The Hierarchy of the Others

[Modesty Lannister]

In that passage Bran doesn't necessarily see any other tangible being, like an other or a deep one. What he definitely sees, or feels, is cold - that's why his tears burned his cheeks. Looking deep into the heart of winter he could have seen Jon, or himself - or he could have seen that the world wrapped around and he was back at Asshai where the dragons were born, or some thing that was not a being.

All possible, which proves my point. It is totally ambiguous.

[The Dragon has three heads]

You lost me auto immune response.

...it's a curse. I think.

[LmL]

The idea is that the Others are antibodies created by the earth to fight the disease of shadow fire magic, but after they did their job, they hung around too long

[wolfmaid7]

Haha I couldn't help it....They white blood cells :)

[LmL]

Haha I couldn't help it....They white blood cells :)

Sounds silly but it might not be... at all.

[ummester]

White blood cells that are walkers

The idea that the Long Night was an extinction event type response to there being too many dragons (dragons being magically created by human sorcery, or demonic interbreeding, or something) has been floated before. The Others could just be an element of this Long Night, naturally formed to endure it and walk around preserving anything worth preserving.

But, in ASoIaF, there are only 3 dragons. Nothing like the 'There were dragons everywhere once' situation. So a new Long Night and Other population seems a bit like overkill. Also, the Others started mobilising before the dragons were born.

[LmL]

The idea would be that they were crated originally at the Long Night for a purpose, but have outlived their purpose and now linger, their enemy they were made to kill has been dead for thousands of years. That's why they need to be destroyed - they don't have a purpose anymore. Originally we needed them to destroy out of control dragons, and now we need dragons to kill out of control Others. Maybe. It's just a hypothesis, not one I have researched heavily.

[Voice]

So, you’re open to humans interbreeding with cotf, but not Others, Correct? So what do you think about the Old Nan bit about siring horrible hybrid children? And what’s you opinion about humans interbreeding with other things? Sea creatures or reptiles? How about adding a bit of dragon blood to a person with sorcery? Like, not dragons and people fucking, that’s stupid, we’re talking about somehow getting some dragon blood into a person. Merlin’s, however, could definitely be having se--- i mean raping people. Those squishers seem like the rapey type to me.

No... you must have me confused with another person I think... I've never subscribed to the interbreeding idea. We've yet to see any half-humans, half-giants, or half-cotf. Same goes for sea creatures...

Dragons and direwolves, as we've seen, form spiritual/psychological bonds with people... and vice versa. I don't see a need to magically combine their DNA to achieve this self-same result. The bond itself is enough.

That being said, though... I wouldn't feel comfortable bending over with my back to a squisher... LOL

Voice that same quote you accidentally misquoted on Heresy remember...A Wight killed Maslyn,not a ww....

Sam's emotional utterance when taken in the whole context started with the horn blowing and going through what the horn meant.the Others the white walkers of the woods.The worse possible thing according to the stories,that's what he was basically saying.Don't think about the worse that could happen according to the stories.....which are the Others who they think are wws.

So are you saying everyone had amnesia and PTSD in which they can't recall what the wws were doing on the Fist.I think not Voice,we will have to disagree on this one until GRRM reveals the truth.

1.As to why not have a POV from the ice side....Who? A ww with a translator?

2.To reveal what's really going on now will defeat the purpose of the mystery.And this i think is ging to be a doozy.Blow peoples minds.

3.Keep in mind GRRM's statement that the Others are misunderstood.

4.Look at the POV GRRM is using in the synopsis.

I wouldn't say Old Nan's tales are reliable in essence they are perception wise they aren't.Her tales don't and can't tell what's going on beneath.That is speculation on her part and good story telling.

I remember. I'm not talking about Maslyn. I'm talking about Sam's last sentence in that quote. As you well know my bay area amigo ;) we've done this dance before...

Let us remain agreed in our disagreement... I think Samwell is forcing the memory of an Other at the Fist from his mind... you don't. And that's... okay... ;)

The last bit of that letter was redacted, the conclusion that probably showed how Dany and the 'Ice Demons' came together with the Jon, Bran and Arya threads for the finale of the story.

Besides, a threat is only ever a threat from a certain perspective. Cops are threats to drug dealers. The Others may be the protectors of Westeros, as the humans are definitely the invaders. Reference the Giants song, how they sing of freedom to roam and enjoy the land before humans started taking it from them.

I agree. We need the redacted bit to be sure.

I think by 'what we would call life', GRRM is referencing the human component of the story - human life as it occurs in ASoIaF. Not Giants, or CotF, or Old Gods, or even Wierwoods, only the 7 kingdoms and their Game of Thrones.

It is almost like the Song of Ice and Fire is the ultimate solution to the Game of Thrones. Freeze it, Freeze it all!

Some of the redacted portion has been reconstructed on reddit. It's fairly predicable. It was in reference to "the second book" remember, rather than the conclusion of the series.

As far as "being sure" goes, I'll take WoW over the redacted paragraph ;)

[Voice]

Well, first of all, that was just an initial outline and the journey a writer takes from there to the final product is long and treacherous. We know that many things from this outline had been smothered in their cradles. GRRM is not Jesus nor prophet Mohammed. So, being only human, he has the right to change his mind. And he often does as we have seen from numerous examples. He says he is a writer/gardner, so only he knows were would the seeds he sow take him.

I dare say those men were only human as well... but that's a different debate ;)

That being said, what I found the most interesting about this paragraph is that GRRM makes a distinction between the Others, the never born and the undead. So, respectively, these would be white walkers and wights. He also said that the Others ride on the winds of winter. so, there are two possible solutions that I can see. Either they are literally riding on the freezing cold winds (but I'm not sure how) or they (since they can do pretty much what they want with ice) use frozen wind vortexes as a platform. That would resemble "giant ice spiders" we heard so much about.

Precisely, hence the hierarchy.

There are hints of this in the text as well. Wolfmaid will remember me making this distinction in Heresies long past. Now that this letter has emerged, it has lent further support of it.

The inhuman Others raise legions of the

neverborn = white walkers

undead = wights

The "life" is not so ambiguous imho. Since, Melisandre is probably undead and so are Beric, Lady Stoneheart and legions of wights, Moqorro, Victarion and who knows who by the end of this saga, my feeling George wanted to make a distinction between our perception of life and other (pun intended) forms that we may not strictly call life, but cannot classify as death either.

Agreed.

In fact, "life" could be so quoted as to demonstrate the distinct type of life the inhuman Others seek to destroy: life as we (the readership) know it.

The Others, must of course have a different view of what "life" should be.

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

What I, personally, find the most interesting and consistent with GRRM's building of TWOIAF (not the book, but the world in general) is the beginning of the paragraph. "The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others ..."

That reminds me of

That sentence is totally ambiguous, much like this quote. Are the Others what Bran saw and if so, what are they doing that is so terrifying he started to cry? And equally, the sentence in GRRM's outline can be separated logically in the same manner. The first part of the sentence says clearly that the greatest danger comes from the north. Yet, the continuation of the sentence is less clear. When he is mentioning the Others, is he linking them to the word "danger" or the word "north"? Are they the danger or are they in the north raising cold legions of the undead and never born? I think this ambiguity is very deliberate and consistent. We are not supposed to have a clear identification of what the real danger is. And he continues with this theme all through the books. It is this ambiguity that make some of us think the Deep Ones are the danger while others (again pun intended) believe the danger are the Others. So, there are clearly two schools of thought.

Indeed. I mentioned this quote from Bran's Vision myself as well. I'm of the mind the Others have been in the far north all along. They were not dormant, per se. Only stuck. Now that this unique variety of northern wind has blown, ushering in a long night, they have been un-stuck. Or, as GRRM says, preparing...

...prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Are they the danger or are they in the north raising cold legions of the undead and never born?

Both.

I think this ambiguity is very deliberate and consistent. We are not supposed to have a clear identification of what the real danger is. And he continues with this theme all through the books. It is this ambiguity that make some of us think the Deep Ones are the danger while others (again pun intended) believe the danger are the Others. So, there are clearly two schools of thought.

Hmm yes and no. I think he wants us to feel the impending doom. To fear it. Yet it remains a fear of something "half-forgotten." The stuff of legend. Demons of legend.

It sounds to me like your class of "Deep Ones" are my "Ancient Others." Possibly.

Or, that you are inserting an otherwise unnecessary class into northern events. Such would surely confuse casual readers, and feel odd even for many scrutinizing readers. Myself included. The Deep Ones would feel out of place.

Now if you are thinking of them as a (half-forgotten) cognate of "inhuman Others" then I'm all for that. Otherwise, it doesn't really fit.

[Voice]

In that passage Bran doesn't necessarily see any other tangible being, like an other or a deep one. What he definitely sees, or feels, is cold - that's why his tears burned his cheeks. Looking deep into the heart of winter he could have seen Jon, or himself - or he could have seen that the world wrapped around and he was back at Asshai where the dragons were born, or some thing that was not a being.

Yeah I don't know about that. Several issues.

1. Bran already saw Jon in his vision

Bran already saw Asshai in his vision

Bran already saw the dragons (red comet)

He even already noticed himself, and wondered if he'd always been so thin.

You might dig my Bran's Vision thread. Or hate it. LOL

I believe he is witnessing realtime events/people, with prophetic elements superimposed upon them. In other words, from his extremely high vantage point, he is seeing everyone in situ with his normal eyes, yet seeing deeper into their lives with his third eye (that's just been opened).

[Voice]

You lost me auto immune response.

...it's a curse. I think.

Or both...

The idea is that the Others are antibodies created by the earth to fight the disease of shadow fire magic, but after they did their job, they hung around too long

Or simply fire...

Haha I couldn't help it....They white blood cells :)

Yes! It fits. As I've said in heresy, they are antibodies...

Sounds silly but it might not be... at all.

It sure isn't. Particularly considering the author's interest in sci-fi and graphic novels. He's also played around with "hive-mind" consciousness before in A Song for Lya.

The (Ancient) Others prepare to ride down the winds of winter... they create and control:

white walkers....who can speak, crack jokes, mock, and laugh

and wights... who cannot speak, think, and are essentially a bag of meat, controlled by the above, Ancient Others

White blood cells that are walkers

Yes! Exactly! You're seeing it!

The idea that the Long Night was an extinction event type response to there being too many dragons (dragons being magically created by human sorcery, or demonic interbreeding, or something) has been floated before. The Others could just be an element of this Long Night, naturally formed to endure it and walk around preserving anything worth preserving.

No... Nope... So close, yet so far...

The idea would be that they were crated originally at the Long Night for a purpose, but have outlived their purpose and now linger, their enemy they were made to kill has been dead for thousands of years. That's why they need to be destroyed - they don't have a purpose anymore. Originally we needed them to destroy out of control dragons, and now we need dragons to kill out of control Others. Maybe. It's just a hypothesis, not one I have researched heavily.

This is exactly what I've been suggesting. They began as an autoimmune response, then were manipulated/corrupted into something militaristic... weaponized. I'd say Night's King and/or his pale woman would be the likely culprit(s).

Edit: except rather than being a response to Dragons, I believe they were a response to First Men killing and burning weirwoods....

[ummester]

But see, whatever theories we seem to establish as a purpose for the Others, they seem to have more noble purpose to me than any of the human factions in the story. Doesn't matter if they want to get rid of dragons, human invaders, or save trees - their purpose seems more in line with long term preservation of Westeros' natural world than any human element.

Not quite sure about the CotF and Giants but would be interested to know exactly what they think of the Others.

[Voice]

But see, whatever theories we seem to establish as a purpose for the Others, they seem to have more noble purpose to me than any of the human factions in the story. Doesn't matter if they want to get rid of dragons, human invaders, or save trees - their purpose seems more in line with long term preservation of Westeros' natural world than any human element.

Not quite sure about the CotF and Giants but would be interested to know exactly what they think of the Others.

Agreed. Thus far, we've seen far greater horrors at the hands of Men.

And I'm not opposed to their motivations being just. But rather than preserving everything worth preserving, they are killing everything and everyone, and raising undead legions. Horses, bears, people... makes no matter. According to Gilly, they even take livestock in lieu of babies.

They spare no one.

I suppose if you prefer unnatural forms of life to natural ones, the Others are just what the doctor ordered. But from my perspective, natural life is meant to exist, and unnatural life isn't.

[ummester]

Agreed. Thus far, we've seen far greater horrors at the hands of Men.

And I'm not opposed to their motivations being just. But rather than preserving everything worth preserving, they are killing everything and everyone, and raising undead legions. Horses, bears, people... makes no matter. According to Gilly, they even take livestock in lieu of babies.

They spare no one.

I suppose if you prefer unnatural forms of life to natural ones, the Others are just what the doctor ordered. But from my perspective, natural life is meant to exist, and unnatural life isn't.

It's a fantasy saga - what is natural and what isn't in fantasy?

In a way, GRRM is in line with one of the oldest fantasy tropes every - magical elements represent natural wonders that give way to the advance of human reason and technology. Dany's dragons, Bloodraven, Bran, The Others, the Giants, the CotF - they may all come together in a last push, the last ditch effort of some greater, magical world, that used to exist before the spread of humans, to save itself. And that is where the bittersweet will come in - like oh so many fantasy stories suggest - magic is not meant for people, we left the garden of Eden, took the fire from Prometheus and chopped down all the trees. All that is left for us is an environment to exploit, as our hearts remain in conflict with themselves.

[Voice]

I completely agree. But even though it is fantasy, there are clear delineations between natural and unnatural forms of life.

A man and woman having sex to create a child is clearly natural.

A woman having sex with a man to give birth to his shadow, that then kills his brother, is unnatural.

A man dying and staying dead is natural.

Harvesting new born children to raise legions of the neverborn and undead is clearly unnatural.

Harvesting crops to feed the people during winter is clearly natural.

Riding a living horse is natural.

Riding a dead reanimated horse is unnatural.

A fire that consumes wood, or even a corpse, is natural.

A fire that unburns a woman, yet burns another, while burning her husband and hatching three dragons from stone eggs, is unnatural.

A woman that dies from having her throat slit is a natural event.

A woman that comes back to life after dying from having her throat slit is an unnatural event.

[Modesty Lannister]

I dare say those men were only human as well... but that's a different debate ;)

Indeed it is and I wouldn't go there ever. But, you must agree GRRM is too many times treated like them. The man changes his mind all the time. He is entitled to it.

Both.

Hmm yes and no. I think he wants us to feel the impending doom. To fear it. Yet it remains a fear of something "half-forgotten." The stuff of legend. Demons of legend.

It sounds to me like your class of "Deep Ones" are my "Ancient Others." Possibly.

Or, that you are inserting an otherwise unnecessary class into northern events. Such would surely confuse casual readers, and feel odd even for many scrutinizing readers. Myself included. The Deep Ones would feel out of place.

Now if you are thinking of them as a (half-forgotten) cognate of "inhuman Others" then I'm all for that. Otherwise, it doesn't really fit.

You say "both" so confidently, but it is written in the way it is written to leave an open space for ambiguity. Otherwise, it would not be written that way. So, I wouldn't be so confident about "both".

Deep Ones are mentioned in the books.

An even more fanciful possibility was put forth a century ago by Maester Theron. Born a bastard on the Iron Islands, Theron noted a certain likeness between the black stone of the ancient fortress and that of the Seastone Chair, the high seat of House Greyjoy of Pyke, whose origins are similarly ancient and mysterious. Theron's rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn.

TWOIAF - The Reach: Oldtown

I see no thematic, mythological nor logical connection between the Deep ones and the Others. In fact, I see the Others as a very effective army to fight the Deep Ones. The Deep Ones are connected to black stones, interbreeding, sea - dark magic. And there are traces of them all over the world. And wherever we see their traces, it is highly disturbing. The Ironborn may not be interbred, but they are highly disturbing as well. (When I post my theory, this will be explained at length). Your point about Ancient Others is an odd construct. First of all, there is no mention of such a thing. Second of all, the Others are mentioned as the possible indigenous inhabitants of Westeros (see my previous posts, not just my reply to Wolfmaid7), so they ARE ancient per se. So, I am not introducing anything new. I am just following the text. Ancient Others are introduction of something new, textually unsupported and unnecessary.

The Deep Ones also fit George's description from the outline - half-forgotten demons. So, in short (before I answer with the whole theory), the Deep Ones (who live underground and under the sea) are the ones who live in darkness and who would favour the LN. Their followers all around Planetos either already live in darkness (many examples) or they practice dark magic or do dark deeds (The Ironborn). So, the only real force that can fight in the dark are the Others. Men do not stand a chance. And that fits a description of the previous LN.

The Deep Ones are already coming from the sea at Hardhome. Patchface is prophesying their arrival all the time. Plus, I do believe they are linked to greyscale, which is about to emerge on the Wall (a girl in grey riding a horse following the streams and a lake). I also believe that is the most effective way they use to kill humans en masse. And the fact that Val considers Shireen dead proves that wildlings are quite aware of greyscale and had to deal with it before.

And, back to the part of the NW oath that is somehow brushed over while every word in other passages is analysed to the bone. "We are the watchers on the walls". So where is another wall? In real life there is Hadrian's wall, but then there is Antonine's wall (www.antoninewall.org) further north. I will explain this further in my theory, but I believe the Others are the second NW sitting on the very border of the eternal night of the north, which is the perfect hideout for the Deep Ones.

The very word "otherness" (explained in one of my previous posts) that GRRM has to be familiar with, because it was a vivid part of the US discourse he would have been part of in the 1970s, suggests that the Others cannot be evil. GRRM said they have been misunderstood, which is actually a confirmation that they are personification of "otherness". The whole ASOIAF is a story about "the others", demonised and misunderstood people and concepts - bastards, dwarfs and broken things. Also, it is a saga about second sons who are "raised to follow" (Jon, Ned, Ramsey, Tyrion, Sandor, Oberyn, Viserys, Stannis, Bran etc). So, it is a story of unexpected and unlikely rulers whose actions are also misunderstood and often demonised.

[Voice]

Speaking of overly confident statements... ;)

[Modesty Lannister]

Speaking of overly confident statements... ;)

Are you seriously replying in this manner?!

[ummester]

I completely agree. But even though it is fantasy, there are clear delineations between natural and unnatural forms of life.

A man and woman having sex to create a child is clearly natural.

A woman having sex with a man to give birth to his shadow, that then kills his brother, is unnatural.

A man dying and staying dead is natural.

Harvesting new born children to raise legions of the neverborn and undead is clearly unnatural.

Harvesting crops to feed the people during winter is clearly natural.

Riding a living horse is natural.

Riding a dead reanimated horse is unnatural.

A fire that consumes wood, or even a corpse, is natural.

A fire that unburns a woman, yet burns another, while burning her husband and hatching three dragons from stone eggs, is unnatural.

A woman that dies from having her throat slit is a natural event.

A woman that comes back to life after dying from having her throat slit is an unnatural event.

I would agree with the natural/unnatural on your list, from my human perspective, but also think this kind of division may be exactly the 'what we would call life' distinction.

[Voice]

Are you seriously replying in this manner?!

No it's too late for "serious" replies, brain is sleepy... hence the wink ;)

But it is a little ironic huh, to reply to my overly confident statement with overly confident statements.