The Hierarchy of the Others

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm with you here. It was the TWOIAF quote that prompted me to take a closer look at the Others. So far we've discovered a possible hierarchy and know a bit about their associates (or presumed associates). I see these as steps to discovering their motives. At present they appear to us as aggressors but there must be more to them than that. Also, overcoming 'Othering' as defined above always involves a struggle in which each side regards the other as 'the enemy', at least so long as the 'othered' side is capable of resisting or fighting. This does not mean that balance is impossible. Just how this balance (I hope) will be achieved in the end is what I find most intriguing about the series.

Jon was raised to see wildlings as the others as well. Look at all the bs in Old Nan's stories about the wildlings. Then he joined them, learned about them and finally he and Mance became bridges between 7 kingdoms and wildlings who are now joining the fight against what is coming. And I firmly believe this was just a training for Jon's final role - bringing the Others into the fold. I do not believe the real enemy are Others at all. I believe the real enemy are the Deep Ones, already spotted at Hardhome. The whole Battle at the Fist of the First Men tells us nothing. The NW ranged deep into the territory that does not belong to them in any way. Had they come across the wildlings, there would have been a battle as well. And now, wildlings have crossed into the 7 kingdoms en masse and will continue to fight with the NW against whatever is coming. But, will that be the Others? I totally doubt it. Others, like CotF, are indigenous Westerosi. They inhabit the far north now. And they obviously live long and spend a lot of time hibernating much like bears (no wonder the Bear Island is so close). If Aemon managed to live up until 103 on the Wall and he is just an ordinary human (well, not really ordinary. He is 1/2 Dayne, 1/2 Targaryen). Bloodraven managed to live 135 on the Wall and under a weirwood tree. How long is the lifespan of the Others? Very long, I'd say. Do they need a LN? Have they caused it? I do not think so. What (according to the legend) caused the LN was excessive dark magic. And as, Mance's wife Dalla reminds us, magic is like sword without a hilt. It is hard to control. In that famous quote from an Old Nan's story it is said:

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Bran IV, AGOT

and

He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

Bran I, AGOT

So, we now know the second quote is a typical expression of "otherness" in Edward Said's sense of the word. Why wouldn't the first quote be exactly the same?! Why would it be true? The only thing we do know from the first quote beyond any doubt is that the Others can move and fight at night and men cannot. This makes them excellent allies in case of the Long Night. And who else would make allies out of them than a guy who has already managed to do so with the wildlings, a guy who was born and raised as "the other" in his family, who understands the misconceptions and prejudices have nothing to do with essence of things. So, Jon Snow is about to embark on a long journey north.

[LmL]

Ok, awesome. We're together on a lot of that. So, who built the wall? It's made of Ice, 700 feet tall. The only explanation is ice magic. And who can do things no one else can with ice? The others. So it follows the wall was built by Others, or humans who could use fire magic. If the Targs and / or shadowbinders can manipulate fire magic, why not humans that can do so with ice?

I'm undecided on the "blood of the dragon" and whether or not it implies some kind of magical cross breeding or blood mingling. I'm inclined to think all the hybrids are real. The meetings and selkies seem to have crossbred (Sisterton people, Farwynds, Toad Isle statue, possibly others such as Ironborn, Durrandons (Elenei has mermaid connotations), etc. We here about lizard men, the skrikes, eyeless men (many Targ monster babies have no eyes), winged men, the 1,000 islands people with green skin and pointy teeth.

How do you explain the reptilian Targ babies if not for crossbreeding?

So for me, finding all that evidence of interbreeding highly credible, other interbreeding isn't far fetched. Plus we know Old Nan told us the Others made hybrids with humans.

The cotf have interned with many, all the skinchanger houses it would seem...

[Modesty Lannister]

Ok, awesome. We're together on a lot of that. So, who built the wall? It's made of Ice, 700 feet tall. The only explanation is ice magic. And who can do things no one else can with ice? The others. So it follows the wall was built by Others, or humans who could use fire magic. If the Targs and / or shadowbinders can manipulate fire magic, why not humans that can do so with ice?

I'm undecided on the "blood of the dragon" and whether or not it implies some kind of magical cross breeding or blood mingling. I'm inclined to think all the hybrids are real. The meetings and selkies seem to have crossbred (Sisterton people, Farwynds, Toad Isle statue, possibly others such as Ironborn, Durrandons (Elenei has mermaid connotations), etc. We here about lizard men, the skrikes, eyeless men (many Targ monster babies have no eyes), winged men, the 1,000 islands people with green skin and pointy teeth.

How do you explain the reptilian Targ babies if not for crossbreeding?

So for me, finding all that evidence of interbreeding highly credible, other interbreeding isn't far fetched. Plus we know Old Nan told us the Others made hybrids with humans.

The cotf have interned with many, all the skinchanger houses it would seem...

When I post my answer to these theories, you will know what I think about the Wall. It is just too long to explain. But, think of Ygitte's assessment that the Wall was not made out of ice, but out of blood. You are definitely on the right track when you hint that the Wall was joint endeavour. Bran the Builder oversaw the work and he was tough magic by CotF. Giants and the First Men were working on it as well. And why not the Others? Why would Stark tomb be warded with iron? My belief is that is a joint endeavour of all races living in Westeros against their POWs. And who are they? Well, they are the Wall. They are frozen in it. The Wall is a prison. The NW are the prison wards. Why is it important that they remain true and not corrupt? Because, if the magic that creates the Wall is corrupted and turns dark, those who are on the side of dark magic will be set free. Why did Mance attack the Wall? He could have sent 1000 men to climb it, slaughter all brothers of the NW, open the gates and cross the Wall. He didn't. So, what was the purpose of the frontal assault on the Wall? "The wall is as strong as the men who guard it are true". That is the purpose. To make the NW honourable and true, so the Wall is reenforced. And we do know that the NW has been increasingly corrupt. And who messes with Mance's efforts? Melisandre, a self-proclaimed Red Priestess who is a proven Asshai shadowbinder (and that is the darkest magic of all). Coincidence? I wouldn't say so. What was the Night King all about. The same corruption of magic that holds the Wall by dark magic. No wonder his name became a taboo.

So, it is about a song of Ice and Fire. A joint endeavour against dark magic that destabilises Planetos and that has not been totally defeated during the LN. And will probably not be defeated completely this time either. GRRM told us we can expect a bitter/sweet end.

[LmL]

Jon was raised to see wildlings as the others as well. Look at all the bs in Old Nan's stories about the wildlings. Then he joined them, learned about them and finally he and Mance became bridges between 7 kingdoms and wildlings who are now joining the fight against what is coming. And I firmly believe this was just a training for Jon's final role - bringing the Others into the fold. I do not believe the real enemy are Others at all. I believe the real enemy are the Deep Ones, already spotted at Hardhome. The whole Battle at the Fist of the First Men tells us nothing. The NW ranged deep into the territory that does not belong to them in any way. Had they come across the wildlings, there would have been a battle as well. And now, wildlings have crossed into the 7 kingdoms en masse and will continue to fight with the NW against whatever is coming. But, will that be the Others? I totally doubt it. Others, like CotF, are indigenous Westerosi. They inhabit the far north now. And they obviously live long and spend a lot of time hibernating much like bears (no wonder the Bear Island is so close). If Aemon managed to live up until 103 on the Wall and he is just an ordinary human (well, not really ordinary. He is 1/2 Dayne, 1/2 Targaryen). Bloodraven managed to live 135 on the Wall and under a weirwood tree. How long is the lifespan of the Others? Very long, I'd say. Do they need a LN? Have they caused it? I do not think so. What (according to the legend) caused the LN was excessive dark magic. And as, Mance's wife Dalla reminds us, magic is like sword without a hilt. It is hard to control. In that famous quote from an Old Nan's story it is said:

and

So, we now know the second quote is a typical expression of "otherness" in Edward Said's sense of the word. Why wouldn't the first quote be exactly the same?! Why would it be true? The only thing we do know from the first quote beyond any doubt is that the Others can move and fight at night and men cannot. This makes them excellent allies in case of the Long Night. And who else would make allies out of them than a guy who has already managed to do so with the wildlings, a guy who was born and raised as "the other" in his family, who understands the misconceptions and prejudices have nothing to do with essence of things. So, Jon Snow is about to embark on a long journey north.

Have to disagree here, I don't think the Others will be assimilated, and I definitely don't think "the real threat" is the Deep Ones. I think they are real, and I think they're interesting, but that would really come out of faaarrrrr left field for pretty much all the readers. I think it's possible we'll see them, and dead things in the water could be them (could also just be wighted sea creatures).

As for the quote from Old Nan about the Others, everything she said is true, just personified in a scary way to suit her story. I definitely agree the Wildlings are otherized by Westerosi - no debate there. But they do have cannibals up there (ghouls), they do steal young girls (teens) for wives, they do consort with giants, and drinking blood from polished horns is hardly far fetched for a cannibal, and I am sort of remembering a story like that, but cannot recall... As for laying with Others, everything else Old Nan has said about the Others has come true or hang been disproven, and she could be right on this one too - except I'd guess if the Others were crossbreeding, they did so with any human conveniently available, not just Wildlings. Anyway it's not utter BS, it's all rooted in truth or may be rooted in truth.

[wolfmaid7]

Good stuff. I may be wrong, wolfmaid will know, but it seems like we discussed that particular Patchface quote in Heresy. We didn't come up with anything spectacular, but "Blue flames" would be an apt description of a flaming blue sword (such as the one Jaime sees in his dream), or the flames of an ice dragon (should one prove to exist).

I try not to think absolutely one way or the other, so as not to blind myself to likely alternatives, but the Others certainly seem unfriendly.

If the fight is between the two elements, which I think most of us think likely, the title of the series makes far more sense. Like the song of swords in the practice yard, we have the song of ice and fire that clearly marks the yin/yang struggle between two polar opposites of magic.

Caught in the middle, we have life itself. Nature. The natural cycle of life and death.

At the extreme cosmic ends of magic, we have corrupted versions of both life and death. Their Song is not romantic, it is perverse. A quick glance at Coldhands, or Victarion's hand demonstrates this. There are also the pure forms of both cosmic ends: the Others and their Ice Spiders, or perhaps, the Starks and their Others...and at the other end, we have the Valyrians and their Dragons. Both of which bring only death. One, in the form of fire and blood. The Other, in the form of ice and blood. Either way, Life loses.

Oh boy LOL

Wolfmaid, we've already agreed to disagree on this one. Many times. I did not say that quote proves wws were at the Fist, but it does raise that prospect as being very likely.

You read it differently. And I admire your unique perspective on it. But, Samwell is not like most characters. He doesn't "see wights and assume wws." He's one character that knows the difference. He's a reader, like us. He's knowledgeable. He described the wights very clearly, then drew a clear distinction between them and the Others. Feel free to think otherwise, but we've already had this debate. For most readers, this is quite suggestive, and fits well with Old Nan's description of the Others leading legions of the undead. I know you disagree, and completely respect that, but I don' think it will be fruitful for us to repeat that particular debate here.

Agreed. But Samwell (Samwell I ASOS) clearly remembers a wight attack at the Fist... then, forces himself to forget something else:

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

Later in that same chapter, we have this:

"You won't." Grenn's thick brown beard was frozen all around his mouth. It made him look like some old man. "You'll freeze, or the Others will get you. Sam, get up!"

A bit later, still within this same chapter:

The wind sighed through the trees, driving a fine spray of snow into their faces. The cold was so bitter that Sam felt naked. He looked for the other torches, but they were gone, every one of them. There was only the one Grenn carried, the flames rising from it like pale orange silks. He could see through them, to the black beyond. That torch will burn out soon, he thought, and we are all alone, without food or friends or fire.

But that was wrong. They weren't alone at all.

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

Clearly, wights can attack without wws amid their ranks. But I think Samwell knows the difference between the two, and forces himself to not remember the Others, just before one finds him.

Ah you misunderstand me with the green bolded.I am not saying Sam is unable to tell the difference between a Wight and a ww.I'm saying not only do they not know what an Other is which is true.No living man has seen an Other.If they did we wouldn't have characters calling wws Others and therein is part of the problem.

Secondly,what i am saying is characters have grown up thinking that wws are responsible for raising the Wights and moreso that they are the one controlling them.Therefore,they may never see wws but the moment they see Wights the conclusion is wws/others are there.That conclusion is the one that is wrong.

Voice i just put like four quotes and situations where Sam is recounting what happened and he doesn't mention "the pale thing in the woods" in any other situation except when Puddles came in rising on a horse because that was the First time since the ordeal started that he saw a ww.

With respect to the "the war" it is an elemental war and the sad thing about it factions within it may be working to ensure the war happens without actually working with each other.For instance Mel and Dany may never discuss battle plans .Dany has no notion about plans to ensure an endless Summer.

And because we have no POV from the ice side we have no idea if anyone there wan't and endless Winter or if its something humans pulled out of their butts.

As to Patchface he may have had the best sex ever..lol kind of remind me of the Mermaid legends where they drag men down to the deep and take their seed.And it is only these men who could understand their song.

[LmL]

When I post my answer to these theories, you will know what I think about the Wall. It is just too long to explain. But, think of Ygitte's assessment that the Wall was not made out of ice, but out of blood. You are definitely on the right track when you hint that the Wall was joint endeavour. Bran the Builder oversaw the work and he was tough magic by CotF. Giants and the First Men were working on it as well. And why not the Others? Why would Stark tomb be warded with iron? My belief is that is a joint endeavour of all races living in Westeros against their POWs. And who are they? Well, they are the Wall. They are frozen in it. The Wall is a prison. The NW are the prison wards. Why is it important that they remain true and not corrupt? Because, if the magic that creates the Wall is corrupted and turns dark, those who are on the side of dark magic will be set free. Why did Mance attack the Wall? He could have sent 1000 men to climb it, slaughter all brothers of the NW, open the gates and cross the Wall. He didn't. So, what was the purpose of the frontal assault on the Wall? "The wall is as strong as the men who guard it are true". That is the purpose. To make the NW honourable and true, so the Wall is reenforced. And we do know that the NW has been increasingly corrupt. And who messes with Mance's efforts? Melisandre, a self-proclaimed Red Priestess who is a proven Asshai shadowbinder (and that is the darkest magic of all). Coincidence? I wouldn't say so. What was the Night King all about. The same corruption of magic that holds the Wall by dark magic. No wonder his name became a taboo.

So, it is about a song of Ice and Fire. A joint endeavour against dark magic that destabilises Planetos and that has not been totally defeated during the LN. And will probably not be defeated completely this time either. GRRM told us we can expect a bitter/sweet end.

Huh what now? Their POW’s? I’m not following. Who’s trapped in the wall that the Others, giants, humans, and cotf united against? I really don’t see Others working with anyone. They either built the wall themselves, imo, or a human with ice magic ability, likely BtB, was able to do it with sorcery. I really think that “the giants helped them” is BS the maesters made up to explain something they couldn’t understand.

As for Mance Rayder attacking the wall to toughen it up... I don’t buy that at all. I don’t see any textual support for that, and it just doesn’t make sense. Sending several raiders over the wall to attack from the south and open the gates makes a lot of damn sense. Most people can’t climb the wall - it’s clearly very difficult - so they really needed to open a gate. I don’t see any part of Mance’s strategy that didn’t make sense. Attacking the wall is desperate - and they were desperate to escape the Others. That all fits.

[Modesty Lannister]

Huh what now? Their POW’s? I’m not following. Who’s trapped in the wall that the Others, giants, humans, and cotf united against? I really don’t see Others working with anyone. They either built the wall themselves, imo, or a human with ice magic ability, likely BtB, was able to do it with sorcery. I really think that “the giants helped them” is BS the maesters made up to explain something they couldn’t understand.

As for Mance Rayder attacking the wall to toughen it up... I don’t buy that at all. I don’t see any textual support for that, and it just doesn’t make sense. Sending several raiders over the wall to attack from the south and open the gates makes a lot of damn sense. Most people can’t climb the wall - it’s clearly very difficult - so they really needed to open a gate. I don’t see any part of Mance’s strategy that didn’t make sense. Attacking the wall is desperate - and they were desperate to escape the Others. That all fits.

For a man who developed a theory based on BSE, you seem very confused. BSE allowed and practiced dark magic that was so widespread that it ushered the LN. There is nothing ambiguous about it. So, all the dark magic dwellers who were POWs in Westeros ended up in the Wall safeguarded by probably all magics mentioned in the Pact, but predominantly by earth and ice magic. So, the Deep Ones may be in the Wall as well.

As for my theory about Mance's attack not being textually supported, I'd advise you to reconsider. Mance is anything, but a desperate man.

[Voice]

Have to disagree here, I don't think the Others will be assimilated, and I definitely don't think "the real threat" is the Deep Ones. I think they are real, and I think they're interesting, but that would really come out of faaarrrrr left field for pretty much all the readers. I think it's possible we'll see them, and dead things in the water could be them (could also just be wighted sea creatures).

:agree: GRRM doesn't want to be predictable, and won't be, but he still wants his magnum opus to make sense. Per the 1993 letter, the butchery of Waymar Royce, Old Nan's stories, the Fist, dragonglass and dragonsteel, the refrain of the curse "the Others take you/him/her/it"...etc etc... the Others have always been, and remain, the true threat to Westeros.

As for the quote from Old Nan about the Others, everything she said is true, just personified in a scary way to suit her story. I definitely agree the Wildlings are otherized by Westerosi - no debate there. But they do have cannibals up there (ghouls), they do steal young girls (teens) for wives, they do consort with giants, and drinking blood from polished horns is hardly far fetched for a cannibal, and I am sort of remembering a story like that, but cannot recall... As for laying with Others, everything else Old Nan has said about the Others has come true or hang been disproven, and she could be right on this one too - except I'd guess if the Others were crossbreeding, they did so with any human conveniently available, not just Wildlings. Anyway it's not utter BS, it's all rooted in truth or may be rooted in truth.

Yup. Thus far, Old Nan has been the most reliable narrator of Northern realities.

Ah you misunderstand me with the green bolded.I am not saying Sam is unable to tell the difference between a Wight and a ww.I'm saying not only do they not know what an Other is which is true.No living man has seen an Other.If they did we wouldn't have characters calling wws Others and therein is part of the problem.

It's mostly true, yes. But Samwell himself draws the distinction:

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

"...and the Others"

Not, "...were they wights or others?"

We've already agreed to disagree on this one wolfmaid...

Secondly,what i am saying is characters have grown up thinking that wws are responsible for raising the Wights and moreso that they are the one controlling them.Therefore,they may never see wws but the moment they see Wights the conclusion is wws/others are there.That conclusion is the one that is wrong.

You'll have to take that one up with Old Nan... or the author:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Voice i just put like four quotes and situations where Sam is recounting what happened and he doesn't mention "the pale thing in the woods" in any other situation except when Puddles came in rising on a horse because that was the First time since the ordeal started that he saw a ww.

Indeed. As you always do. And as I always reply... we already know Samwell has forced the memory from his mind of whatever "the Others" were about at the Fist...

Again:

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

See?

This is why we've agreed to disagree.

We read this quote differently. It is not a fruitful debate.

With respect to the "the war" it is an elemental war and the sad thing about it factions within it may be working to ensure the war happens without actually working with each other.For instance Mel and Dany may never discuss battle plans .Dany has no notion about plans to ensure an endless Summer.

And because we have no POV from the ice side we have no idea if anyone there wan't and endless Winter or if its something humans pulled out of their butts.

And why don't we have a POV from the Ice side?

Why has Martin deliberately cloaked their motives in mystery?

Why has he not humanized them in any way?

Could it be because The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life"???

As to Patchface he may have had the best sex ever..lol kind of remind me of the Mermaid legends where they drag men down to the deep and take their seed.And it is only these men who could understand their song.

:cheers: And I like the idea of his singing improving once underwater :D

[LmL]

For a man who developed a theory based on BSE, you seem very confused. BSE allowed and practiced dark magic that was so widespread that it ushered the LN. There is nothing ambiguous about it. So, all the dark magic dwellers who were POWs in Westeros ended up in the Wall safeguarded by probably all magics mentioned in the Pact, but predominantly by heart and ice magic. So, the Deep Ones may be in the Wall as well.

As for my theory about Mance's attack not being textually supported, I'd advise you to reconsider. Mance is anything, but a desperate man.

Ah ok at least I can follow the train of logic there. I just didn’t know who you meant as POWs.

As for Mance, I agree he’s very calculating, but sometimes you have to take a calculated risk. He had no bloody choice but to try to get n the other side of the wall. Generally speaking, attacking a 700 foot wall, by any means, is fairly desperate. That’s what I meant. They had no choice but to launch the attack on the wall. Given that, I find no logical inconsistency in Mance’s tactics.

That said, if you’ve got a theory in development, I’ll reserve judgement until i see you evidence. I know its tricky presenting only part of a theory, without all the evidence that brought you there. I’ve done that to myself a couple times and regretted saying anything. But I look forward to your theory.

Edit: of course the story of Mad Axe and the sentinels provide a precedent for sealing people up in the wall, so that’s good. Martin always sets precedents like that.

[Modesty Lannister]

Ah ok at least I can follow the train of logic there. I just didn’t know who you meant as POWs.

As for Mance, I agree he’s very calculating, but sometimes you have to take a calculated risk. He had no bloody choice but to try to get n the other side of the wall. Generally speaking, attacking a 700 foot wall, by any means, is fairly desperate. That’s what I meant. They had no choice but to launch the attack on the wall. Given that, I find no logical inconsistency in Mance’s tactics.

That said, if you’ve got a theory in development, I’ll reserve judgement until i see you evidence. I know its tricky presenting only part of a theory, without all the evidence that brought you there. I’ve done that to myself a couple times and regretted saying anything. But I look forward to your theory.

Edit: of course the story of Mad Axe and the sentinels provide a precedent for sealing people up in the wall, so that’s good. Martin always sets precedents like that.

:cheers:

[LmL]

And why don't we have a POV from the Ice side?

Why has Martin deliberately cloaked their motives in mystery?

Why has he not humanized them in any way?

Could it be because The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life"???

So that puts you in category number 1, then? I didn’t get your thoughts on this breakdown:

It’s interesting - there seems to be two general possibilities here, each with HUGELY different ramifications as far as these themes of authorization which we’ve been discussing.

1.) they are “ice demons,” “ice elementals,” “ice sidhe,” - this would mean they truly are the “others.” This scenario is consistent with the idea of of the earth producing ice elementals as some sore of auto-immune response, to either the weirwoods being chopped or the twisted dark fire magic of Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor.

2.) They started as humans. This means the “ancient Others” were created in a similar way to “Craster’s Sons,” the White Walkers, but as adults, not children, and they would have been converted by... the heart of winter? One original Ice Demon? (this doesn’t seem likely to me). This makes me think of Terry Brooks seminal fantasy series, “The Sword of Shannara.” The original bad guy is called the Warlock Lord, and he was originally a druid (the “good guy” sorcerers, though they are grey at times), but went north and discovered an anceint book of of evil magic, which was more than a book but actually a spirit of evil or some kind of very abstract “heart of darkness” / source of dark magic. His use of this book warped him into a Sauron like being. And I guess Sauron and the ring is a similar concept... so in this scenario the Ancient Others were these first people who discovered this.

[Voice]

So that puts you in category number 1, then? I didn’t get your thoughts on this breakdown:

Yes, sorry, count me for category 1 :)

[LmL]

So, you’re open to humans interbreeding with cotf, but not Others, Correct? So what do you think about the Old Nan bit about siring horrible hybrid children? And what’s you opinion about humans interbreeding with other things? Sea creatures or reptiles? How about adding a bit of dragon blood to a person with sorcery? Like, not dragons and people fucking, that’s stupid, we’re talking about somehow getting some dragon blood into a person. Merlin’s, however, could definitely be having se--- i mean raping people. Those squishers seem like the rapey type to me.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree: GRRM doesn't want to be predictable, and won't be, but he still wants his magnum opus to make sense. Per the 1993 letter, the butchery of Waymar Royce, Old Nan's stories, the Fist, dragonglass and dragonsteel, the refrain of the curse "the Others take you/him/her/it"...etc etc... the Others have always been, and remain, the true threat to Westeros.

Yup. Thus far, Old Nan has been the most reliable narrator of Northern realities.

It's mostly true, yes. But Samwell himself draws the distinction:

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

"...and the Others"

Not, "...were they wights or others?"

We've already agreed to disagree on this one wolfmaid...

You'll have to take that one up with Old Nan... or the author:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Indeed. As you always do. And as I always reply... we already know Samwell has forced the memory from his mind of whatever "the Others" were about at the Fist...

Again:

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

See?

This is why we've agreed to disagree.

We read this quote differently. It is not a fruitful debate.

And why don't we have a POV from the Ice side?

Why has Martin deliberately cloaked their motives in mystery?

Why has he not humanized them in any way?

Could it be because The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life"???

:cheers: And I like the idea of his singing improving once underwater :D

Voice that same quote you accidentally misquoted on Heresy remember...A Wight killed Maslyn,not a ww....

Sam's emotional utterance when taken in the whole context started with the horn blowing and going through what the horn meant.the Others the white walkers of the woods.The worse possible thing according to the stories,that's what he was basically saying.Don't think about the worse that could happen according to the stories.....which are the Others who they think are wws.

So are you saying everyone had amnesia and PTSD in which they can't recall what the wws were doing on the Fist.I think not Voice,we will have to disagree on this one until GRRM reveals the truth.

1.As to why not have a POV from the ice side....Who? A ww with a translator?

2.To reveal what's really going on now will defeat the purpose of the mystery.And this i think is ging to be a doozy.Blow peoples minds.

3.Keep in mind GRRM's statement that the Others are misunderstood.

4.Look at the POV GRRM is using in the synopsis.

I wouldn't say Old Nan's tales are reliable in essence they are perception wise they aren't.Her tales don't and can't tell what's going on beneath.That is speculation on her part and good story telling.

[Modesty Lannister]

4.Look at the POV GRRM is using in the synopsis.

Can you clarify this? This is interesting.

[Voice]

Great discussion and debate everyone! I'm a firm believer that such meetings of the minds, and debates, are necessary for any worth-while theory. I'm running late for a lecture, as always... I'll be back in a few hours. Don't let my absence slow you down! I'm sure it wont ;)

[wolfmaid7]

Can you clarify this? This is interesting.

I probably shouldn't have used POV but in the synopsis its almost as if his perspective is intentionally limiting so as to only give broad strokes.But the interesting thing i noted is he speaks of 3 conflicts and then switches them to threats.The latter two being Dany and her posse and then we get the below exactly as written to Ralph.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch.

Why phrase it like that and why put life in quotation? Wouldn't have been easie and i dearsay natural to say extinguish (all) life? Its almost as if he's saying or urging us not to take this reason.There is something underneath this,or there is more than this.

I don't know what do you think? It just seems weird to phrase something very simple like that.

[ummester]

:agree: GRRM doesn't want to be predictable, and won't be, but he still wants his magnum opus to make sense. Per the 1993 letter, the butchery of Waymar Royce, Old Nan's stories, the Fist, dragonglass and dragonsteel, the refrain of the curse "the Others take you/him/her/it"...etc etc... the Others have always been, and remain, the true threat to Westeros.

The last bit of that letter was redacted, the conclusion that probably showed how Dany and the 'Ice Demons' came together with the Jon, Bran and Arya threads for the finale of the story.

Besides, a threat is only ever a threat from a certain perspective. Cops are threats to drug dealers. The Others may be the protectors of Westeros, as the humans are definitely the invaders. Reference the Giants song, how they sing of freedom to roam and enjoy the land before humans started taking it from them.

extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Why phrase it like that and why put life in quotation? Wouldn't have been easie and i dearsay natural to say extinguish (all) life? Its almost as if he's saying or urging us not to take this reason.There is something underneath this,or there is more than this.

I don't know what do you think? It just seems weird to phrase something very simple like that.

I agree. We need the redacted bit to be sure.

I think by 'what we would call life', GRRM is referencing the human component of the story - human life as it occurs in ASoIaF. Not Giants, or CotF, or Old Gods, or even Wierwoods, only the 7 kingdoms and their Game of Thrones.

It is almost like the Song of Ice and Fire is the ultimate solution to the Game of Thrones. Freeze it, Freeze it all!

[Modesty Lannister]

I probably shouldn't have used POV but in the synopsis its almost as if his perspective is intentionally limiting so as to only give broad strokes.But the interesting thing i noted is he speaks of 3 conflicts and then switches them to threats.The latter two being Dany and her posse and then we get the below exactly as written to Ralph.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch.

Why phrase it like that and why put life in quotation? Wouldn't have been easie and i dearsay natural to say extinguish (all) life? Its almost as if he's saying or urging us not to take this reason.There is something underneath this,or there is more than this.

I don't know what do you think? It just seems weird to phrase something very simple like that.

Well, first of all, that was just an initial outline and the journey a writer takes from there to the final product is long and treacherous. We know that many things from this outline had been smothered in their cradles. GRRM is not Jesus nor prophet Mohammed. So, being only human, he has the right to change his mind. And he often does as we have seen from numerous examples. He says he is a writer/gardner, so only he knows were would the seeds he sow take him.

But you know all this.

That being said, what I found the most interesting about this paragraph is that GRRM makes a distinction between the Others, the never born and the undead. So, respectively, these would be white walkers and wights. He also said that the Others ride on the winds of winter. so, there are two possible solutions that I can see. Either they are literally riding on the freezing cold winds (but I'm not sure how) or they (since they can do pretty much what they want with ice) use frozen wind vortexes as a platform. That would resemble "giant ice spiders" we heard so much about.

The "life" is not so ambiguous imho. Since, Melisandre is probably undead and so are Beric, Lady Stoneheart and legions of wights, Moqorro, Victarion and who knows who by the end of this saga, my feeling George wanted to make a distinction between our perception of life and other (pun intended) forms that we may not strictly call life, but cannot classify as death either.

What I, personally, find the most interesting and consistent with GRRM's building of TWOIAF (not the book, but the world in general) is the beginning of the paragraph. "The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others ..."

That reminds me of

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Bran III, AGOT

That sentence is totally ambiguous, much like this quote. Are the Others what Bran saw and if so, what are they doing that is so terrifying he started to cry? And equally, the sentence in GRRM's outline can be separated logically in the same manner. The first part of the sentence says clearly that the greatest danger comes from the north. Yet, the continuation of the sentence is less clear. When he is mentioning the Others, is he linking them to the word "danger" or the word "north"? Are they the danger or are they in the north raising cold legions of the undead and never born? I think this ambiguity is very deliberate and consistent. We are not supposed to have a clear identification of what the real danger is. And he continues with this theme all through the books. It is this ambiguity that make some of us think the Deep Ones are the danger while others (again pun intended) believe the danger are the Others. So, there are clearly two schools of thought.

[ummester]

In that passage Bran doesn't necessarily see any other tangible being, like an other or a deep one. What he definitely sees, or feels, is cold - that's why his tears burned his cheeks. Looking deep into the heart of winter he could have seen Jon, or himself - or he could have seen that the world wrapped around and he was back at Asshai where the dragons were born, or some thing that was not a being.