Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[Mychel_Redfort]

 

To be fair it is not like that comet actually had to wait 11 years between SoS and ADwD befor making its return. Does someone have the actual time that lapsed between the disappearance of the comet and the end of ADwD? It is fair to note that the comet would not have been visible for much of its entrance into the solar system.

I will look further into the timeline this evening, but let's compare with our solar system. Saturn is the last planet visible to the naked eye, and the comet is stated to be particularly bright. I would say that from Earth the comet would have been seen at least from Saturn's orbit to Venus's.

[Modesty Lannister]

I compliment the staggering amount of the work you have done. I am keeping an open mind about it as always.

There are things that I liked and agree with:

- the reversal of roles of a good and a bad guy in myths

- danger coming from Asshai, R'hllor and Quaithe

- potential Targaryen ancestry in Amethyst dynasty

There are things I think you (and all of us) should work on:

- bloodstone is obviously neither black, nor oily. Therefore, your argument there looks stretched and weak. There are more knowledgeable people on this forum than me when it comes to geology, but I'd say some of them have already pointed out to the weak link between the bloodstone and the oily black stone; to be honest, I am not sure why you want to fit it in your theory, but, as I say, I keep an open mind and will wait to see how you plan to fit it further

- I thought it was also weak when you attempted to reverse the gender roles at some point. I am sure with our thinking caps on, we may find something that fits better

- generally, I'd advise you to shorten your posts, because thematically speaking, this one touched upon too many things simultaneously. Hence, I am afraid the thread may become less focused. I'd advise more threads with a stronger thematic coherence.

- Maybe I am very stupid, but I could not fit your last long quote into your theory. So, it would help if you could add some explanations

- It is obvious that GRRM has been driving his inspiration from "earthy" mythology and religion. It is good to point this out, but I wouldn't count on GRRM sticking to it too firmly.

Now, some constructive input. This is my first reading of a very long OP, so I probably missed something and may get back to you if I did.

- you made a link between Lucifer and Venus that heralds dawn. That is a fine reading, but let me remind you that Venus and its famous transit symbolizes a "divine or sacred feminine".

You can read further about this astronomical phenomenon here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus

However, I urge you to have a look at the first photo offered in this link and see how that fits into your theory in which, if I understood it correctly, Venus is replaced by a comet. I'd say the photo is as close to the birth of dragons as you can get from NASA. :-)

So, bearing in mind the symbolism of the "divine feminine", I'd translate it to two Andal goddesses - the Mother and the Maid. Hence, Daenerys will represent the former while Brienne represents the latter.

You mentioned that Lucifer brought the enlightenment However, Brienne (like Duncan the Tall whose shield mysteriously ended up on the isle of Tarth) thinks of herself as stupid. She is sexually innocent. Her love and values are knightly. And she is humble. Hence, she fits the following verse:

Quote

"Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth." Mathew 5:5

So, she does not need an enlightenment through obtaining knowledge. Her knightly values (lost to most knights) are her enlightenment

On the other hand, Daenerys (the Mother) is no stranger to lust, revenge and everything derived from the word blood

- blood magic gave her dragons

- fire and blood is her sigil

- with her "first blood" came her marriage to Drogo

- she leaves a bloody trace behind her etc.

She seeks knowledge of her ancestral powers and history.

Both Daenerys and Brienne are coming from two islands that lie east from Westeros - Dragonstone and Tarth - like two aspects of "the morning star"

In that sense, Jaime, who comes from the far west of Westeros and Euron, who comes from the utmost western archipelago of Westeros and wants to marry Daenerys, should be regarded as their "divine or sacred male" counterpoints.

If we stick to Venus as "the morning star", it is obvious that Mars would be its celestial and mythological husband. Both Jaime and Euron fit the description of a God of War.

That's it from me for now. Over and out (while on a lookout).

[Mithras]

The Chamber of the Painted Table was dark and empty when Davos entered; the king would still be at the nightfire, with Melisandre and the queen’s men. He knelt and made a fire in the hearth, to drive the chill from the round chamber and chase the shadows back into their corners. Then he went around the room to each window in turn, opening the heavy velvet curtains and unlatching the wooden shutters. The wind came in, strong with the smell of salt and sea, and pulled at his plain brown cloak.

A reference to Eldric Shadowchaser?

At the north window, he leaned against the sill for a breath of the cold night air, hoping to catch a glimpse of Mad Prendos raising sail, but the sea seemed black and empty as far as the eye could see. Is she gone already? He could only pray that she was, and the boy with her. A half moon was sliding in and out amongst thin high clouds, and Davos could see familiar stars. There was the Galley, sailing west; there the Crone’s Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers’ stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.

But when he lowered his gaze from the sky to the castle ramparts, he was not so certain. The wings of the stone dragons cast great black shadows in the light from the nightfire. He tried to tell himself that they were no more than carvings, cold and lifeless. This was their place, once. A place of dragons and dragonlords, the seat of House Targaryen. The Targaryens were the blood of old Valyria . . .

The wind sighed through the chamber, and in the hearth the flames gusted and swirled. He listened to the logs crackle and spit. When Davos left the window his shadow went before him, tall and thin, and fell across the Painted Table like a sword. And there he stood for a long time, waiting. He heard their boots on the stone steps as they ascended. The king’s voice went before him. “. . . is not three,” he was saying.

These entire quotes speak of the AA myth.

“Distantly,” confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop-shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair,

“though I doubt that His Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour.” Plumm’s cloak was as purple as name, though frayed about the edges and badly dyed. A moonstone brooch big as a hen’s egg fastened it at the shoulder. Elsewise he wore dun-colored roughspun and stained brown leather.

Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.

They would share this space with Yezzan’s other treasures: a boy with twisted, hairy “goat legs,” a two-headed girl out of Mantarys, a bearded woman, and a willowy creature called Sweets who dressed in moonstones and Myrish lace.

Lysa, freshly scrubbed and garbed in cream velvet with a rope of sapphires and moonstones around her milk-white neck, was holding court on the terrace overlooking the scene of the combat, surrounded by her knights, retainers, and lords high and low.

Cressen looked over the knights and captains and lords sitting silent. Lord Celtigar, aged and sour, wore a mantle patterned with red crabs picked out in garnets. Handsome Lord Velaryon chose sea-green silk, the white gold seahorse at his throat matching his long fair hair. Lord Bar Emmon, that plump boy of fourteen, was swathed in purple velvet trimmed with white seal, Ser Axell Florent remained homely even in russet and fox fur, pious Lord Sunglass wore moonstones at throat and wrist and finger, and the Lysene captain Salladhor Saan was a sunburst of scarlet satin, gold, and jewels. Only Ser Davos dressed simply, in brown doublet and green wool mantle, and only Ser Davos met his gaze, with pity in his eyes.

Knowing that Joffrey would require her to attend the tourney in his honor, Sansa had taken special care with her face and clothes. She wore a gown of pale purple silk and a moonstone hair net that had been a gift from Joffrey.

King Joffrey followed on a tall grey palfrey, a golden crown set upon his golden curls. Sansa Stark rode a chesnut mare at his side, looking neither right nor left, her thick auburn hair flowing to her shoulders beneath a net of moonstones.

Queen Cersei studied her critically. “A few gems, I think. The moonstones Joffrey gave her.”

“At once, Your Grace,” her maid replied.

When the moonstones hung from Sansa’s ears and about her neck, the queen nodded.

Marillion was comely, there was no denying it; boyish and slender, with smooth skin, sandy hair, a charming smile. But he had made himself well hated in the Vale, by everyone but her aunt and little Lord Robert. To hear the servants talk, Sansa was not the first maid to suffer his advances, and the others had not had Lothor Brune to defend them. But Lady Lysa would hear no complaints against him. Since coming to the Eyrie, the singer had become her favorite. He sang Lord Robert to sleep every night, and tweaked the noses of Lady Lysa’s suitors with verses that made mock of their foibles. Her aunt had showered him with gold and gifts; costly clothes, a gold arm ring, a belt studded with moonstones, a fine horse. She had even given him her late husband’s favorite falcon. It all served to make Marillion unfailingly courteous in Lady Lysa’s presence, and unfailingly arrogant outside it.

“The man was craven, but the favor Lady Lysa showed him made him insolent. She dressed him like a lord, gave him gold rings and a moonstone belt.”

“What the kraken grasps it does not loose. These isles were once ours, and now they are again . . . but we need strong men to hold them. So rise, Ser Harras Harlaw, Lord of Greyshield.” The Knight stood, one hand upon Nightfall’s moonstone pommel.

She found the High Septon waiting for her in a small seven-sided audience chamber. The room was sparse and plain, with bare stone walls, a rough-hewn table, three chairs, and a prayer bench. The faces of the Seven had been carved into the walls. Cersei thought the carvings crude and ugly, but there was a certain power to them, especially about the eyes, orbs of onyx, malachite, and yellow moonstone that somehow made the faces come alive.

There is no mention of bloodstone in the main series or the D&E novellas but we have several references to moonstones.

[Ygritte]

As for the worldbook... I've been trying to tell folks they need to look harder it.... I chuckle when some dismiss it as being tertiary to the series, as if was just some money-grab coffee-table companion book. Ha. It's a complex series of puzzles wrapped enigmas wrapped in a fake history book.

I am convinced at this point that the MAIN reason this book exists is for the secrets. And the thing is, no matter how weird some of the worldbook stuff seems - he's actually laid it out in the text. The Great Empire of the Dawn emperors were cheering Dany on in book 1! We've been hearing about Azor Ahai since book 2, as well as Selkies and human hybrids and all the other bizarre stuff. Check out all the squishes talk from Dick Crabb in book 4. Wild! The first time we read this stuff, a lot of it goes right by the eyes and escapes notice. He's very subtle the way he distracts you and then slipped in information about something. Anyway. Yeah. The Worldbook. Tons more secrets in there, I've got a lot still to cover just off of the original set of discoveries I made. We still need to talk about what the Lightbringer swords were made out of exactly; what the moons are made of exactly, a bunch of eclipse related stuff, and then of course this is all leading to figuring out what happened at Battle Isle and the War for the Dawn. Ways to go yet. :)

Yes! I love this about the worldbook. I don't think everything in it is true, obviously, but I think it tells us where to look, if that makes sense.

I really love this. And if Dany is the Amethyst Empress, I find a couple of things interesting if we also run with Jon being AA. One is that he could, potentially, face a moment where he has to decide between following the AA myth (i.e. killing Dany) or not, with the stakes being a second Long Night. This is actually kind of the plot of GRRM's Armageddon Rag. Not in its particulars, I mean, but in the idea that what All The Myths Tell You To Do is maybe actually the evil thing.

And the words "Blood Betrayal" make me think of Dany's treason for blood. And I'm running with the assumption that Dany and Jon are related.

Great catch on the Brienne scene. And so Nimble Dick goes down to the underworld of weirwoods and dead kings, with two coins for the ferryman.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm not completely sure about the bloodstone theory either. My first question is that the one object that is claimed to be made out of a fallen star is Dawn. Which is described as being pale as milkglass.

As for the oily stone, I would note that when Theon arrives at Moat Cailin, he describes the giant basalt rocks as

Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others layed strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

[Mithras]

Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King’s Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted.

Another powerful passage.

[Han Snow]

Loved it.

[LmL]

I'm not married to BSE = AA, but I think it is likely, 60% or so.

As for AA being a bad guy, it is important to note here that if you told me that someone was Darth Vader reborn, my first reaction would be to think that was a bad thing. After all Darth Vader was a horrible bad guy. Then I would remember that the last thing Darth Vader did before he died was to save the life of his son and kill the ultimate bad guy of the galaxy. When we last saw Vader, he was at peace among the souls of Obi-wan and Yoda. AA was bad, probably, AAR does not need to be. Given that Juan Targaryen-Stark is likely AAR, I think this is worth noting. I think many of us are working under the assumption that AA was the Last Hero. If this is true we do know, or believe we know, that he was more or less defeated before being saved and aided by the CotF. This is a pretty big character arc, from the all powerful emperor of evil.

Agree with all that Durran, and those are fine points of nuance to add. I think thae Darth Vader example is apt - I expect to see at least one person “pull back from the brink” and decide NOT to do something bad, at the last minute. I also agree that its possible that AA / BSE did find redemption at the end of a long life of crime.. I think that’s extremely possible, because it would be a more complex character, which fits George’s m.o.

[deja vu]

..... We still need to talk about what the Lightbringer swords were made out of exactly; what the moons are made of exactly, ....

If the comet impact theory is correct, and the moon was round (rather than the baking potato-shaped moonlets of Mars), then...

• the moon would have had to be large enough to have substantially melted during the early history of the solar system,

melting would have resulted in a typical rocky planet internal structure - an iron rich core encased in more or fewer layers of basalt-like rocks. Think of a golf ball with a rubber ball at the center, only the ball is made of iron & nickel instead of rubber. Basalt is the type of volcanic lava/rock you see In Hawaii that is erupted from the Earth's (still hot) subsurface.

I've always thought that Valerian steel might be special because of it's high nickel content, owing to the metal coming from an iron-nickel meteorite. Seems like a no brainer.

[Durran Durrandon]

I will look further into the timeline this evening, but let's compare with our solar system. Saturn is the last planet visible to the naked eye, and the comet is stated to be particularly bright. I would say that from Earth the comet would have been seen at least from Saturn's orbit to Venus's.

Keep in mind, a comet is a tiny fraction of the size of Saturn, and likely wouldn't be visible until it was close enough in to have the sun to heat its ice into gas to form a tail. I would love to see what you come up with.

[LmL]

Wow, Harras Harlaw has a sword called "Nightfall" with a moonstone pommel. Hats a great one, Mithras.

If all moonstones look like Sansa's hairnet, MOONSTONES are dark PURPLE.

[deja vu]

I can tell I'll just expose my wet blanket-hood if I weigh in, knowing too much about mineralogy and not enough about psychic crystals and the like. Moonstone is just a variety of feldspar with a pearly luster.

[Mychel_Redfort]

If all moonstones look like Sansa's hairnet, MOONSTONES are dark PURPLE.

Be careful Sansa has two hair nets, the Dontos's one with the black amethysts from Asshai, and the Joffrey's one with the moonstones. I don't think we get a color for this one, only that Sansa wears it with a gown of pale purple silk.

[deja vu]

Be careful Sansa has two hair nets, the Dontos's one with the black amethysts from Asshai, and the Joffrey's one with the moonstones. I don't think we get a color for this one, only that Sansa wears it with a gown of pale purple silk.

Moonstones are not purple, but are the color of the moon - Earth's moon. Which means they are white.

[LmL]

Be careful Sansa has two hair nets, the Dontos's one with the black amethysts from Asshai, and the Joffrey's one with the moonstones. I don't think we get a color for this one, only that Sansa wears it with a gown of pale purple silk.

Ah ha. TY.

[Jon Fossoway]

Holy.

I am reading but I can´t resist to congratulate you, good Sir, one of the best and most articulate theories I´ve read.

[Mithras]

Here is another reference to the LN, AA, LB etc. from Brienne chapters.

The wood was too damp to light, no matter how many sparks Brienne struck off her flint and steel. The kindling sent up some smoke, but that was all. Disgusted, she settled down with her back to a rock, pulled her cloak over herself, and resigned herself to a cold, wet night. Dreaming of a hot meal, she gnawed on a strip of hard salt beef whilst Nimble Dick talked about the time Ser Clarence Crabb had fought the squisher king.

This is ltierally "amidst salt and smoke".

And Ser Clarence supposedly fought the squisher king. Which one is AA? Which one is the NK?

[Waters Gate]

I'm impressed with the stuff youre done on lucifer/Venus. There is a lot to read here and i'm not sure if i'm about to agree with all youre conclusions, but you deffinatly found a lot of stuff that got me convinced of it's value.

And i kinda feel lazy now. i have said it before, while i understand that Grrm is no scientist or astronomer and not too many scientific explenations should be sought for astral oddity's, that i believe things might be explained as "astromagical", and youre work further enforces this idea.

The way you connected Venus to Lucifer seems now to be only 1 side of the equasion though. Does he fit in the faith of the 7 too? Afterall, we get the impression that all of the 7 are planets, and now we might very well start to reconsider what they really represent given historical perceptions of it.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Keep in mind, a comet is a tiny fraction of the size of Saturn, and likely wouldn't be visible until it was close enough in to have the sun to heat its ice into gas to form a tail. I would love to see what you come up with.

Concerning the timeline : the first spotting of the comet happens in Game 72, Dany X, though it's first mentioned in the book in Game 66, Bran VII, so the chapters are not in chronological order. The Most Precise Timeline places these chapters at the end of 01/299.

The last spotting is harder to find. A search with "comet" gives Clash 20, Tyrion V, placed on 28/03/299. There's also a mention in Clash 11, Theon I, placed on 25/03/299. The Great Ranging in the Haunted Forest seems to be out of synch with the other plotlines, so the comet's mention in Clash 13, Jon II, is placed by the MPT on 21/04/299. But there's a later spotting, in Clash 34, Jon IV, not of the comet but of "the long red tail of Mormont's Torch burn(ing) as bright as the moon" placed on 05/07/299. Though it's less mentioned the comet still burns bright at this moment, so it's hard to say when it stopped to be visible because it came too close of the sun.

Now the last Barristan chapter in Dance is placed in the timeline on 18/07/300, more than a year after the last spotting in the books. In my opinion, that seems too long, but I'm not a specialist, so I'll let better posters than me on astronomy give their opinions.

[Ygritte]

Concerning the timeline : the first spotting of the comet happens in Game 72, Dany X, though it's first mentioned in the book in Game 66, Bran VII, so the chapters are not in chronological order. The Most Precise Timeline places these chapters at the end of 01/299.

The last spotting is harder to find. A search with "comet" gives Clash 20, Tyrion V, placed on 28/03/299. There's also a mention in Clash 11, Theon I, placed on 25/03/299. The Great Ranging in the Haunted Forest seems to be out of synch with the other plotlines, so the comet's mention in Clash 13, Jon II, is placed by the MPT on 21/04/299. But there's a later spotting, in Clash 34, Jon IV, not of the comet but of "the long red tail of Mormont's Torch burn(ing) as bright as the moon" placed on 05/07/299. Though it's less mentioned the comet still burns bright at this moment, so it's hard to say when it stopped to be visible because it came too close of the sun.

Now the last Barristan chapter in Dance is placed in the timeline on 18/07/300, more than a year after the last spotting in the books. In my opinion, that seems too long, but I'm not a specialist, so I'll let better posters than me on astronomy give their opinions.

I actually think Barristan's just seeing the sunrise, though his thoughts still fit the comet metaphorically.