The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[Parwan]

I forgot to include Daenerys in the post above.

She has her ways of working on people, for example the "just a young girl" ploy. Sometimes she uses this to good effect. An example is how she defuses an ugly situation that starts to develop when the Dornishmen arrive in the throne room in Meereen. Darario snatches the parchment from Quentyn's hand, and Barristan commands the sellsword to give the thing to the queen. Dany can feel the anger in the hall; she tells Daario that she is only a young girl and needs her gift.

Daenerys has no skill with sword or ax. She is definitely dependent on males in the beginning of the story, and she has some dependence on them throughout. However, in the matter of magic, she does not depend on anyone. She brought forth the dragons essentially on her own. In Daznak's Pit, she got Drogon to listen to her and rode away on him.

[BearQueen87]

Giving credit where credit is due, Cersei shows an evil sort of cleverness here, and at other places in the story. This can't be said to depend on males.

Not the way we originally described "dependent on males" above, no. BUT you could make a case that her evil sort of cleverness only stems from being raised a very evilly clever father. Without Tywin, would Cersei have thought up something like her DS plan for Loras?

I know it's a rather circular question, because isn't just a product of her male counterparts; she has agency all on her own, but is her evil cleverness (I like that, I'm going to keep using it) the result of her own cunning or just "what Tywin would do." And it's not localized to just Cersei, I'll be fair. Jaime and Tyrion both spend a lot of time in AFFC and ADWD wondering what their father would do.

[Ser Creighton]

I've thought some more about the "depend on males" issue, and I've decided that it is more complex than I originally believed. After all, everyone depends on lots of other individuals. In Westeros, many of these individuals are good at handling swords, but this does not mean that swordsmen rule. Varys had a point when he said that power is a shadow on the wall.

Discussing this matter could get us well off topic. I'll try to avoid that. I'll concentrate on Cersei and Dany, but I need to say a few things about other characters.

Considering mostly the bolded part: Determining Joff's true character and poisoning him showed good strategy. (Well, politically good. I'm not claiming it was a purely virtuous thing to do.). The details though--all the business with the hair net, Dontos, getting a young lady to escape through a large crowd who certainly knew who she is, going down a rather dangerous looking ladder...That's not a great plan. That's a Rube Goldberg Machine that just happened to work. One of the incidents that make little sense to me is the Queen of Thorns very publicly manipulating Sansa's hair net. How could she presume that this would not be remembered? Surely, there was a more secretive, and thus better, method of delivering the poison.

A matter more relevant to this thread--Cersei immediately declares that Joffrey was poisoned and accuses Tyrion and Sansa. This shows emotionalism and a tendency to jump to conclusions. As Prince Oberyn later points out, there are other likely culprits. Cersei just hates her brother more than the others.

Giving credit where credit is due, Cersei shows an evil sort of cleverness here, and at other places in the story. This can't be said to depend on males.

Not saying LF did not have a good plan at all, just saying he was very much a part of it and the planning. Though I do quesion using Dontos, Dontos could of backed out of the plan anytime he wanted and left Sansa high and dry.

As for Cersei and her plan, well it's a good plan for what Cersei wants, I would not say it is a good thing for Tommen and Lannister Tyrell relations. As LF and Tyrion basically point out, if left to her own devices, things are going to get really bad, which of course LF is hoping for.

In her world Cersei does have to rely on men for a lot of things. Not that she always wants too, but outside of Dorne that is just the way Westeros is. She relied on her father and brothers, even Tyrion. She relies a lot on Tommen for her power, she tried to use Joff but it did not really work and I don't blame her, because nothing really worked for anyone with Joff. Like with the Blackwater, it was not Cersei or Joff who prepared the defense of KL, it was Tyrion. Now she is forced to rely on men to do what she wants, but also she very much uses them like with Lancel and Kettleblack, Tommen, she tried to use Joff, Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin tended to be beyond her, but she tried. I am not saying Cersei is stupid, but she is manipulative, cruel, and greedy. I also find she makes excuses a lot and uses her kids for her own gains and calls it love. I don't know if sshe cried for Joff or for herself so to speak. I think Martin plays her as a Sociopath.

[XSarellaX]

On depending on males..

None of these women depend on men to make decisions, they're perfectly able to think on their own. It's just that without a man to grant them authority, they wouldn't be taken seriously. It would be much harder for them to be effective being queens on their own right, than it is by being married to/ mothers of the king.

Of course, a lot depends on the person, but men in this world trust other men more easily than they trust women, and they definitely don't see them as equals.

Margaery and her gramma can manipulate people, make their opinions known and hope someone will listen, become popular figureheads, but for all of their intelligence, they can only affect the matters of state in an indirect way, at least as long as there's a man in the family around.

Dany, however, has proven herself, she is the ultimate authority. Even Hizdhar can't completely overrule her. That's because, as discussed in the first essay, she gained power on her own, by unconventional means.

[BearQueen87]

Dany, however, has proven herself, she is the ultimate authority. Even Hizdhar can't completely overrule her. That's because, as discussed in the first essay, she gained power on her own, by unconventional means.

That's true, but by the same token, half of Meereen apparently won't take her seriously or even consider not over throwing/violent outbursts against her and her people without Hizdahr. If she was the ultimate authority, she wouldn't need Hizdhr at all.

[Seams]

I'm glad you've brought Tywin back into this, BearQueen87. As I've pondered the "dependent on men" notion, I was trying to compare the men in Cersei and Dany's lives, and the way the two women use or emulate these men. I'm still sorting out whether Cersei sees her father as a role model - she doesn't acknowledge wanting to be like him, although she does want to surpass him as a notable leader. Dany wants to know about her father but seems more interested in her brother, Rhaegar. People who knew Rhaegar compare Dany to him. No one compares Cersei to Tywin or to her brothers (except she looks like Jaime). Tyrion is compared to Tywin.

Their fathers were both allies and enemies. Aerys made Tywin his hand, but took Tywin's son and heir from him by making Jaime a member of the King's guard. And he rejected Cersei as a match for Rhaegar which was apparently a major goal of Tywin's. Tywin began to work with Rhaegar as Aerys' madness became more obvious and problematic, greatly angering Aerys. When the rebellion began, Tywin waited to see how things would go and then joined the rebels and ordered the death of Aerys' grandchildren. Both fathers were ruthless, and you could make the case that Tywin's ruthlessness was worse, as he was "in his right mind" when he ordered Ser Gregor to pillage and plunder the countryside.

Dany had two brothers; both are now dead. Cersei has two brothers, one of whom she wants dead and the other who is her mate as well as her brother. One of Cersei's brothers killed Dany's father; her other brother killed her own father. There's a symmetry here, but I don't yet know why except that these two families seem to be locked in a death struggle.

Dany had a husband she did not choose but who she grew to love. Cersei had a husband she did not choose and she loathed him. Dany found a way to transform her sex life by teaching her husband new things. Cersei barely tolerated sex with her husband and made sure he didn't impregnate her.

Their treatment and use of male advisers draws a contrast: Dany has a number of men who loyally support and advise her: Ser Jorah, her bloodriders, Ser Barristan, Grey Worm, maybe some others whose loyalty is undetermined. Cersei surrounds herself with dimwits (Osney Kettleblack) or works with people she inherited from her father and Tyrion's council but who are not loyal to her (Varys, Littlefinger) or actively rejects people who could be helpful allies (Mace Tyrell). Cersei burns down the Tower of the Hand, publicly displaying her intention to rule without a second-in-command. People she thought would be loyal to her end up turning on her (Lancel). Cersei uses sex as a form of barter to attract loyalists; Dany seems to have made a misstep by going in the direction of a politically expedient marriage in Meereen as well as falling for a hot-headed sellsword lover whose loyalty and intentions may not be entirely in her interests. My prediction is that she is going to recognize these as wrong moves and will set a course correction in the next book - perhaps reinstalling Ser Jorah as her closest adviser. (I think she's going to be unhappy with Ser Barristan's moves in her absence.)

It was the Cersei/Margaery discussion in this thread that led me back to Tywin, too. It seems like Cersei's vendetta against Margaery is like Tywin's attack on the Reyne family, in some ways. Tywin's wrath was motivated by the behavior of the ambitious Ellyn Reyne, who married Tywin's uncle and set herself up as the Lady of Casterly Rock although her father-in-law was still alive. I think Cersei may see Margaery as the equivalent of Ellyn Reyne, and herself as the new Tywin who will bring her down. On the other hand, because of her walk of shame from the sept to the Red Keep, I believe Cersei compared herself to her grandfather's mistress, who Tywin forced to walk out of Casterly Rock naked and humiliated after his father died. Does Cersei really win if she is cast in the role of Lord Tytos's outcast mistress? Is Margaery the equivalent of Ellyn Reyne, or is Cersei's behavior and life events closer to that upstart noblewoman? Will there be a new version of the flooding of Castamere in one of the upcoming books?

[Ser Creighton]

That's true, but by the same token, half of Meereen apparently won't take her seriously or even consider not over throwing/violent outbursts against her and her people without Hizdahr. If she was the ultimate authority, she wouldn't need Hizdhr at all.

Well the slavers take her very seriously as the green grace points out. It's just Dany wants different things then they want and they don't want to change, it's not because she is a woman, it's because they want slaves. She scares the shit out of Volantis just by existing. I am pretty sure if she was the new super powerful slaver queen they would adjust to her. In Dance the half the slavers are actually agiainst Hiz and do not take him seriously. Yunkai could give two shits about him and Selmy points out they would never pull that head trick with Dany. I mean being a woman ruler does not help, but there is no question they know she is powerful which is why all the slavers New Ghis, Yunkai, Volantiz, Qarth and the Sons are all trying to kill her. They do not think much of Hiz, they tried pushing him around and manipulating him and it worked pretty well.

ETA: When the slavers look at Dany the first thing they see is not a woman, they see a Dragon and they remember the Dragons, and the Dragons are scary.

[BearQueen87]

Well the slavers take her very seriously as the green grace points out. It's just Dany wants different things then they want and they don't want to change, it's not because she is a woman, it's because they want slaves. She scares the shit out of Volantis just by existing. I am pretty sure if she was the new super powerful slaver queen they would adjust to her. In Dance the half the slavers are actually agiainst Hiz and do not take him seriously. Yunkai could give two shits about him and Selmy points out they would never pull that head trick with Dany. I mean being a woman ruler does not help, but there is no question they know she is powerful which is why all the slavers New Ghis, Yunkai, Volantiz, Qarth and the Sons are all trying to kill her. They do not think much of Hiz, they tried pushing him around and manipulating him and it worked pretty well.

ETA: When the slavers look at Dany the first thing they see is not a woman, they see a Dragon and they remember the Dragons, and the Dragons are scary.

Okay that's fair. Though I'm not sure if they would "adjust" to her if she was of a similar mindset as them WRT slavery. They might be more accepting but they'd still try to "reign" her in with a proper King. Hiz is a puppet, I agree, but they'd probably pick someone a bit stronger than him to pair up with Dany to be a proper Harpy Queen.

in other words, they want to tame the dragon but they do so by treating her as a woman first.

[Kyoshi]

This raises an interesting point I hadn't considered: Cersei feels very threatened by the arranged marriages for which her children are destined. How will Dany feel about the others humans who are destined to ride her dragons? Is that the equivalent of an arranged marriage? Is she aware of the "dragon has three heads" language of the prophecy, and that each dragon usually bonds with only one rider? Will she be glad to have fellow dragon riders, or will she feel threatened?

Dany pretended to make a match for one of her dragons when she bought the Unsullied from Kraznys mo Nakloz. Once the slaver agrees that the deal is done, Dany tells him that dragons are not slaves, and Drogon burns Kraznys' face off. So we know that Dany does not see the dragons as things to be bartered away, as some Westerosi nobles seem to barter their children in arranged marriages.

Dany knows that dragons only bond to one rider, she tells Quentyn, which I believe was a motivating factor in his decision to steal one of the dragons. He wanted to prove himself to her because he believed she was encouraging him to do so...I sort of think there was something to his words.

I honestly think Dany would have a bigger problem with someone trying to claim Drogon from her.

EDIT: Excellent job, Suzanna. :cheers:

[MoIaF]

Very interesting topic and discussion on the male role of these female rulers.

As has been discussed Cersei derives her power from the males around her, this, however, doesn't exclude her from having power. Just because she derives it from her sons and her heritage (Tywin) she doesn't have her own brand of "evil cleverness" which she uses from time to time.

Just taking it back a bit, I think it's interesting to note the male (leader) influences of both these queens. Cersei grew up with Tywin as her father. Whether she actively sought it or not she learned from him a ruthlessness and deceitfulness that she herself employs. Her particular brand of ruling comes heavily tainted from that male influences, however, she doesn't have the intellect or cunning her father and therefore is unable to be an effective ruler. She's also so self involved that she can't stand to have competent people around her where her father would surround himself with competent people. She wants to surpass her father but she can't even get to his level.

Now looking at Dany the only true male influence she had was her brother Viserys. She was much too young I think to have drawn anything from her time living with Ser Darry. Her brother was paranoid, childish, mean, cruel, scared, no trait of which would be useful to Dany as a ruler. So, she didn't really have any male role models in essence she had to learn by doing the opposite of her brother. She's a very observant person so what she learned she learned from observing others.

So, they both sort of reject the "male models" they grew up with, Cersei out of ego and Dany out of necessity.

snip

It really is interesting how intertwined their stories are and how it's Cersei who is beginning to resemble Dany's father with her behavior.

[MoIaF]

BTW - I haven't heard from JCRB. Hopefully, she'll get back to me soon. I'll keep you guys posted.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hi, guys!

I'll be brief. I've been in the hospital since Saturday. I got a small surgery in my face due to a quite severe infection in a molar piece but doctors wanted me to stay until I was ok. I'm fine now and I've reborn from my ashes like an hypogriff*. And yes, during my recovery, I knew I got to post here :lol:

Give me a few days to go back to normal and post back my article. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Beard.

*I know hypogriffs don't do that but in GRRMverse, they kinda do and he's the boss... I think? :dunno:

[MoIaF]

Hi, guys!

I'll be brief. I've been in the hospital since Saturday. I got a small surgery in my face due to a quite severe infection in a molar piece but doctors wanted me to stay until I was ok. I'm fine now and I've reborn from my ashes like an hypogriff*. And yes, during my recovery, I knew I got to post here :lol:

Give me a few days to go back to normal and post back my article. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Beard.

*I know hypogriffs don't do that but in GRRMverse, they kinda do and he's the boss... I think? :dunno:

Yay! You survived and managed to be reborn. I'm impressed.

I'm glad you are doing better and take your time. We can wait for your awesomeness.

[Ser Creighton]

Hi, guys!

I'll be brief. I've been in the hospital since Saturday. I got a small surgery in my face due to a quite severe infection in a molar piece but doctors wanted me to stay until I was ok. I'm fine now and I've reborn from my ashes like an hypogriff*. And yes, during my recovery, I knew I got to post here :lol:

Give me a few days to go back to normal and post back my article. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Beard.

*I know hypogriffs don't do that but in GRRMverse, they kinda do and he's the boss... I think? :dunno:

Feel better JCRB, and when did we get to Hippogriffs? What is that like Part Hippo and part Young Griff, it's like a hippo centaur right? What happened to Gryphon's?

Oh and MoIaF, you know that duality thing I talk about occurring in the second phase? Check out Connington's sigil.

[BearQueen87]

Hi, guys!

I'll be brief. I've been in the hospital since Saturday. I got a small surgery in my face due to a quite severe infection in a molar piece but doctors wanted me to stay until I was ok. I'm fine now and I've reborn from my ashes like an hypogriff*. And yes, during my recovery, I knew I got to post here :lol:

Give me a few days to go back to normal and post back my article. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Beard.

*I know hypogriffs don't do that but in GRRMverse, they kinda do and he's the boss... I think? :dunno:

Take care!!! We'll wait for the essay :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh and MoIaF, you know that duality thing I talk about occurring in the second phase? Check out Connington's sigil.

That means Jon is a dual griffin... Arianne/Jon is coming(?!)

And it will be AWESOME.

[Ser Creighton]

That means Jon is a dual griffin... Arianne/Jon is coming(?!)

And it will be AWESOME.

It's also his Kung Fu technique, twin Gryphon style, Crouching Gryphon, Hidden Dragon. You might even say he has the Green Destiny.

[Kyoshi]

Feel better, JCRB. Glad to have you back.

[Seams]

Glad you're on the mend, JCRB. Take your time and get lots of rest.

While we wait for the discussion of the Walk of Shame vs. Walk of Triumph, maybe we can examine some details of the Dany / Cersei comparison to see if GRRM has hidden any clues for us to ponder.

Clothes - Both women have wardrobes rich in fabrics and choices. It seems to me that Dany is more often clothed in transparent or floating garments (partly due to the climate, I suppose) and Cersei is more often in opaque gowns. Of course, Dany is often naked or reveals a breast and feels best when she's wearing her Dothraki riding leathers. Maybe this clothing contrast is too obvious and no discussion is necessary. I always thought the scene where Cersei's dressmaker comes to measure Sansa reveals some things about Cersei and the future she plans for her soon-to-be good-sister:

"Your bosom will be as lovely as the queen's," the old woman said as she looped her string around Sansa's chest. "You should not hide it so."

The comment made her blush. Yet the last time she'd gone riding, she could not lace her jerkin all the way to the top, and the stableboy gaped at her as he helped her mount. Sometimes she caught grown men looking at her chest as well, and some of her tunics were so tight she could scarce breathe in them.

"What color will it be?" she asked the seamstress.

"Leave the colors to me, my lady. You will be pleased, I know you will. You shall have smallclothes and hose as well, kirtles and mantles and cloaks, and all else befitting a . . . a lovely young lady of noble birth."

(There's another one of those stableboys that seem to menace the Stark family, by the way.)

There's a bit of a contradiction here, it seems to me. Ladies cover up with complicated smallclothes, but all of the hidden architecture serves the goal of showing off Sansa's bosoms in the same way that the Queen's bosoms are made lovely using artificial supports. Maybe this is jumping the gun - I know that Cersei refers to her sagging breasts during her walk of shame, and that she concludes that the small folk will no longer respect her now that they have seen her sagging, aging body. I can wait if this is part of JCRB's upcoming essay.

It seems like Dany is constantly being washed by her handmaids whenever she changes outfits. I know there are probably bathing scenes for Cersei, but they are not as frequent as those for Dany.

Food - Dany often eats figs. Cersei gets a craving for boar but has to settle for domestic pork. I also remember a scene where she drinks lemon water to clean her teeth upon being awoken, but she doesn't like the taste. Is this a message intended to contrast Sansa's love for sweet lemon cakes with Cersei's spartan lemon water?

Taena of Myr - Is there an equivalent or similar character in Dany's entourage for Lady Merryweather? She's a bedmate for Cersei, which might suggest Dany's handmaid. (I think GRRM wants us to compare handmaids to Hands of the King, so Taena convincing Cersei to send away her own longtime handmaid might tend to support this.) But Taena also seems to bring out the worst in Cersei, which Dany's handmaids do not do. So maybe there is a parallel character among the nobles of Meereen; someone who plays a role in leading Dany down a bad path?

Taena may hold a clue to the clothing question as well, since she is from Myr and all the Westeros ladies are wild for Myrish lace. Maybe the lace on ladies' gowns symbolizes the contradictory revealing/hiding aspect when women engage in playing the Game of Thrones. Does the Queen of Thorns wear a lot of Myrish lace? It does seem that Taena's Essos background is significant in the Dany / Cersei comparison. Cersei's other big Essos interaction is her rejection of the envoy from the Bank of Braavos, and his demand for repayment of Baratheon debts.

Another random thought: Is the Merryweather name significant? Is Cersei's befriending of "Merry weather" symptomatic of her refusal to acknowledge that winter is coming?

Just a few ideas to fill the gap. Or maybe someone can come up with some better alternative topics.

[MoIaF]

Glad you're on the mend, JCRB. Take your time and get lots of rest.

While we wait for the discussion of the Walk of Shame vs. Walk of Triumph, maybe we can examine some details of the Dany / Cersei comparison to see if GRRM has hidden any clues for us to ponder.

Clothes - Both women have wardrobes rich in fabrics and choices. It seems to me that Dany is more often clothed in transparent or floating garments (partly due to the climate, I suppose) and Cersei is more often in opaque gowns. Of course, Dany is often naked or reveals a breast and feels best when she's wearing her Dothraki riding leathers. Maybe this clothing contrast is too obvious and no discussion is necessary. I always thought the scene where Cersei's dressmaker comes to measure Sansa reveals some things about Cersei and the future she plans for her soon-to-be good-sister:

Dany can "dress up" and she can "dress down" which is not something most ladies like or can do. In fact Dany probably feels the most comfort when dressed in her dressed down Dothraki clothing.

Food - Dany often eats figs. Cersei gets a craving for boar but has to settle for domestic pork. I also remember a scene where she drinks lemon water to clean her teeth upon being awoken, but she doesn't like the taste. Is this a message intended to contrast Sansa's love for sweet lemon cakes with Cersei's spartan lemon water?

And you know how much Dany LOVES her lemon trees. ;)

Another random thought: Is the Merryweather name significant? Is Cersei's befriending of "Merry weather" symptomatic of her refusal to acknowledge that winter is coming?

Just a few ideas to fill the gap. Or maybe someone can come up with some better alternative topics.

Merryweather makes me thing of "fair weather friends"