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The Hierarchy of the Others


Voice

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I would agree with the natural/unnatural on your list, from my human perspective, but also think this kind of division may be exactly the 'what we would call life' distinction.

Indeed. Seems like the Others seek to eradicate 'what we would call' natural life, and supplant it with unnatural, inhuman life.

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No it's too late for "serious" replies, brain is sleepy... hence the wink ;)

But it is a little ironic huh, to reply to my overly confident statement with overly confident statements.

I do not see anything in what I just proposed as "overly confident". In order to develop a theory about the endgame, you have to incorporate all or most of the elements George introduces into the story. Why would a writer introduce elements he would not use?

All theories about the Others being "evil" would fit into a Disney film perfectly. But, this is GRRM. In his work, nothing is happening without a motive. And the Others have been sitting in the far north for thousands of years. Why would they suddenly go wild and "kill everyone" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c)? Where is the motive? And how come the wildlings are still standing? So, imho the prime weakness in every theory about the Others is their utter lack of motive.

As for your statement, I think you grossly misinterpreted what I said and, more importantly, why I said it. You invited me to comment on your theory. So, it is a big surprise to see your reaction to comments you invited.

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Indeed it is and I wouldn't go there ever. But, you must agree GRRM is too many times treated like them. The man changes his mind all the time. He is entitled to it.

You say "both" so confidently, but it is written in the way it is written to leave an open space for ambiguity. Otherwise, it would not be written that way. So, I wouldn't be so confident about "both".

Deep Ones are mentioned in the books.

I see no thematic, mythological nor logical connection between the Deep ones and the Others. In fact, I see the Others as a very effective army to fight the Deep Ones. The Deep Ones are connected to black stones, interbreeding, sea - dark magic. And there are traces of them all over the world. And wherever we see their traces, it is highly disturbing. The Ironborn may not be interbred, but they are highly disturbing as well. (When I post my theory, this will be explained at length). Your point about Ancient Others is an odd construct. First of all, there is no mention of such a thing. Second of all, the Others are mentioned as the possible indigenous inhabitants of Westeros (see my previous posts, not just my reply to Wolfmaid7), so they ARE ancient per se. So, I am not introducing anything new. I am just following the text. Ancient Others are introduction of something new, textually unsupported and unnecessary.

If ancient Others are the ones riding Ice Spiders, they were mentioned in one of the first chapters. Making up a new name like "ancient Others" for classification purposes does t change that. In the same way, they never say "Great Empire of the Dawn" in the series proper, but we've known about them since book one via Dany's dream, and later from the clues regarding the Dayne family.

I agree the concept of Deep Ones was introduced in the books, beginning with AFFC if I am not mistaken - Aeron's monologue about the Iron isles and Dick Crabb's Squishers monologue. But they don't come close to the presence of the Others as a menace. I myself don't expect the Deep Ones to play anything other than a tangential role, much like a lot of the deep backstory stuff that I am uncovering. It's important, as far as understanding where water magic and sea creature interbreeding is concerned, but it's hard to see them as a greater threat than the Others, at least currently. I could buy them as a huge threat in the past, but I cannot see them usurping the Others as chief bad guy. But who knows - maybe I'm wrong, I'll keep an open mind, as I said, until I see your theory. I am really interested in the Deep Ones and am curious how they fit in to all this - but I haven't had any breakthrough insights about them as I have had about the ancient dragonlords.

But you haven't noticed all the Others symbolism around the drowned men and Ironborn?? Really? There's a good bit of it - I'll have to collect it and send it to you.

The Deep Ones also fit George's description from the outline - half-forgotten demons. So, in short (before I answer with the whole theory), the Deep Ones (who live underground and under the sea) are the ones who live in darkness and who would favour the LN. Their followers all around Planetos either already live in darkness (many examples) or they practice dark magic or do dark deeds (The Ironborn). So, the only real force that can fight in the dark are the Others. Men do not stand a chance. And that fits a description of the previous LN.

I belive you are undermining your own case here. If the Deep Ones love the dark, just like the Others, that would suggest they are allies, not enemies. And again, I've found some evidence showing this to be the case. You're saying the Deep Ones also meet the "big bad enemy" criteria that George used to describe the Others - that suggests they would make good allies, not enemies.

The Deep Ones are already coming from the sea at Hardhome. Patchface is prophesying their arrival all the time. Plus, I do believe they are linked to greyscale, which is about to emerge on the Wall (a girl in grey riding a horse following the streams and a lake). I also believe that is the most effective way they use to kill humans en masse. And the fact that Val considers Shireen dead proves that wildlings are quite aware of greyscale and had to deal with it before.

We certainly do not know that there are Deep Ones at Hardhome - there may be, but that's highly interpretative, not fact. "Dead things in the water" suggest wights - we've never heard the Deep Ones described as dead or undead.

I'm curious to see your link between greyscale and the Deep ones. I've seen greyscale linked to dragons too, but I didn't see any supporting evidence. I get Garin's curse and the Shrouded Lord, but I don't see any Deep One fingerprints on the Rhoynar. They seem to worship river gods, not sea gods. I don't think rivers and streams are Deep One territory... Not DEEP enough, you know? They are ocean entities - saltwater, not fresh.

And, back to the part of the NW oath that is somehow brushed over while every word in other passages is analysed to the bone. "We are the watchers on the walls". So where is another wall? In real life there is Hadrian's wall, but then there is Antonine's wall (www.antoninewall.org) further north. I will explain this further in my theory, but I believe the Others are the second NW sitting on the very border of the eternal night of the north, which is the perfect hideout for the Deep Ones.

I was following you until you put the Deep Ones in the heart of winter. I really, really hope you have some evidence for that - it seems like a really strange idea. And yes, that's coming from me. I'm into strange ideas, but they do need to make sense - again I am waiting to see the theory but Deep Ones in the far north ON LAND seems like a hard sell.

Personally I think dead things in the water mean wighted sea creatures, or even wighted deep ones, if that is possible. Those black tailed, blue eyed mermaids in the Shivering Sea would be wighted mermaids, it seems clear, so it does seem possible. At least we have an example of this phenomena in TWOAIF.

The very word "otherness" (explained in one of my previous posts) that GRRM has to be familiar with, because it was a vivid part of the US discourse he would have been part of in the 1970s, suggests that the Others cannot be evil. GRRM said they have been misunderstood, which is actually a confirmation that they are personification of "otherness". The whole ASOIAF is a story about "the others", demonised and misunderstood people and concepts - bastards, dwarfs and broken things. Also, it is a saga about second sons who are "raised to follow" (Jon, Ned, Ramsey, Tyrion, Sandor, Oberyn, Viserys, Stannis, Bran etc). So, it is a story of unexpected and unlikely rulers whose actions are also misunderstood and often demonised.

I think we are all open to this idea, but there are many ways they can be misunderstood, so I disagree with your blanket statement of "this suggests that the Others cannot be evil." George described them as "demons" in his letter, the greatest threat to life as we know if (agreeing with VotFM's definition of natural and unnatural). But you say your interpretation of the theme of the books means they cannot be evil? George called them demons, demons are evil. They must be both misunderstood and demons who hate the living. I think both are possible. CLEARLY, since we don't understand the Others and are all debating wildly different ideas.
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If ancient Others are the ones riding Ice Spiders, they were mentioned in one of the first chapters. Making up a new name like "ancient Others" for classification purposes does t change that. In the same way, they never say "Great Empire of the Dawn" in the series proper, but we've known about them since book one via Dany's dream, and later from the clues regarding the Dayne family.

I think you missed my point here. Just go back to what I was replying to.

I agree the concept of Deep Ones was introduced in the books, beginning with AFFC if I am not mistaken - Aeron's monologue about the Iron isles and Dick Crabb's Squishers monologue. But they don't come close to the presence of the Others as a menace. I myself don't expect the Deep Ones to play anything other than a tangential role, much like a lot of the deep backstory stuff that I am uncovering. It's important, as far as understanding where water magic and sea creature interbreeding is concerned, but it's hard to see them as a greater threat than the Others, at least currently. I could buy them as a huge threat in the past, but I cannot see them usurping the Others as chief bad guy. But who knows - maybe I'm wrong, I'll keep an open mind, as I said, until I see your theory. I am really interested in the Deep Ones and am curious how they fit in to all this - but I haven't had any breakthrough insights about them as I have had about the ancient dragonlords.

So, let's wait for that moment then.

But you haven't noticed all the Others symbolism around the drowned men and Ironborn?? Really? There's a good bit of it - I'll have to collect it and send it to you.

Oh, I noticed. But, as I have pointed out, many groups can fit into the definition of otherness. However, the Ironborn have destruction on the forefront of THEIR philosophy. "We do not sow". That is not an outside construct or opinion. That is internal credo. See the difference with "all bastards are trecherous"? That is a true definition of "otherness". The judgment is coming from an outside group. In case of the Ironborn, the outside group thinks the same thing about them as the Ironborn themselves think of themselves. The difference is that the Ironborn are proud of it. It would be as if bastards were proud to be trecherous.

I belive you are undermining your own case here. If the Deep Ones love the dark, just like the Others, that would suggest they are allies, not enemies. And again, I've found some evidence showing this to be the case. You're saying the Deep Ones also meet the "big bad enemy" criteria that George used to describe the Others - that suggests they would make good allies, not enemies.

True. I am not going to dispute that without the whole theory behind me.

We certainly do not know that there are Deep Ones at Hardhome - there may be, but that's highly interpretative, not fact. "Dead things in the water" suggest wights - we've never heard the Deep Ones described as dead or undead.

Well, we certainly do not know they are wights either. And where would the Others be positioned to control something under water? They are so cold that the cold they emanate shatters steel. So, if they are controlling the wights placed under water through ice magic wouldn't the water around Hardhome freeze?

I'm curious to see your link between greyscale and the Deep ones. I've seen greyscale linked to dragons too, but I didn't see any supporting evidence. I get Garin's curse and the Shrouded Lord, but I don't see any Deep One fingerprints on the Rhoynar. They seem to worship river gods, not sea gods. I don't think rivers and streams are Deep One territory... Not DEEP enough, you know? They are ocean entities - saltwater, not fresh.

LmL, lol. Your sarcasm must fail here, because you failed to read or remember the quote I provided up the thread. And that quote says that the Deep ones may be builders of the black stone construction in Oldtown. I am just using the expression the maester who coined the theory used. It does not mean that the Deep Ones litterarly or exclusively live deep under the sea. So, let me remind you since you may have missed that post and since this is not a comprehensive theory you are responding to, but my reply to another poster's comment, it would be advisible to read through the whole debate (a couple of posts) before commenting. Some things tend to get out of the context if you comment to my reply without seeing the origin of the debate (makes us go around in circes).

An even more fanciful possibility was put forth a century ago by Maester Theron. Born a bastard on the Iron Islands, Theron noted a certain likeness between the black stone of the ancient fortress and that of the Seastone Chair, the high seat of House Greyjoy of Pyke, whose origins are similarly ancient and mysterious. Theron's rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn.

TWOIAF - The Reach: Oldtown

I was following you until you put the Deep Ones in the heart of winter. I really, really hope you have some evidence for that - it seems like a really strange idea. And yes, that's coming from me. I'm into strange ideas, but they do need to make sense - again I am waiting to see the theory but Deep Ones in the far north ON LAND seems like a hard sell.

Again, the Deep Ones do not necessarily live under water. They live in the darkness be it underground, in the maze (Oldtown), underwater etc. The only way they can get overground is to usher a LN. The Others, as far as we can see, live overground and are not linked to mysterious black stone objects. Yes, you can say a LN suits them as well. So, let me make a comparison here. For thousands of years, wildlings lived beyond the Wall and were considered the enemy. Each time they tried to go south, they were pushed back. So, they were the enemy of 7 kingdoms in the begining of AGOT. Then Mance comes, unifies the clans. Jon meets him, starts living with the wildlings and, as Mance, realises they are the just people fighting to survive. When Mance and Jon meet again near the Wall a great shift starts and wildings are turned from an enemy into an ally. I suspect Jon will do the same with the Others. Why? Because had the Others really been a threat to humanity, all human life north of the Wall would have been whipped out ages ago. Every action has to have a motive. What motive do Others have now that they didn't have during the previous LN? Yet, wildlings not only survived living beyond the Wall, but giants and CotF survived. And these two races did not survive men. Interesting.

Personally I think dead things in the water mean wighted sea creatures, or even wighted deep ones, if that is possible. Those black tailed, blue eyed mermaids in the Shivering Sea would be wighted mermaids, it seems clear, so it does seem possible. At least we have an example of this phenomena in TWOAIF.

I think we are all open to this idea, but there are many ways they can be misunderstood, so I disagree with your blanket statement of "this suggests that the Others cannot be evil." George described them as "demons" in his letter, the greatest threat to life as we know if (agreeing with VotFM's definition of natural and unnatural). But you say your interpretation of the theme of the books means they cannot be evil? George called them demons, demons are evil. They must be both misunderstood and demons who hate the living. I think both are possible. CLEARLY, since we don't understand the Others and are all debating wildly different ideas.

You probably missed that part of my discussion. So, I will repeat it.

What I, personally, find the most interesting and consistent with GRRM's building of TWOIAF (not the book, but the world in general) is the beginning of the paragraph. "The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others ..."

That reminds me of

Quote

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Bran III, AGOT

That sentence is totally ambiguous, much like this quote. Are the Others what Bran saw and if so, what are they doing that is so terrifying he started to cry? And equally, the sentence in GRRM's outline can be separated logically in the same manner. The first part of the sentence says clearly that the greatest danger comes from the north. Yet, the continuation of the sentence is less clear. When he is mentioning the Others, is he linking them to the word "danger" or the word "north"? Are they the danger or are they in the north raising cold legions of the undead and never born? I think this ambiguity is very deliberate and consistent. We are not supposed to have a clear identification of what the real danger is. And he continues with this theme all through the books. It is this ambiguity that make some of us think the Deep Ones are the danger while others (again pun intended) believe the danger are the Others. So, there are clearly two schools of thought.

ETA: The idea that danger is coming under the sea was introduced fairly early on with introduction of Patchface (parallel to Melisandre and her R'hllor). Melisandre is talking about the Great Other. The Ironborn are talking about the Drowned God (what is dead may never die). These are all themes introduced fairly early on in the books.

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I totally disagree that there is any ambiguity there. Totally. The greatest threat comes from the North, and is the Others. Bran saw the heart of winter and cried out... All of this has to do with Others and Ice magic, nothing about Deep Ones or black stone or underwater anything. Trying to split hairs in this 93 letter to create room for Deep Ones seems a very big stretch to me. If anything, I think George has greatly expanded on his original ideas... I see Deep Ones popping up in book 4 and not before, so it seems like it may be an idea which came in later, although we can't know of course. Your idea that the Deep Ones do anything out of water is hypothetical. I don't think they built Lorath at all - we are told that it was the Deep Ones (Merlings, Selkies = Deep Ones) who killed the Mazemakers (although of course that could be wrong). It's possible the Deep Ones could be capable of building stone structures, but certainly not proven, or anywhere close to it.

And for the rest of your comments, I did read everything before, and understand what you are referring to. I read every page of this thread. I stand by my comments. But we should probably let the whole Deep Ones thing lie until you post your theory, since VotFM doesn't really seem to have anything about them in his theory.

Edit: patch face visions could be a Deep One reference, I'll grant you that

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I think we have to recall that George has expanded his story quite a bit.There were no Red Priests or in-depth fire motif then.As it stands now there seems a clash of elements is coming.Therefore, the Others being the "greatest" threat no longer applies but I think it has been expanded to include those seek to bring about an endless Summer and those if we ever get a POV from the other faction.

When reading the 93 letter it is important to ask can you find said elements in the current story and remember it is broad strokes.The fact that the wws didn't raise the Wights for instance still remained in the story, so was the fact that imo the fact that the Greenseers are the Others.

And this is where I disagree with Voice, I don't believe and their are hints to that that the Others are "demons" that too is a misidentification. GRRM used language that the characters themselves used, its artistic language.

As I told Voice the cold wind from the North per the letter has already come down.wws are already on the move and the dead walk.The Others and the Wind come together because that's what they are using.

We have a snow storm over winter fell, snow in the riverlands.We don't know if the ice spiders described are really ice spiders.

Lastly keep in mind and even though they are wrong those that saw wws thought they were the Others. This I think is what's being missed.what does that say?

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I do not see anything in what I just proposed as "overly confident". In order to develop a theory about the endgame, you have to incorporate all or most of the elements George introduces into the story. Why would a writer introduce elements he would not use?

All theories about the Others being "evil" would fit into a Disney film perfectly. But, this is GRRM. In his work, nothing is happening without a motive. And the Others have been sitting in the far north for thousands of years. Why would they suddenly go wild and "kill everyone" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c)? Where is the motive? And how come the wildlings are still standing? So, imho the prime weakness in every theory about the Others is their utter lack of motive.

As for your statement, I think you grossly misinterpreted what I said and, more importantly, why I said it. You invited me to comment on your theory. So, it is a big surprise to see your reaction to comments you invited.

'Tis called "world building." And, though our author is a great usurper of tropes...yadda, yadda, yadda... he is still writing an epically long story that has a beginning, middle, and end. The tale will make sense. He wants it to make sense. Deep Ones appearing out of no where would not make sense. The entire series has been building up to a clash with the Others (Will Prologue, Old Nan's tales, the Annals, the Fist, V6 Prologue). Not, with all due respect, the Deep Ones.... as either friends or foes.

Deep Ones provide one more historical element that support the idea of supernatural beings existing on Planetos in ancient days. Now that I search for them, they do not even appear in the five main books. They don't appear in the D&E novellas, The Rogue Prince, or the TPatQ.

Deep Ones are mentioned in one sentence of the World Book. One.

To build them up from a single sentence in addendum material, into the impending climax of the series, is, well, overly confident...

So, they will be fine with Melisandre since she is not human anymore?

While I have wondered if R'llhor is "the Great Other," which would make her an ally of the Others, I'm not sold on her being "not human." She is more of a corrupted human in my mind.

I think we have to recall that George has expanded his story quite a bit.There were no Red Priests or in-depth fire motif then.As it stands now there seems a clash of elements is coming.Therefore, the Others being the "greatest" threat no longer applies but I think it has been expanded to include those seek to bring about an endless Summer and those if we ever get a POV from the other faction.

When reading the 93 letter it is important to ask can you find said elements in the current story and remember it is broad strokes.The fact that the wws didn't raise the Wights for instance still remained in the story, so was the fact that imo the fact that the Greenseers are the Others.

And this is where I disagree with Voice, I don't believe and their are hints to that that the Others are "demons" that too is a misidentification. GRRM used language that the characters themselves used, its artistic language.

As I told Voice the cold wind from the North per the letter has already come down.wws are already on the move and the dead walk.The Others and the Wind come together because that's what they are using.

We have a snow storm over winter fell, snow in the riverlands.We don't know if the ice spiders described are really ice spiders.

Lastly keep in mind and even though they are wrong those that saw wws thought they were the Others. This I think is what's being missed.what does that say?

No one is forgetting that. But, what some are proposing is not that GRRM has "expanded" his story, but fundamentally altered it.

Long before the letter was made public folks had a notion that the Others posed the true threat to Westeros. Now that the letter has been made public, and it states the Others pose the true threat to Westeros, that notion is confirmed. Of course, twists and turns may happen along the way, but the scenario in which it is only "the wind" creating wights and wight walkers, or a "begrudged greenseer" is not supported by the text, nor the letter.

What is supported by the text, and the letter, is that the ancient, half-forgotten, demons out of legend, now known as "the Others," raise legions of the neverborn and undead, now known as "white walkers" and "wights." The published text of the five main novels supports this, as well as their motive, to eradicate life as we know it.

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'Tis called "world building." And, though our author is a great usurper of tropes...yadda, yadda, yadda... he is still writing an epically long story that has a beginning, middle, and end. The tale will make sense. He wants it to make sense. Deep Ones appearing out of no where would not make sense. The entire series has been building up to a clash with the Others (Will Prologue, Old Nan's tales, the Annals, the Fist, V6 Prologue). Not, with all due respect, the Deep Ones.... as either friends or foes.

Deep Ones provide one more historical element that support the idea of supernatural beings existing on Planetos in ancient days. Now that I search for them, they do not even appear in the five main books. They don't appear in the D&E novellas, The Rogue Prince, or the TPatQ.

Deep Ones are mentioned in one sentence of the World Book. One.

To build them up from a single sentence in addendum material, into the impending climax of the series, is, well, overly confident...

While I have wondered if R'llhor is "the Great Other," which would make her an ally of the Others, I'm not sold on her being "not human." She is more of a corrupted human in my mind.

No one is forgetting that. But, what some are proposing is not that GRRM has "expanded" his story, but fundamentally altered it.

Long before the letter was made public folks had a notion that the Others posed the true threat to Westeros. Now that the letter has been made public, and it states the Others pose the true threat to Westeros, that notion is confirmed. Of course, twists and turns may happen along the way, but the scenario in which it is only "the wind" creating wights and wight walkers, or a "begrudged greenseer" is not supported by the text, nor the letter.

What is supported by the text, and the letter, is that the ancient, half-forgotten, demons out of legend, now known as "the Others," raise legions of the neverborn and undead, now known as "white walkers" and "wights." The published text of the five main novels supports this, as well as their motive, to eradicate life as we know it.

I disagree Voice, unless some other creature besides skinchangers and or Greenseer knows how to enthrall in said way as we see with the Wights then it is 100% supported by the text.Everything with regards to the Wights point to them.

And the story hasn't been altered its grown in the telling.I also agree with Modesty 100% in looking at the term Others which is still a problematic term.It doesn't tell us what the Others are.

Even though the text uses the term demons and GRRM letter says demons the clues and hints say they are not demons.He's given the broad strokes of the story no path. What is true and what is not.It baffled me at one time how people could believe the wws were raising the dead.It was obvious to me they weren't.

Same thing with regards to who the Others are, their identity and they are not demons.They Greenseers hiding behind that term.It gives them anonymity.

But this is something GRRM will confirm or not in due time.Remember they were, plentiful, could enthrall anything that walks , flies or swim. Csn call up the wind or a flock of birds etc. The same power same being operating under a name given to them out of ignorance and amnesia.

Again we will have to wait and see if this to is right.

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Greenseers are Others? Wait what now? That's counterintuitive. The cotf are the earth element, interested in balancing the other magical forces to preserve life. The Others seem to be ice made flesh, complete with milkglass bones that melt, while the dragons are fire made flesh. I can see that the cotf use one magic against another to balance things out, but the greenseers AS Others seems counterintuitive.

After having just listened to the Mel chapter, it's clear she is far from human. She doesn't need to eat, for sure, and it seems she doesn't need to sleep either. Of course there's the black blood. But not needing to eat means not very human like.

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'Tis called "world building." And, though our author is a great usurper of tropes...yadda, yadda, yadda... he is still writing an epically long story that has a beginning, middle, and end. The tale will make sense. He wants it to make sense. Deep Ones appearing out of no where would not make sense. The entire series has been building up to a clash with the Others (Will Prologue, Old Nan's tales, the Annals, the Fist, V6 Prologue). Not, with all due respect, the Deep Ones.... as either friends or foes.

I firmly disagree that the Deep Ones have been introduced in one sentence. I have already addressed this in my response to LmL, but let me repeat myself. The introduction of Patchface and the Ironborn culture opened the possibility of the real threat coming out of the water. The Deep Ones is just a name given to that threat in TWOIAF. That being said, at this stage in the novels, the Others are men's enemies. But, up until the last novel so were the wildlings and they are not anymore. And imho that is the key to the story. Converting enemies to allies, because all of them will have to fight united what is coming.

Deep Ones provide one more historical element that support the idea of supernatural beings existing on Planetos in ancient days. Now that I search for them, they do not even appear in the five main books. They don't appear in the D&E novellas, The Rogue Prince, or the TPatQ.
Deep Ones are mentioned in one sentence of the World Book. One.

You would be surprised how many passages in the books refer to the threat from the sea. And imho no one is creepier than poor Patchface. So, if that is how one looks like if he survives the Deep Ones then give me Others any day.

To build them up from a single sentence in addendum material, into the impending climax of the series, is, well, overly confident...

It's overly confident to miss a whole aspect of the books starting from Patchface, continuing with the Ironborn, Crabs etc. and then claim they just don't exist.

While I have wondered if R'llhor is "the Great Other," which would make her an ally of the Others, I'm not sold on her being "not human." She is more of a corrupted human in my mind.

Well, humans have to eat and drink and they do not have smoking blood running down their skin. Did you see any humans that resemble that description?

No one is forgetting that. But, what some are proposing is not that GRRM has "expanded" his story, but fundamentally altered it.

But it is obvious from that draft that it was fundamentally altered. Or are you expecting Arya/Jon incest?

Long before the letter was made public folks had a notion that the Others posed the true threat to Westeros. Now that the letter has been made public, and it states the Others pose the true threat to Westeros, that notion is confirmed. Of course, twists and turns may happen along the way, but the scenario in which it is only "the wind" creating wights and wight walkers, or a "begrudged greenseer" is not supported by the text, nor the letter.

What is supported by the text, and the letter, is that the ancient, half-forgotten, demons out of legend, now known as "the Others," raise legions of the neverborn and undead, now known as "white walkers" and "wights." The published text of the five main novels supports this, as well as their motive, to eradicate life as we know it.

What is confirmed is that half-forgotten demons are a threat. If even Robert Baratheon is using a phrase "Others take my wife", I wouldn't say the Others are forgotten.

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Although i do disagree with much of what Modesty L just said, I do think it’s fair to point out that the NAME of something isn’t really that important. We only go the name “deep ones” in TWOIAF, just as we only go the name “Great Empire of the Dawn” in TWOAIF, but there have been many references to aquatic humanoid beings that interbred with people just as there has been many clues and references to dragonlords that existed before Valyria, connected to Asshai.

And... just as the term “Ancient Others” hasn’t been used, and just as we have never actually SEEN Ice Spiders or possibly Ancient Others if VotFM’s premise is correct, which I think it probably is. It doesn’t really matter what we call them - ancient Others, White Walkers, Others - we know there is a level of Other invasion that we haven’t seen yet.

Just wanted to make that point - the specific name isn’t the important thing.

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I disagree Voice, unless some other creature besides skinchangers and or Greenseer knows how to enthrall in said way as we see with the Wights then it is 100% supported by the text.Everything with regards to the Wights point to them.

And the story hasn't been altered its grown in the telling.I also agree with Modesty 100% in looking at the term Others which is still a problematic term.It doesn't tell us what the Others are.

Yes! "...some other creature"

Some. Other. Creature. You're almost there!

We need not look far for "some other creature" wolfmaid. They're called the Others.

Please, when has a greenseer ever demonstrated the ability to animate a corpse?

When has a greenseer ever manipulated ice in any fashion?

When has a greenseer ever made a creature's eyes glow...in any color?

Nothing at all in the text connects wights to greenseers.

Even though the text uses the term demons and GRRM letter says demons the clues and hints say they are not demons.

This sentence makes no sense... "Even though the text uses the term demons . . . the letter says demons . . ." What are these "clues and hints" that suggest otherwise exactly? Because apparently "the text uses the term demons" and "GRRM letter says demons."

He's given the broad strokes of the story no path. What is true and what is not.It baffled me at one time how people could believe the wws were raising the dead.It was obvious to me they weren't.

Same thing with regards to who the Others are, their identity and they are not demons.They Greenseers hiding behind that term.It gives them anonymity.

What? Where are they hiding? What passage suggests this?

Seriously though, there's nothing to suggest any greenseer activity behind wights or white walkers. We're told, quite explicitly, in both the book and letter that the Others are raising them...

Book:

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Letter:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

But this is something GRRM will confirm or not in due time.Remember they were, plentiful, could enthrall anything that walks , flies or swim. Csn call up the wind or a flock of birds etc. The same power same being operating under a name given to them out of ignorance and amnesia.

Again we will have to wait and see if this to is right.

See? Right there. You just listed living beings. The Others are raising legions of the undead. We've nothing to connect wights to greenseers, nor have we anything to suggest that greenseers can animate corpses.

Greenseers are Others? Wait what now? That's counterintuitive. The cotf are the earth element, interested in balancing the other magical forces to preserve life. The Others seem to be ice made flesh, complete with milkglass bones that melt, while the dragons are fire made flesh. I can see that the cotf use one magic against another to balance things out, but the greenseers AS Others seems counterintuitive.

After having just listened to the Mel chapter, it's clear she is far from human. She doesn't need to eat, for sure, and it seems she doesn't need to sleep either. Of course there's the black blood. But not needing to eat means not very human like.

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Greenseers are Others? Wait what now? That's counterintuitive. The cotf are the earth element, interested in balancing the other magical forces to preserve life. The Others seem to be ice made flesh, complete with milkglass bones that melt, while the dragons are fire made flesh. I can see that the cotf use one magic against another to balance things out, but the greenseers AS Others seems counterintuitive.

After having just listened to the Mel chapter, it's clear she is far from human. She doesn't need to eat, for sure, and it seems she doesn't need to sleep either. Of course there's the black blood. But not needing to eat means not very human like.

That is a misconception Greenseers are not only associated with earth.According to the world book they could be found with children from the lands of always winter to the summer isles.

Though I think "green"seer is a label for the type of being BR et al. are.

But if we look beyond label at the clues and what GRRM is telling us it is right there plain as day.What is tge difference between enthralling dead animals, birds and people to enthralling ones that are alive. Non except one is using dead bodies while the other is live ones.

Its the same power we see used by Skinchangers and Greenseers so unless the Others are that, then they've always been in the story and some are operating under the ignorance of these people.

Remember the GS were almost wiped out in the south. They were butchered my first men and the Starks continued butchering them way after the pact.

But what of the ones that exist in the lands of always winter? They remained.Who went up there to take them out? No one.

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Yes! "...some other creature"

Some. Other. Creature. You're almost there!

We need not look far for "some other creature" wolfmaid. They're called the Others.

Please, when has a greenseer ever demonstrated the ability to animate a corpse?

When has a greenseer ever manipulated ice in any fashion?

When has a greenseer ever made a creature's eyes glow...in any color?

Nothing at all in the text connects wights to greenseers.

This sentence makes no sense... "Even though the text uses the term demons . . . the letter says demons . . ." What are these "clues and hints" that suggest otherwise exactly? Because apparently "the text uses the term demons" and "GRRM letter says demons."

What? Where are they hiding? What passage suggests this?

Seriously though, there's nothing to suggest any greenseer activity behind wights or white walkers. We're told, quite explicitly, in both the book and letter that the Others are raising them...

Book:

Old Nan nodded. In that darkness, the Others came for the first time, she said as her needles went click click click. They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Letter:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

See? Right there. You just listed living beings. The Others are raising legions of the undead. We've nothing to connect wights to greenseers, nor have we anything to suggest that greenseers can animate corpses.

Voice are you serious right now? There is no difference between wearing the skin of the dead or the living except one is dead and the other not dead. Its still all Skinchanging thats the big clue.

Pluuuus Leaf's warning to Bran about NOT calling Ned back from the dead says they can do that.

And here is something you can't talk around. CH''S very existence. If he's a thrall of BR then its proof that GS can do the very thing you say they can't.

If he's of his own self it proves they can and he can as a Skinchanger. You see what I mean, that's how proof looks when its solid.

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That is a misconception Greenseers are not only associated with earth.According to the world book they could be found with children from the lands of always winter to the summer isles.

​Right, everywhere on earth. This does not associate them with ice or fire magic. They live in the north now because they were hinted elsewhere.. this has nothing to do with their magical associations.

Though I think "green"seer is a label for the type of being BR et al. are.

But if we look beyond label at the clues and what GRRM is telling us it is right there plain as day.What is tge difference between enthralling dead animals, birds and people to enthralling ones that are alive. Non except one is using dead bodies while the other is live ones.

​That’s a pretty big damn difference.

Its the same power we see used by Skinchangers and Greenseers so unless the Others are that, then they've always been in the story and some are operating under the ignorance of these people.

More like a total inversion of their power. Raising the dead versus skinchanging... they are opposite versions of the same thing, I guess you could say, but even that is a stretch.

Remember the GS were almost wiped out in the south. They were butchered my first men and the Starks continued butchering them way after the pact.

Did they?

But what of the ones that exist in the lands of always winter? They remained.Who went up there to take them out? No one.

If the greenseers are controlling the Others or wights, then why do they have to ward their cave against them? Why did Leaf have to attack them with fire to save Bran and company? The only undead we see on the side of the greenseers (Coldhands) has significant differences from wights and white walkers, just to make it clear that he is not like them.

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I do agree with Wolfmaid that the warning not to try to raise the dead does imply its possible (for greenseers). I would be into the idea, Wolfmaid, that the ancient Others, in the scenario that they were once something mortal who was magically transformed, were once greenseers who raised the dead and became corrupted. THAT makes a bit of sense, but not the idea that its Bloodraven and the other more tree-like greenseers in the cave controlling the Others. That really makes no sense to me.


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I do agree with Wolfmaid that the warning not to try to raise the dead does imply its possible (for greenseers). I would be into the idea, Wolfmaid, that the ancient Others, in the scenario that they were once something mortal who was magically transformed, were once greenseers who raised the dead and became corrupted. THAT makes a bit of sense, but not the idea that its Bloodraven and the other more tree-like greenseers in the cave controlling the Others. That really makes no sense to me.

No its not BR remember GSs could be found from the lands of always winter all the way to the Summer shore.

We know the ones in the south were massacred to the point of near extinction. The ones in the lands of always winter were never conquered. No one never went up there to take them out.

They were by location spared that fate.

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