The Hierarchy of the Others

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I know the show is not canonical.

But there was

13 white walkers or others dressed in black for a reason.

There is far more about the WW that meets the eye for sure and I don't think the histories are completely accurate.

In the show though WW and Others are the same thing.

[Voice]

In the show though WW and Others are the same thing.

Not exactly (credit to Matthew in Heresy 156):

Semi-related to the Other hierarchy, I came across some interesting tidbits today about the show's Night's King - comments from D&D on, of all things, a featurette about the show's costumes, plus some extra information from the recently released Season 4 blu rays:

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"Executive producers Benioff and Weiss discussed the appearance of the White Walker leader in a Season 4 featurette - though they avoided referring to the character by name, simply using the pronouns He/Him:

Weiss: "We wanted to kind of evolve the White Walker look. He is of a group of almost ageless creatures."

Benioff: "It's an interesting mix between something frightening, obviously, but also regal, something aristocratic about him. We wanted a distinction from the other White Walkers that we've seen."

Weiss: "And we went back and forth for a long time, until we hit upon something that was, if anything, moving in a more human direction, while maintaining a generally horrific look."

According to the Season 4 Blu-ray commentary, a lot more material was actually filmed with this character in "Oathkeeper", but the production team then decided to cut it in order to keep his appearance brief and mysterious."

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The fact that their NK is simultaneously meant to be both ageless, and yet 'more human' than the standard white walker would certainly fit in with the notions some of us have (okay, mostly just you and I) that the fellow at the end of Oathkeeper is the 13th Lord Commander. :devil:

[Lady Blizzardborn]

:cheers:

Perhaps it is only the linguist and Grammar Nazi in me, but the capitalization feels important. As a proper noun, with universal capitalization throughout the series, the Others seem etched into the subconscious (the way half-forgotten demons of legend should be):

• Robb was not impressed. “The Others take his eyes,” he swore. “He died well. Race you to the bridge?”

“The Others take both of you,” Ned muttered darkly.

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” [spoken by the Greatjon]

Even southerners:

• “The Others take your mild snows,” Robert swore. “What will this place be like in winter? I shudder to think.”

“The Others take your pigeon,” the pushcart man said. [spoken to Arya in Flea Bottom]

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“The Others take my wife,” Robert muttered sourly, but he started back the way they had come, his footsteps falling heavily.

This "curse" seems to evoke the Others of the Long Night, who would indeed come and take people, hunting them with their ice spiders. It seems to be uniquely Westerosi as well, which speaks to the severity with which the people of Westeros were traumatized by the Others.

The lowercase terms, wights and white walkers, seem to be slang inventions, used to differentiate the new 'others' the Ancient Others were creating out of thin air...or out of the slain...or out of the blood sacrifices of infants... The cold mists and cold winds are also used nearly synonymously with white walkers by wildlings.

Fair points all, but as I mentioned, in the letter "others" was not capitalized. I think GRRM's agent or editor told him it would be too confusing to use an uncapitalized others in the story (as it would be) and that's why that word is capitalized. If Others, White Walkers, and Wights are all different, it makes no difference from a literary stand point whether all or none are capitalized. Though you make a good point about the way Others stands out as compared with just others.

I skipped the giant spider examples. Hope you don't mind. ;)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Not exactly (credit to Matthew in Heresy 156):

That specifically points out that they want him to look different from "the other White Walkers" we've seen. Which means they are thinking the two are the same. I'm not saying that means that they are, only that she show is not a good basis for discussion on this particular topic because they've taken the stance that Others and White Walkers are just different terms for the same thing. Different Others can have different looks, just like different humans can.

[Voice]

Fair points all, but as I mentioned, in the letter "others" was not capitalized. I think GRRM's agent or editor told him it would be too confusing to use an uncapitalized others in the story (as it would be) and that's why that word is capitalized. If Others, White Walkers, and Wights are all different, it makes no difference from a literary stand point whether all or none are capitalized. Though you make a good point about the way Others stands out as compared with just others.

I skipped the giant spider examples. Hope you don't mind. ;)

Totally understand ;)

I do agree the editor likely had GRRM capitalize it. But I think the fact that 'the Others' is capitalized in every instance, and GRRM decided to leave their lesser variants, 'white walkers' and 'wights' in lowercase, is telling.

WW is the common abbreviation for white walkers, but it should be 'ww.' "Wights" are also never capitalized in the text (I've already admitted my Grammar Nazi problem). The only exceptions being if "white" or "wight" is the first word in a sentence. I think this points towards "the Others" being the proper noun for the things that first came in the long night.

As the long night progressed, the Others started producing white walkers and wights. In the time since their arrival, the term began being used a catch-all for cold, blue-eyed things that go bump in the night, while slang variants emerged to describe and differentiate their underlings. I believe these slang variants are lowercase for this very reason, like "squishers."

[Voice]

That specifically points out that they want him to look different from "the other White Walkers" we've seen. Which means they are thinking the two are the same. I'm not saying that means that they are, only that she show is not a good basis for discussion on this particular topic because they've taken the stance that Others and White Walkers are just different terms for the same thing. Different Others can have different looks, just like different humans can.

Well yeah, but the producers are clearly dancing around the spoiler.

Why do they want to differentiate some ww's from other ww's?

Why did they want some to look more human?

To the point of this thread, why did they want the "white walkers" that reside north and north and north to look more human than their infantry?

They want to brag about their work, without giving away their purpose.

[King of Nothing]

Sorry if this is a stupid question for this thread... But where can I find a discussion on the connection between wolves/direwolves and the others? They have similar traits in my opinion...

[Voice]

They do seem to both hunt in packs ;)

I'm sure there are a few threads on it. Might want to try the search function at the top of this page.

The topic does come up from time to time in Heresy as well.

[King of Winters]

Yup, that was probably me over in Heresy there friend :) but we never included children and giants in the lot. A few heretics have posited cotf as the puppetmasters behind the Others though, that might be the source of some confusion I suppose.

I don't see the children as being the puppet masters of the white walkers, but I do think that they are in league together.

They may have had a hand in their creation, I'm not sure, but I think that the white walkers are their own separate force now.

[SevasTra82]

I distinctly remember reading that the show changed the name "The Others" to "White Walkers" strictly for show purposes, saying the name was more direct. I'll post the interview if I find it, but I'm 100% positive they are the same. The Books refer to them strictly as "The Others", while the show "White Walkers". There is never a cross in this (the term White Walker never appears in the Books and vice versa).

[Voice]

I distinctly remember reading that the show changed the name "The Others" to "White Walkers" strictly for show purposes, saying the name was more direct. I'll post the interview if I find it, but I'm 100% positive they are the same. The Books refer to them strictly as "The Others", while the show "White Walkers". There is never a cross in this (the term White Walker never appears in the Books and vice versa).

Sounds like you're due for a re-read there my friend... The term "white walkers" appears in the books quite often, as does Others. And the show, fittingly, uses both.

Here are some examples:

Aux contraire, in no particular order:

Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

"Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." (1.53, BRAN)

"I tell you my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths, and snow bears the size of aurochs, I have seen darker shapes in my dreams"

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

[Voice]

I don't see the children as being the puppet masters of the white walkers, but I do think that they are in league together.

They may have had a hand in their creation, I'm not sure, but I think that the white walkers are their own separate force now.

There more than a few in Heresy who share your view. I don't, but that's not to say I'm 100% on the issue. I'm curious, what makes you feel like they are in league together? Remember, the children weren't always exiles beyond the Wall, all of Westeros was their homeland, and they preferred the greener areas...

[Maester Mando]

Interesting post, OP!

[Voice]

Interesting post, OP!

:cheers: thanks!

[wolfmaid7]

Oh i am glad you have this up.Great work on it overall for what you were going for.Though i think there is 'something' else hiding behind "The Others" It nice to see it laid out. Can i link you on my thread as a must read? I transferred my "Cold the Wight and the Wight Walker Thread" to general recently.

[Voice]

Oh i am glad you have this up.Great work on it overall for what you were going for.Though i think there is 'something' else hiding behind "The Others" It nice to see it laid out. Can i link you on my thread as a must read? I transferred my "Cold the Wight and the Wight Walker Thread" to general recently.

I'd be honored :) glad you had a chance to check it out wolfmaid!

[LmL]

VotFM (and LmL) if I may

Dragonsteel could be from comets the same way Dawn is from a comet. If a comet-event/meteor shower was seen as thousand thousand dragons, you see what I mean.

I think Dawn is the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero aka the original Ice.

BOOM! goes the dynamite. I agree that Dawn was the original Ice, and comes from a piece of the comet itself. It would shine with blue-white light, like the swords Jamie and Brienne held in Jamie's dream on the weirwood stump, or like the ones the ghost of the Genstone Emperoros of the Great Empire of the Dawn which appeared in Daenerys' dream in AGOT. I think there was also another sword, this one being the flaming one, and that's the sword of Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor. I think these two swords clashed in Wetseros.. Not sure yet who won, or which one would be the one to go fight the others and be remembered as dragonsteel. But yeah, Dawn was carved from the heart of a falling star, a cold lump of iron with perhaps a little nickel and phosphorus to make a ready-made steel allow. They just stuck it in the oven and hammered it - explaining the anachronistic nature of steel in the Dawn Age.

[Blazfemur]

In the show though WW and Others are the same thing.

Are they though? I think specifically the show MORESO went into the two different kinds [without saying such], those that were born Other, and those that were MADE (remember, we still havent witnessed the "making" of an Other in the book, other than what Craster's daughter implied)

While it's wrong of me to imply, and well done Voice Of The First Men for finally putting this out there, you know we agree on a lot of the same ideas, there are in fact 2 different kinds of Others, and we have two names for them. Would it be "wrong" to label one as Other, and the other as White Walker? (i.e. those that were born, those that were made)

it's not like those that were made Other could have access to that ancient crackly grim language they speak. If the power of Other can be transferred to child, if it were transferred to adult, theyd still speak common tongue id think. Or, maybe not, who knows.

Babies brought up Other, would learn the old tongue as well as any baby would learn to speak, growing up.

Interesting sidebar, and all these threads are the same when it comes down to it so i dont know if i mentioned it to any of you specifically in other threads: regarding the 13 in black. In my mind, that leader was TNK/TLH, his 12 companions, in black. Those 13, are sworn to the oath. They are a sect. Not all Others are sworn to it, but they MAY be. This is further bolstered by the whole:

They take Craster's babies, they father

none.

They take only the boys, so there are no girls to wive

They are on the move, nomadic, and there are no designated lands beyond the wall, so technically they roam and hold no lands.

Regardless. Things start to come together, however, a lot of it is based on what we SAW, and not what we READ (i acknowledge that).

In the separation of sects, yeah i agree, ancient Others (ice/glass armor, ancient tongue), made Others (craster's babies, all male), wights. Thus far, in the book it would be unfair to categorize them as ALL male

(though i do, wont get into it here, im a believer in 'there's no such thing as a female Other,' and TNQ was a NW lie to exile TNK/TLH, to me it's a technicality waiting to be validated)

, however on the show itself, we've only SEEN (so far), male Others. In black garb, or in regular garb. And males being taken. it's a case of, lack of evidence verifying evidence for me, and a gamble.

and finally, i wouldnt be me if i didnt didnt mention Fomas from TWOIAF, whose idea that the original Others were nothing mroe than First Men who ventured north and obtained the power. There is merit here, though, since we've witnessed transference of Other from TNK to baby. Why wouldnt First Men be able to seize that power? This of course, would support that Others ARENT a separate race of beings, just humans that had sought and obtained power.

[LmL]

Cheers Lucifer, glad you could stop by. I like the elementals idea, but I see Others differently...

Dragons seem to literally be Fire made flesh, dangerous, difficult to control, and leave ashes in their wake. The Others share some of this, as they are dangerous and leave dead lands in their wake, but they are not merely Ice made flesh. Remember GRRM's description of inhuman Sidhe made of Ice. While inhuman, the Others do bear longswords, wear armour, have a mind for warcraft, ride mounts, employ packs of creatures to hunt with, and speak a verbal language. The same cannot be said of dragons.

Dragons seem completely elemental, indigenously "fire made flesh," the Others do not. They seem to be far more closely related to Men, if not formerly Men themselves.

I've been thinking about Ice Dragons recently.. There's so much about them in the Worldbook that I now think they are a real thing. They supposedly turn to water, or melt, when they are killed - so they are literally ice made flesh, perhaps an equivalent to fire made flesh. Dragons however seem more like real animals than Ice Dragons, so I'm not sure. But then we have the Shadowbinders... They alone go to the heart of the shadow. They cannot expose themselves to sunlight, it seems, because they wear masks or stay in Asshai. Mel seems to have a long life span, she doesn't eat or sleep, etc. Perhaps these are more equal to WW than Ancient Others, humans turned to fire beings. Fire wights like Beric seem equal to cold wights, although clearly Coldhands shows us there are two different kinds of cold wights. Coldhands is like Beric, so perhaps there's a zombie fire wight yet to be seen. There also might not be exact equals on each side.. But I hear what you're saying about the Others in the prologue having armor and culture, etc. So you're saying those were the real deal, Ancient Others, in the prologue?

To the letter, GRRM equates "Neverborn" with the cadet branch of "white walkers." I wish he would have used it for the elder branch, but alas, the author's word is canon. This neverborn concept likely speaks to the Craster's Sons theory. If this is the case, we have our Ancient Others harvesting sacrificed/abandoned "sons" and using them to somehow create their "neverborn" white walkers.

This makes sense. I hesitate to conclude to much from "Neverborn," but it is interesting.

Ah, but according to the annals at Castle Black, the Ancient Others could not stand against "dragonsteel," not our common obsidian dragonglass. Dragonglass is the bane of white walkers, but the elder branch seem to require something with a bit more mettle :)

But yes, once the Watch remembers its true enemy, and how to use obsidian arrowheads, white walkers suddenly become as threatening as ducks in a pond. Or, perhaps more aptly, white ravens in a rookery...

Yes, I was trying to agree with you on all of that. I agree it points to a third type which is resistant to obsidian, or else there wouldn't be that much of a threat.

This is precisely how I envision the happy reunion :devil:

Now imagine some of them know how to open the Black Gate under the Night Fort... Or, Samwell fixes the cracked horn Jon gave him and brings the Wall down by accident. We have ourselves a shitstorm worthy of a seven volume fantasy epic ;)

I think George is secretly enjoying baiting everyone with the Others thing, like every time he hears someone poo-poo the Others, saying they're never actually coming, he just chuckles to himself and thinks, "you just wait till the REAL Others start climbing the Wall on backs of giant Ice Spiders, just like Old Nan said." And then he unleashes is best evil villain laugh. MUAH HA HA HA

Indeed, and there are other clues. Dany is mentioned as only being the second of three threats to the realm. The first was the Wo5K. The third, and greatest, is the Others. I think Dany and her Dragons will turn to stone (greyscale), but that's another story. Point being, in the 93 letter, she isn't the savior of Westeros, but an invader. She's merely another distraction from the true threat.

As it stands, wights and white walkers aren't all that threatening, so I think this further supports my hypothesis.

I agree it does support your premise. I do think Dany's importance has grown since the letter was written, perhaps.

Dragonsteel is needed, in particular, to deal with the proper Others. The cadet "white walkers" are easily suppressed with dragonglass. The undead thralls, our "wights," are easily suppressed with fire. This also points toward there being a higher echelon of Other, as supposedly, the ancient Others that first came in the long night could not stand against this substance... according to the annals Samwell found in which the Last Hero wields it.

Dragonsteel sounds like an almost literal metaphor for Fire Sword. LB's suggestion of dragonbone seems very plausible, as does Valyrian Steel, but it may just as easily be a material we've not yet seen on the page. In any case, Fire Sword makes for a nice antithesis of the longswords we've seen white walkers wield. My guess is that dragonsteel will have the capacity to destroy all three types: Ancient Others, white walkers, and wights.

I've got a pretty fancy explanation for dragonsteel, coming in Part 3 of my astronomy thingamajig. We have seen it on the page, but we just didn't know it.

[Durran Durrandon]

I'm wondering if maybe their doesn't need to be a distinction between White Walkers and Others here. Sure, the Others we have seen don't ride ice spiders and we are all waiting for those to turn up, but just because human foot soldiers don't ride horses like knights, doesn't make them a different type of human. In the same since we may not have seen the uber-elite spider riding Others, and in this sense, yes I see a hierarchy, but I don't think that demonstrates that they are a different type of Other that can't be harmed with obsidian weapons. (Note, I'm not saying it means they couldn't be. I am saying it doesn't demonstrate that they are.)