The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[BearQueen87]

Suzanna, thank you for another good essay.

WRT monsters, Dany compares herself to one. At heart, she fears that she's an evil person, and that she'll enjoy killing and violence far too much. I think that someone who fears that they're evil is unlikely to be evil; but, there is a side to her that does enjoy violence. "Dracarys" "she sang" at Astapor. She doesn't get sexually aroused by torture, like her father, or laugh at seeing dwarfs hunted by lions. But, she does rejoice at seeing bad people suffer horribly.

Cersei, on the other hand, has romantic tendencies toward destruction. She's almost aroused by watching the Tower of the Hand go up in flames. Dany is drawn to the funeral pyre fire but it's act of life instead of an act of destruction as Cersei (and everyone else) sees the act of burning up the Tower.

[MoIaF]

Suzanna, thank you for another good essay.

WRT monsters, Dany compares herself to one. At heart, she fears that she's an evil person, and that she'll enjoy killing and violence far too much. I think that someone who fears that they're evil is unlikely to be evil; but, there is a side to her that does enjoy violence. "Dracarys" "she sang" at Astapor. She doesn't get sexually aroused by torture, like her father, or laugh at seeing dwarfs hunted by lions. But, she does rejoice at seeing bad people suffer horribly.

She's a woman of contradictions. Like Alexander the Great, who behaved with great kindness and chivalry towards the Persian royal family and King Porus, but could deal horribly with those who defied him.

In ADWD after she chains her dragons she thinks to herself that if they are monsters so is she. She does fear becoming a monster, however, by the end of ADWD she has embraced the fact that she is a dragon.

I think she won't be as conflicted over punishing her enemies, but I don't think she'll get aroused by it or do it for shits and giggles.

Cersei, on the other hand, has romantic tendencies toward destruction. She's almost aroused by watching the Tower of the Hand go up in flames. Dany is drawn to the funeral pyre fire but it's act of life instead of an act of destruction as Cersei (and everyone else) sees the act of burning up the Tower.

I think Cersei's reaction to the burning of the TotH is probably how Aerys got started down the road to crazytown.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thanks Everyone :)

#teamkhaleesi #bestrereadever

[BearQueen87]

I know Suzanna touched on this in her analysis, but just going back to it: I think the biggest contrast between Dany and Cersei in terms of motherhood is "who is first" when they think about themselves vs their children. Cersei claims that everything she is doing is for her children, be it Joff or later Tommen. But in reality, she's a very self centered person who cares more about her own personal power than her children's rights. In AFFC she thinks about how Tommen can wait his turn to rule; it's her turn and she means to take it. Dany, by contrast, thinks about her children first--be it the former residents of Astapor dying outside the wall of Meereen whom she lovingly tends to, or the dragons that she protects and thinks about them as her fierce children and no harm can come to them. She can't leave Meereen because she knows that those she fought to free will only be put back in chains. What would Cersei do in that situation (provided that Cersei even cared about freeing the slaves in the first place)

[Parwan]

WRT to the general issue of protecting children, this is a matter with many aspects. People are expected to love their own children and to provide for them. This usually happens. Hell, this usually happens with mammals (at least female mammals; the amount of parenting provided by males varies with the species). Widening the circle a bit, we have the children of the extended family--or the band, or the tribe, or perhaps the ethnic group. It is natural to have a preference for "our children," not entirely virtuous, but natural. After all, we are supposed to "be fruitful and multiply," right? I suppose that Cersei might have some feeling for little Lannister nieces and nephews, but this does not have to be the case. She doesn't treat adult relatives all that well. Sometimes she treats them quite badly.

Widening things still further, doing good for children in general is seen as a virtue. Those who prey upon little ones are viewed with disgust and contempt, even by other criminals. Known pedophiles do not last long in prison unless they are isolated from the rest of the population. This does not mean that people commonly go out of their way or make sacrifices to help children to whom they are not related. It does mean that such actions are viewed as praiseworthy. Both Eddard and Daenerys show a tendency to be concerned about children in general.

WRT to Joffrey's character: BearQueen raises an interesting point concerning nature and nurture. I don't think that either of his parents did a good job of upbringing. There is another significant matter to consider. Joff is the crown prince. I believe that this has caused problems which can only partially be attributed to Robert and Cersei. The 7K is a government of men, not of laws, and the big man is the king. The boy who is going to be king should be held to certain standards, taught to act rightly. It's obvious that this has not been done in the time leading up to the beginning of AGoT. Joff believes that he can act like an utter jerk and be supported in this behavior. That's what the Hound and the other Lannister men do in Winterfell. They are extremely rude to their hosts. When the master-at-arms of the castle tries to impose proper order on training, Clegane undermines him. He and the other Lannisters laugh as Joffrey sneers at the Starks.

[Ser Creighton]

Suzy I do not envy having to draw comparisons to Cersie, it is no easy task I imagine.

I think one comparison is that Dany's 3 children, her dragons are the physical manifestation of her power and her family. But they are not human, as uch as she loves them they are Dragons, they have a purpose, they have a nature all to their own. Intresting enough Cersei' children are her link to power as well.

Both women struggle to control their children as well, though Cersei seeks to control her children for power, Dany is trying to prevent her children from becoming a great uncontrolled danger.

I don't know if it is a parallel, but Cersei essentially wants Tommen to take up the whip, where Drogon reminds Dany that the whip is not the way.

Cersei tends to be all about Cersei, her children are her posssesions, and this goes back even further than that. Jaime, even as a child if you threatened to take what she percieved was hers, she was wroth, to he point that she dumped a girl in a well for even suggesting that she could be with Jaime. We see this mirrored with Marg and Tommen, ow dare anyone take what is hers.

While born monsters the Dragons were not raised as such, Dany very much loved them, and played with them and protected them. In a sense that love is returned when Drogon returns to her, twice. Almost as if teaching her a lesson. Not a cruel lesson, but a reminder about who she is. She did not belong in the fighting pits, she does not belong in Meereen and she should not be holding that whip.

It's intresting in that Dany in a sense taught Monsters love, even Viserion in the pit was looking for his mother. While Cersei, well what did she teach her kids? Joff is tough because he was born with a predisposition to a personality disorder. But Tommen, he does not come to his mother, he begins to push her away as Joff did. Now Myrcella is even tougher because we do not know her all that well. And Tommen and Myrcella do seem very decent children. But it was Joff that Cersei favored, and there seem some hints that Tyrion was close with both Tommen and Myrcella going back to thrones, and I would suggest Septa' because through the series until Joff dies we almost never see Cersei show much intrest in them or until Myrcell is taken away. Which goes back to her possessive nature. Though no mother wants to see her kids leave.

It seems often that Cersei wishes to live through the boys, through Jaime, through Joff, and through Tommen and what she wants is power. She is always seeking it, she believes power and control will make her happy, and it's not that she is wrong about the way woman are treated in her society. But rather, she is misguided in her beliefs of what happiness is or even what she thinks will make her happy. While Dany often contomplates on what will make her happy and power has very little to do with it, it always revolves around a more simple life, a home, someone to love, to not be alone.

In terms of her children, the Dragons that is, it is clear they were born for a purpose in this world, in her life and her story, Dany often feels she has to be doing what she is doing for a greater purpose. And lets be honest she has very good reasons to think that. Dany feels it is very much her responsibility as you have said. But for Cersei this about her desire.

Both woman feel entitled to throne, but both have very different reasons for that, and very different ways of going about it. Cersei wants the power but not the responsablity, Dany understands that with great power comes great responsablity which is why she freed the slaves, where Cersei would of never given them a second thought.

Dany has an understanding of love, duty, responsibility, right and wrong, and selflessness. Dany is often her own worst critic.

Cersei is selfish, blames others for her short comings and mistakes, never takes responsablity for her actions, could care less about her duty to the country and loves herself first and foremost.

It's intresting how different they are, yet Martin can and does paint a fine line between them and many other characters. Of course that plays into the theme of the duality of man and the human heart in conflict.

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

That was a really nice read on the motherhood aspect of Cersei and Dany.

Both women struggle to control their children as well, though Cersei seeks to control her children for power, Dany is trying to prevent her children from becoming a great uncontrolled danger.

I also don't think Cersei would go the extra steps that Dany would to ensure that her children don't become an uncontrolled danger. Now, I'll grant that Cersei can't exactly lock Joff up in a pit, but she also doesn't really attempt to reign him in. His sociopathy is considered disquieting but nothing that she intends to correct and in her own mind, something she could control if she chose to. There's a real sense of ego with her that Dany's doesn't have when it comes to the dragons, at least until the end of ADWD

Does anyone else here watch Bates Motel? Cersei and Joff remind me of Norma and Norman Bates (of future Psycho fame). She smothers him and excuses his behaviors while also covering up his obvious sexual and violent overtones. She loves him in a way that someone like Norman Bates shouldn't be loved. It stems from her personal childhood trauma of being used and manipulated and abused. Cersei sees herself as a victim of the patriarchy and that informs the way she cares and smothers and "loves" her own children.

While born monsters the Dragons were not raised as such, Dany very much loved them, and played with them and protected them. In a sense that love is returned when Drogon returns to her, twice. Almost as if teaching her a lesson. Not a cruel lesson, but a reminder about who she is. She did not belong in the fighting pits, she does not belong in Meereen and she should not be holding that whip.

Dany/Drogon seems ripe for a comparison with Cersei/Joffrey. Drogon is a literal monster but he'll bend to Dany's commands and she can control him to the point where mother and child are one in harmony. Joff was not born a literal monster but became one both because, most likely, though his own chemical make up but also the way he was raised (simultaneously smothered and abused/neglected). As the story moves closer to the Purple Wedding we see that Cersei has less and less control over Joffrey; there is no harmony there.

It seems often that Cersei wishes to live through the boys, through Jaime, through Joff, and through Tommen and what she wants is power.

I'd add Tywin to that last, though she intends to supplant him not live through him. She thinks, at the beginning of AFFC, that soon she'll be the Lannister they all remember, not her father. He'll just be known as the man who sired Cersei Lannister. Tywin is her idol for what strength means but she also means to take it 1000 steps more.

Cersei wants the power but not the responsablity, Dany understands that with great power comes great responsablity which is why she freed the slaves, where Cersei would of never given them a second thought.

Dany has an understanding of love, duty, responsibility, right and wrong, and selflessness. Dany is often her own worst critic.

Cersei is selfish, blames others for her short comings and mistakes, never takes responsablity for her actions, could care less about her duty to the country and loves herself first and foremost.

100% agree

[Seams]

Cersei tends to be all about Cersei, her children are her possesions, ... We see this mirrored with Marg and Tommen, how dare anyone take what is hers.

...

...Tommen, he does not come to his mother, he begins to push her away as Joff did. Now Myrcella is even tougher because we do not know her all that well. And Tommen and Myrcella do seem very decent children. But it was Joff that Cersei favored, and there seem some hints that Tyrion was close with both Tommen and Myrcella going back to thrones,... until Joff dies we almost never see Cersei show much interest in them or until Myrcell is taken away. Which goes back to her possessive nature. Though no mother wants to see her kids leave.

This raises an interesting point I hadn't considered: Cersei feels very threatened by the arranged marriages for which her children are destined. How will Dany feel about the others humans who are destined to ride her dragons? Is that the equivalent of an arranged marriage? Is she aware of the "dragon has three heads" language of the prophecy, and that each dragon usually bonds with only one rider? Will she be glad to have fellow dragon riders, or will she feel threatened?

Dany pretended to make a match for one of her dragons when she bought the Unsullied from Kraznys mo Nakloz. Once the slaver agrees that the deal is done, Dany tells him that dragons are not slaves, and Drogon burns Kraznys' face off. So we know that Dany does not see the dragons as things to be bartered away, as some Westerosi nobles seem to barter their children in arranged marriages.

There doesn't seem to be a direct equivalent of the Drogon/Kraznys situation for Cersei's children, but we do have the situation of Joffrey being engaged to Sansa and that engagement being broken so he can instead marry Margaery, who can provide an army as part of the alliance. Cersei is just relieved that Sansa won't be her rival queen, and does see the value of the Tyrell alliance, as I recall. So Drogon, like Joff, is "traded" for an army but the mother, in both cases, does not see the trade as a deal on which it is necessary or appropriate to follow through.

Myrcella is sent off to Dorne under Tyrion's strategic guidance. Cersei is not at all happy about it, but she accepts it - initially - on some level. (She might even admit that Myrcella will be safer away from the imminent attack by Stannis? I can't remember.) It's true that we don't know much about Myrcella, except that she immediately hits it off with Trystane Martell and that she is a fiend for the game Cyvasse. (I don't know if her passion for Cyvasse makes her more like Tyrion, who also excels at the game, or like Cersei, who is one of the first to refer to Westeros politics as a Game of Thrones.)

If Myrcella's good chemistry with Trystane is any clue, maybe this supports the predictions that the burned man who died in Dany's bed was not Quentyn Martell, and that the real Quentyn did successfully ride off on one of the dragons that had been chained in the pit. If so, that would be a first non-arranged "marriage" for one of Dany's "children," and it will be interesting to see how she reacts to it. Will she accept that each dragon must choose its own rider, or will she be outraged that Quentyn went around her and stole her child?

Cersei certainly does not accept the marriage of Tommen and Margaery. She still fears the fortune-teller's prophecy about a younger, more beautiful queen, and she doesn't want to lose the grip on power that comes from her sole authority to dominate her youngest son.

It's hard to imagine a parallel construction of the Cersei-Tommen-Margaery relationship that would involve Dany, Rhaegal and a third rider. (Assuming here that Quentyn flew off on Viserion, which is largely speculative, I know.)

Maybe sorting out the three heads of the dragon/three dragon riders will help to sort out the cryptic prophecies revealed to Dany at the House of the Undying, just as the fortune-teller's predictions to Cersei involved the fate of her three children.

[Ser Creighton]

That was a really nice read on the motherhood aspect of Cersei and Dany.

I also don't think Cersei would go the extra steps that Dany would to ensure that her children don't become an uncontrolled danger. Now, I'll grant that Cersei can't exactly lock Joff up in a pit, but she also doesn't really attempt to reign him in. His sociopathy is considered disquieting but nothing that she intends to correct and in her own mind, something she could control if she chose to. There's a real sense of ego with her that Dany's doesn't have when it comes to the dragons, at least until the end of ADWD

Does anyone else here watch Bates Motel? Cersei and Joff remind me of Norma and Norman Bates (of future Psycho fame). She smothers him and excuses his behaviors while also covering up his obvious sexual and violent overtones. She loves him in a way that someone like Norman Bates shouldn't be loved. It stems from her personal childhood trauma of being used and manipulated and abused. Cersei sees herself as a victim of the patriarchy and that informs the way she cares and smothers and "loves" her own children.

Dany/Drogon seems ripe for a comparison with Cersei/Joffrey. Drogon is a literal monster but he'll bend to Dany's commands and she can control him to the point where mother and child are one in harmony. Joff was not born a literal monster but became one both because, most likely, though his own chemical make up but also the way he was raised (simultaneously smothered and abused/neglected). As the story moves closer to the Purple Wedding we see that Cersei has less and less control over Joffrey; there is no harmony there.

I'd add Tywin to that last, though she intends to supplant him not live through him. She thinks, at the beginning of AFFC, that soon she'll be the Lannister they all remember, not her father. He'll just be known as the man who sired Cersei Lannister. Tywin is her idol for what strength means but she also means to take it 1000 steps more.

100% agree

I am glad you enjoyed but almost all of it came from Suzy' write up. Like I said I do not envy someone having to write about Cersei and Dany, they are 2 of the most complex characters and have complex motivations and she did a great job, her last two essays have given me a lot to think about.

I have to address the Bates Motel, Cersei and Joff are totally Norma and Norman. I think about it every time I watch the show.

No of course Cersei can't lock Joff up, but she had a chance to leave and be safe and she turned Ned down. There is another intresting Dynamic between Cersei and Dany. Robert became a threat to both them and thier children, but again we see the motivation is very different. Robert is a danger to Cersei because of her own actions, and Ned tried to actually help her, he gave her a chance. Robert is a threat to Dany by no fault of action of her own, and again Ned tried to help her. Though Cersei spoke to Ned and Dany does not hear of it till much later.

Remember that line about Steel and Iron? Well for me that is kind of Cersei and Dany. I don't want to really fully rag on Cersei because part of her is a product of her environment and upbringing. She has a strength to her, but she is like iron hard and brittle. Dany is the true steel, she can be ruthless if she has to be, but also compationate and kind. She can give and she can take, she can be wroth and fierice but also gentle and giving. Add her magic aspects and really, she is Valyriian Steel, she does not break though she can bend.

Neither woman is a typical trope, some say Cersei is an evil Queen, but that is an over generalization. but we get a lot of her motivations and she is very complex. Dany is the same way she is not the Princess in the tower or the Warrior woman, she is a strong leader. She picks up things quickly, she adusts to her environment weather she likes it or not, she has gift for languages, she picks up on most things quickly. But this is not a 40 year old highly experienced world leader, this a gifted 15 year old who has the potential for greatness. I know people talk about Jon and Rhaegar, but I always felt he has more of his mother in him, Dany though has that Rhaegar Targaryen side to her. She just happens to be young and inexperienced, and in a really complex situation. I sometimes think Cersei would like to be Dany. A strong, self made female leader. Cersei wanted to be that Targaryen, didn't she? She has a little Targaryen envy in her, going back to her childhood.

And yeah her idea on controling Joff, was very he has a right to do it, and really only questions him when he does not do what she wants. She was a bit dismissive of it at times, and she did not want him off that throne. She would look the other way on a lot of things to make sure she had her hands on that throne.

You know with Control and the Dragons I am not sure how it works, but there is something there. I have seen a lot of posts about how they are out of control and this and that. But it's not really true. Going back al lthe way to the begining, Dany and her dragons always had some kind of instinct with eachother. Drogon in the house of the Undying not only new exactly what was bad and where to stirke, he was protecting her the entire time he was with her, and even guided her where she needed to go. In Astapor the Dragons wanted nothing to do with the slavers and even tried to esscape and get away from them when they were on the ship. When she released them in Astapor they new exactly what she wanted them to do. In Yunkai they singed the Tokar as a warning and to shake the slaver up but did not try and kill him. They have never shown no real signs of killing indiscriminately. Save for the little girl and I still question that story. From the sheep hearders perspective, it may looked like something that did not happen, if it happened that way at all.

In the pit Rhaegal and Viserion were attacked, and who did Rhaegal go after, the guy with the whip. They took two pyramids, but conflict only occured when the slavers tried to take the Pyramids back. Neither has shown any signs of hunting humans and prefer mutton, they can swoop down and get a human anytime they want. Drogon attacked a boar not the gladiator who was dead. He in turn was attacked, and when he flew off he did not breath fire until he was shot at with crossbows. They do not like slavers, and even things symbolic of slavers, like whips. So I am not sssure how the dragon bond thing works, but it works in some way that is clear.

And no Cersei can't do that with Joff, Bran could, but not Cersei. To bad Sansa couldn't warg him, "Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself. "Punch, Punch, Punch." Maybe if she had raised him better I don't know, he seemed to have issues that went a little deeper than that.

It'ss intrestin about control because no matter who you are, it will always be limited. I think about Dany playing with Drogon and how even though he is a monster, all the dragons are, there is a sweetness at times to them, that I never saw with Joff. And it's funny because Joff was suppose to be a King, and there is a reference to Drogon returning to her, that references him as a king. Were both slipped away, something brought Drogon back, she has a connection to her dragons that Cersei never had with Jonff, both magical and emotional.

Oh yeah the Tywin envy Cersei had, good point. Yeah she had that bad, which I think is intresting because it is that yeah I am going to be the best and better that you attitude she gets. While I think once Dany fully understands about her father she will also wish to better than him, and will be.

[BearQueen87]

This raises an interesting point I hadn't considered: Cersei feels very threatened by the arranged marriages for which her children are destined. How will Dany feel about the others humans who are destined to ride her dragons? Is that the equivalent of an arranged marriage? Is she aware of the "dragon has three heads" language of the prophecy, and that each dragon usually bonds with only one rider? Will she be glad to have fellow dragon riders, or will she feel threatened?

I have wondered that quite a bit. Dany's not just losing a weapon, she's losing her child. All mothers get anxious when their children go off to lead new lives. But by the same token, Dany can't ride all three dragons at once. So if she wants to put those dragons to good use in the inevitable war to come, she has to give up control. She can do it...Cersei cant.

I have to address the Bates Motel, Cersei and Joff are totally Norma and Norman. I think about it every time I watch the show.

Oh good; glad I'm not the only one.

Remember that line about Steel and Iron? Well for me that is kind of Cersei and Dany. I don't want to really fully rag on Cersei because part of her is a product of her environment and upbringing. She has a strength to her, but she is like iron hard and brittle. Dany is the true steel, she can be ruthless if she has to be, but also compationate and kind. She can give and she can take, she can be wroth and fierice but also gentle and giving. Add her magic aspects and really, she is Valyriian Steel, she does not break though she can bend.

Wonderfully put. I'd agree.

I know people talk about Jon and Rhaegar, but I always felt he has more of his mother in him, Dany though has that Rhaegar Targaryen side to her.

Jorah and Barristan agree with you (and so do I) WRT to Dany. I see hints of Rhaegar in Jon, though, but I agree that Dany got the lion's (dragon's?) share of her brother.

I sometimes think Cersei would like to be Dany. A strong, self made female leader. Cersei wanted to be that Targaryen, didn't she? She has a little Targaryen envy in her, going back to her childhood.

I agree. And I think if Cersei ever does met Dany there will be a jealousy there. With Marg, she's jealous of her looks and the way Tommen responds to her but at the end of the day, Marg and Cersei both depend on males (Loras, Jaime). Dany has made her own way and while she'll use sellswords or armies or knights to get where she needs to go, she can also ride a dragon into battle just like any knight, footman or sellsword. Dany's people also follow her when she is without a husband or king. Cersei is constantly being hounded about needing to get married again in order to breed and because a woman can't rule without a man.

[XSarellaX]

This raises an interesting point I hadn't considered: Cersei feels very threatened by the arranged marriages for which her children are destined. How will Dany feel about the others humans who are destined to ride her dragons? Is that the equivalent of an arranged marriage? Is she aware of the "dragon has three heads" language of the prophecy, and that each dragon usually bonds with only one rider? Will she be glad to have fellow dragon riders, or will she feel threatened?

Dany pretended to make a match for one of her dragons when she bought the Unsullied from Kraznys mo Nakloz. Once the slaver agrees that the deal is done, Dany tells him that dragons are not slaves, and Drogon burns Kraznys' face off. So we know that Dany does not see the dragons as things to be bartered away, as some Westerosi nobles seem to barter their children in arranged marriages.

There doesn't seem to be a direct equivalent of the Drogon/Kraznys situation for Cersei's children, but we do have the situation of Joffrey being engaged to Sansa and that engagement being broken so he can instead marry Margaery, who can provide an army as part of the alliance. Cersei is just relieved that Sansa won't be her rival queen, and does see the value of the Tyrell alliance, as I recall. So Drogon, like Joff, is "traded" for an army but the mother, in both cases, does not see the trade as a deal on which it is necessary or appropriate to follow through.

Myrcella is sent off to Dorne under Tyrion's strategic guidance. Cersei is not at all happy about it, but she accepts it - initially - on some level. (She might even admit that Myrcella will be safer away from the imminent attack by Stannis? I can't remember.) It's true that we don't know much about Myrcella, except that she immediately hits it off with Trystane Martell and that she is a fiend for the game Cyvasse. (I don't know if her passion for Cyvasse makes her more like Tyrion, who also excels at the game, or like Cersei, who is one of the first to refer to Westeros politics as a Game of Thrones.)

If Myrcella's good chemistry with Trystane is any clue, maybe this supports the predictions that the burned man who died in Dany's bed was not Quentyn Martell, and that the real Quentyn did successfully ride off on one of the dragons that had been chained in the pit. If so, that would be a first non-arranged "marriage" for one of Dany's "children," and it will be interesting to see how she reacts to it. Will she accept that each dragon must choose its own rider, or will she be outraged that Quentyn went around her and stole her child?

Cersei certainly does not accept the marriage of Tommen and Margaery. She still fears the fortune-teller's prophecy about a younger, more beautiful queen, and she doesn't want to lose the grip on power that comes from her sole authority to dominate her youngest son.

It's hard to imagine a parallel construction of the Cersei-Tommen-Margaery relationship that would involve Dany, Rhaegal and a third rider. (Assuming here that Quentyn flew off on Viserion, which is largely speculative, I know.)

Maybe sorting out the three heads of the dragon/three dragon riders will help to sort out the cryptic prophecies revealed to Dany at the House of the Undying, just as the fortune-teller's predictions to Cersei involved the fate of her three children.

I think Dany, so far, thinks the other dragonriders will be her natural allies. IIRC, at one point, she thinks that when she finds them, "it will be the three of them against the world", and they'll be the only people she will be able to fully trust.

This belief, IMO, stems from the fact that she feels the dragons will always be her children, and she trusts them. If they accept riders, they must be worthy and on Dany's side.

Whether she will feel the same after meeting the real dragonriders, and not the ones out of her head, remains to be seen.

As for Cersei, she probably feels her kid'd consorts are competition instead of allies because the concepts of "sharing power" and "trusting people that dont annihilate their individualities to worship you and kiss your ass as much as you think necessary, which is all the time" are allien to her.

Besides, she manipulates people through sex. Obviously her son's wives will try doing the same....

[XSarellaX]

Can I make a humble suggestion? When we get to Dany/Jon parallels, can we dedicate some time to discuss their similarities to Aegon V? I think of them everytime someone mentions his reforms for the smallfolk.

[MoIaF]

Can I make a humble suggestion? When we get to Dany/Jon parallels, can se dedicate some time to discuss their similarities to Aegon V? I think of them everytime someone mentions his reforms for the smallfolk.

It's not part of my analysis, however, I'll be happy to add it as a topic of conversation. I'll add a little blurb to my second essay discussing leadership.

[Parwan]

...Marg and Cersei both depend on males (Loras, Jaime),,,

This is basically true of Cersei, not so true of Margaery. She and her grandmother did a good job of getting rid of Joffrey. They didn't depend on any males to accomplish this. Littlefinger was in on the plot, but he wasn't essential to it.

(Edited for spelling)

[BearQueen87]

This is basically true of Cersei, not so true of Margaery. She and her grandmother did a good job of getting rid of Joffrey. They didn't depend on any males to accomplish this. Littlefinger was in on the plot, but he wasn't essential to it.

(Edited for spelling)

Hmm. Good point. Though, without Loras around, is Marg as powerful as she thought she was? Cersei seems to think that if she rid Marg of Lroas, she could take down Marg--though that could be Cersei's own skewed perception since without Jaime she is faltering quite a bit.

[Ser Creighton]

Hmm. Good point. Though, without Loras around, is Marg as powerful as she thought she was? Cersei seems to think that if she rid Marg of Lroas, she could take down Marg--though that could be Cersei's own skewed perception since without Jaime she is faltering quite a bit.

I think and I am not 100% on this, but Cersei was worried about Tommen and Loras because Tommen liked Loras, and Loras was the Kings personal guard and he was teaching him all about jousting and Cersei did not want him doing that.

The Queen of Thorns tends to run her house, but like a lot of players she uses people even her family. Though I am very curious as to LF's role in that. Because a lot of that was his plan and he is going to get something out of it. The Tyrells poisoned Joff, but it wass LF who used Sansa to smuggle in the poison and it was LF who had the poison made, he Dontos waiting to pull her out as soon as everything went down. The Tyrells wanted Joff gone, and wanted Marg and Tommen together. LF wanted Sansa, and Tyrion framed, so he could get her single. He expects Cersei to fall from Grace, but in the world both the Tyrells and LF know who killed Joff which means they are both a threat to eachother and it would be better if one side was dead. Anyway don't mean to hop off topic. I would say though that in a similar way both Cersei and Marg use their brothers, they just go about it in a different way. Cersei relies on a male on the throne, and so does Marg, weather it was Renly Joff or Tommen she has been relying on all them, her house ass well.

[BearQueen87]

I think and I am not 100% on this, but Cersei was worried about Tommen and Loras because Tommen liked Loras, and Loras was the Kings personal guard and he was teaching him all about jousting and Cersei did not want him doing that.

I agree that the Tommen factor is a big part of it but Cersei also realizes that Loras is keeping Marg protected when Marg says something like, "my brother keeps me well protected" and it reminds Cersei of her and Jaime and she suddenly realizes that she needs to send Loras away. And thus the DS stuff happens. Marg is safe so long as Loras is around because Loras is the one KG that Cersei can't control.

[Ser Creighton]

I agree that the Tommen factor is a big part of it but Cersei also realizes that Loras is keeping Marg protected when Marg says something like, "my brother keeps me well protected" and it reminds Cersei of her and Jaime and she suddenly realizes that she needs to send Loras away. And thus the DS stuff happens. Marg is safe so long as Loras is around because Loras is the one KG that Cersei can't control.

Yeah that's true, and why should Marg get to have her brother around when Cersei can't have hers around? Oh that's not fair, he must go. She also set up a plan to bait him into going on a high risk mission in which he could get killed.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I am glad you enjoyed but almost all of it came from Suzy' write up. Like I said I do not envy someone having to write about Cersei and Dany, they are 2 of the most complex characters and have complex motivations and she did a great job, her last two essays have given me a lot to think about.

Thank you so much :blushing: .

It was tough, these ladies could not be more different if they tried. Cersei is also like 20 years older than Dany, had a completely different upbringing, father and brother. There is not much to compare about them at all. I think most of their similarities are just happenstance anyway, like you could find some similarities between any 2 people if you look hard enough. The main reason is the inner monologue, Dany is a kind loving person and Cersei is not. Cersei uses everything and everyone to her advantage, Dany uses herself to help everything and everyone. All she wants is peace and a home, and all Cersei wants is to be sitting on the IT on top of a pile of skulls, with no one to question or bother her.

[Parwan]

I've thought some more about the "depend on males" issue, and I've decided that it is more complex than I originally believed. After all, everyone depends on lots of other individuals. In Westeros, many of these individuals are good at handling swords, but this does not mean that swordsmen rule. Varys had a point when he said that power is a shadow on the wall.

Discussing this matter could get us well off topic. I'll try to avoid that. I'll concentrate on Cersei and Dany, but I need to say a few things about other characters.

I think and I am not 100% on this, but Cersei was worried about Tommen and Loras because Tommen liked Loras, and Loras was the Kings personal guard and he was teaching him all about jousting and Cersei did not want him doing that.

The Queen of Thorns tends to run her house, but like a lot of players she uses people even her family. Though I am very curious as to LF's role in that. Because a lot of that was his plan and he is going to get something out of it. The Tyrells poisoned Joff, but it wass LF who used Sansa to smuggle in the poison and it was LF who had the poison made, he Dontos waiting to pull her out as soon as everything went down. The Tyrells wanted Joff gone, and wanted Marg and Tommen together. LF wanted Sansa, and Tyrion framed, so he could get her single. He expects Cersei to fall from Grace, but in the world both the Tyrells and LF know who killed Joff which means they are both a threat to eachother and it would be better if one side was dead. Anyway don't mean to hop off topic. I would say though that in a similar way both Cersei and Marg use their brothers, they just go about it in a different way. Cersei relies on a male on the throne, and so does Marg, weather it was Renly Joff or Tommen she has been relying on all them, her house ass well.

Considering mostly the bolded part: Determining Joff's true character and poisoning him showed good strategy. (Well, politically good. I'm not claiming it was a purely virtuous thing to do.). The details though--all the business with the hair net, Dontos, getting a young lady to escape through a large crowd who certainly knew who she is, going down a rather dangerous looking ladder...That's not a great plan. That's a Rube Goldberg Machine that just happened to work. One of the incidents that make little sense to me is the Queen of Thorns very publicly manipulating Sansa's hair net. How could she presume that this would not be remembered? Surely, there was a more secretive, and thus better, method of delivering the poison.

A matter more relevant to this thread--Cersei immediately declares that Joffrey was poisoned and accuses Tyrion and Sansa. This shows emotionalism and a tendency to jump to conclusions. As Prince Oberyn later points out, there are other likely culprits. Cersei just hates her brother more than the others.

I agree that the Tommen factor is a big part of it but Cersei also realizes that Loras is keeping Marg protected when Marg says something like, "my brother keeps me well protected" and it reminds Cersei of her and Jaime and she suddenly realizes that she needs to send Loras away. And thus the DS stuff happens. Marg is safe so long as Loras is around because Loras is the one KG that Cersei can't control.

Yeah that's true, and why should Marg get to have her brother around when Cersei can't have hers around? Oh that's not fair, he must go. She also set up a plan to bait him into going on a high risk mission in which he could get killed.

Giving credit where credit is due, Cersei shows an evil sort of cleverness here, and at other places in the story. This can't be said to depend on males.