms End, both in the south.

Brandon the Bloody Blade, I believe, is said to have been Bran the Builder's father...

I would like to point out that although the "sharp as a razor's edge" thing is a good catch, and intentional in my opinion, the sword that is like the others sword is Dawn. It is described as pale milk glass at least twice, and alive with light - word for word the same as the description of the Others' swords. And both were described this way in the first book, which makes it very clearly intentional, as well as important. Meanwhile, the first time Ned's sword is described, Katlin says it has a dark and smokey appearance. One of the first things she says about Ned's sword is that it is not the original ice. That's because Dawn is the original Ice, and Ned's sword is actually the sword of Azor Ahai, the bloodstone Emperor.

I'm not sold on Ned's sword being AA/BSE's sword. But yes on the prior. I'm not sure how it came across, but I was not trying to associate the modern Ice with the blade of the white walker in the prologue, but the original. And I believe this was GRRM's intent.

Only two blades in the entire series are described as "sharper than any razor." The one that Ser Waymar faced bravely, and the one that took off Gared and Ned's heads. Though a tomboy, Arya is no blacksmith. She's describing the look of the blade in very dramatic terms. And I believe this is a big, BIG, hint from Mr Martin that the original Ice was an Other's "milkglass" longsword.

He also uses Cat to tell us Ice is not the original Ice. Why would he do that? Seems a strange contrivance to toss into the story if it isn't important. The words of House Stark, location of their stronghold, their ancestral blade, all point to an ancient connection to Winter. They were the Kings of Winter, after all. I believe Ned returned Dawn out of respect for this history, and the humble reminder Dawn represents to House Stark. In the hands of Ned, who knows what power Dawn might have had. Terrible and fearsome, I would assume. I think he did as well, and so, he had an honorable excuse to go see Ashara ;)

I do think there was a pact with the others, and I do think a stark remaining in Winterfell is part of it. And clearly, the place is warranted. I agree with all of your thinking regarding the Hot Springs and the hills and the crypts - there's definitely something going on there. Hey hot springs in the middle of the frozen north seems like an outpost for the living, the hot blooded, as opposed to the opposite. That's the only thing I disagree with out what you said, Evolett.

I'm not a fan of the second Pact ideas myself, so I agree with there not being one with the Others. They don't seem like the "negotiating" types...

Absolutely, and articulated by Dalla's observation of magic as a sword without a hilt.

Hey you made it over! :cheers:

I couldn't agree more re: Dalla's warning. I tend to trust Val's as well, about the "dead girl."

[Voice]

Dawn, yes, you are right. Dawn really fits that description. Do you really think Dawn is the original ice or could there have been another such sword?

Another would still be fitting. But I agree with Lucifer that Dawn syncs up quite well, not only in terms of time, but in terms of name:

1. Others first come in the long night
2. Night's King is a man by day, but starts doing weird stuff at night
3. NK lays with the pale woman with eyes like blue stars
4. NK enslaves his "brothers"
5. Let's assume his pale woman gives him a fancy sword (as does Stannis')
6. NK is found out, disarmed, disgraced, cast down, exiled (we're never told he died)
7. A "brother" of the Night's Watch is the one who disarmed him, thereby ending the long night (people often miss this wrinkle, but the long night ends when NK has his fall from power)
8. This "brother" has just ended the long night, and now holds NK's fancy ice/milkglass sword...

What might we name the man who ended the long night?

How about, "Day(ne)"? The "Sword of the Morning"?

It's possible. There's no doubt Dawn is not made of steel. Steel is silver, or dark. Never white or glass-like.

Dawn was the original Ice. We know that it is a 10,000-year-old sword. That means it's highly anachronistic. Whatever it's made out of, and however it was made, it is sharper than the most advanced swords that anyone has ever made – Valyrian steel. It's highly irregular. My explanation for its nature is twofold: The necessary metals to make an advanced steel phosphorus alloy were present in the meteor which landed at Starfall, and the likely fact that the Daynes are descended from the GEotD, Who obviously knew how to make advanced weapons, since that's where Azor Ahai is from, and he forged Lightbringer in the "sacred fires" with a heat hammer and fold technique - that's steel making.

I'm not sure why it's always described in the same terms as the swords of the Others - is it because Dawn either has elements of an actual Others sword, or even is an Others sword (defeating my meteor hypothesis)? Or is it because the core of a meteorite is icy rock, and because phosphorus is white and has turned the sword Dawn white? Either one could explain the name, and the comparisons between the ice swords of the others and the sword Dawn. But I really think it makes a lot of sense that the ice sword was used against the champion of fire, and then the fire sword was used against the ice champions. This kind of using one magic to balance the other seems to be just the sort of thing the children of the forest are into. It's kind of the theme of the whole series.

Yin and Yang. I like it. But I still lean away from comet origin for milkglass. GRRM has said they can do things with Ice we can only imagine. I think their swords would be part of that ability. And clearly, they've made more than one.

I've been babbling about the exact same thing.

Also, Other blood is pale blue.

And we have a pretty significant dream about twin swords with pale blue flames.

Indeed you have, and deserve credit for advancing this theory.

Other blood sounds a lot like liquified (or extremely cold) oxygen.