Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium

[Modesty Lannister]

I would add that if in fact the Oily black structures, are primarily basalt, then that does support your notion that they could be moon rocks, since moon rocks are primarily basalt. So the question would be what is causing them to look oily?

I totally agree with you and I'd say that blood magic (sacrifice) is causing them to look oily just like blood magic is causing weirwood trees to seemingly cry red tears.

[Durran Durrandon]

Just a side note here, while the association between the sun being male and the moon being female is common, it is by no means universal. There are several cultures where this is inverted, the sun's life giving qualities being associated as female and the moon at a quarter full being associated with the horns of a bull.

[LmL]

I thought of this too, ancient civilizations built their structures from fallen black stone by carving it, then Valyrians or proto-Valyrians started making their own greasy black stone by fusing it essentially by recreating conditions of atmospheric entry by magic and dragonfire, then they became better at it and started making ornate shapes out of it.

Also just to pitch in about Lucifer, he is not really Lucifer his name was translated in Latin, his original name in Hebrew is Helel, the same morningstar deity that you have mentioned. Also in Bible devil is called by bunch of other names so Lucifer doesn't mean much, it was just one of the name of the Baal supreme god of pagans surrounding Israel that was used to denote devil like Baal, Beelzebub, Belphegor and such. Other names used to denoted devil are Levithian who is the great sea dragon wrecking destruction and Astaroth after goddess Astarte (gender swap, see) who also

And her statue also has amethyst eyes http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Statuette_Goddess_Louvre_AO20127.jpg/640px-Statuette_Goddess_Louvre_AO20127.jpg

Oh very nice Equilibrium! I think I knew most of this waaay in the back of my mind but it's been pushed out by trying to learn everything about a certain fantasy series... Anyway. Very nice find indeed - the Astarte stuff especially. Ba'al and Astarte are on of the very oldest pairs of god-forms, and it is Astarte who resurrects Ba'al each spring. Given that I think Garth played a major role in the events around the War for the Dawn, this is fitting. Amethysts, look at that.

As for the Hebrew stuff about Helel, I did know that but was trying to keep that section as simple as possible. It fits in with what I was saying though about Yaweh's followers becoming intolerant of other religions and deities - they just labelled everyone else's god as another name for Satan. It's a great example of political motivations warping and twisting mythology, specifically in the way that benign pagan deities become labelled as demonic, and decades and centuries later... it worked. Everyone is afraid of these forms, even they are among the oldest and most sacred of all human beliefs that we know of. Then their idea of the "one God" becomes the only hero - just as Azor Ahai has become to the Red Priests.

As for the dragonflame and greasy stone - I like the way you put that. I'm sort of starting to hone in on this idea that the two are related but different.. Interesting to think of one being done in imitation of the other... Only thing is, I think the Five Forts and Hightower Fort (both fused stone, meaning dragonflame) were both built pre-LN, so if the greasy stone is from the explosion of the moon which happened at the beginning of the LN, that's doesn't wash. Dragonflame construction dates back to the GEotD. Perhaps that came first, but the heated and radiated bloodstone of the moon explosion was like a twisted, uncontrolled form of a similar process. Which explains why it is now "un-healing," instead of healing.

[LmL]

I totally agree with you and I'd say that blood magic (sacrifice) is causing them to look oily just like blood magic is causing weirwood trees to seemingly cry red tears.

That's a good magical explanation for this "magical" form of bloodstone. Good comparison to the Weirwoods. :)

[LmL]

Just a side note here, while the association between the sun being male and the moon being female is common, it is by no means universal. There are several cultures where this is inverted, the sun's life giving qualities being associated as female and the moon at a quarter full being associated with the horns of a bull.

True enough, I should have said this more clearly. While the sun is usually male, you're right that it's by no means unanimous, and many do see it the other way. The Ba'al / sacred bull connection to the moon is going to be important as we get to Garth.

[Modesty Lannister]

That's a good magical explanation for this "magical" form of bloodstone. Good comparison to the Weirwoods. :)

No. It doesn't work on bloodstone. These rocks are pitch black. Bloodstone isn't no matter how you want to stretch it and no matter what symbolism about it you found. It just doesn't fit. Frey family reunion suggested basalt that fits much better. Maybe some expert on geology might find an even better fit, but that is just not bloodstone.

As GRRM said through Val (I think) in the books - Magic is like a sword without a handle. It can go both ways. The same applies to mythology. You can make it fit if you try hard enough. You have a good theory going with a double moon and a comet. Why you insist on bloodstone is beyond me. It does not fit several different accounts from the books as several posters have suggested.

As for blood magic, it is pretty simple. Sacrifice is necessary to activate magical properties of a magical medium, innate or living. Bran was sacrificed (thrown off a tower) and that awoke his abilities. Arya watched her mother and brother being sacrificed to Freys and that awoke her magical abilities. Weirwood trees become magical after a sacrifice is made to them - Brans sees it, Brienne does it. "Only death can pay for life". Only sacrifice can produce magic, which is unstable always. The idea and symbolism of black and white persist throughout the books. Examples are many. So, it is not a stretch to oppose weirwoods to oily black stones. But, they have an opposite purpose and serve opposed goals. No wonder one is linked to the Ironborn and the Citadel while the other is linked to the FM and CotF. These have been a warring parties for many centuries. And will be again and soon.

[Equilibrium]

Oh very nice Equilibrium! I think I knew most of this waaay in the back of my mind but it's been pushed out by trying to learn everything about a certain fantasy series... Anyway. Very nice find indeed - the Astarte stuff especially. Ba'al and Astarte are on of the very oldest pairs of god-forms, and it is Astarte who resurrects Ba'al each spring. Given that I think Garth played a major role in the events around the War for the Dawn, this is fitting. Amethysts, look at that.

As for the Hebrew stuff about Helel, I did know that but was trying to keep that section as simple as possible. It fits in with what I was saying though about Yaweh's followers becoming intolerant of other religions and deities - they just labelled everyone else's god as another name for Satan. It's a great example of political motivations warping and twisting mythology, specifically in the way that benign pagan deities become labelled as demonic, and decades and centuries later... it worked. Everyone is afraid of these forms, even they are among the oldest and most sacred of all human beliefs that we know of. Then their idea of the "one God" becomes the only hero - just as Azor Ahai has become to the Red Priests.

As for the dragonflame and greasy stone - I like the way you put that. I'm sort of starting to hone in on this idea that the two are related but different.. Interesting to think of one being done in imitation of the other... Only thing is, I think the Five Forts and Hightower Fort (both fused stone, meaning dragonflame) were both built pre-LN, so if the greasy stone is from the explosion of the moon which happened at the beginning of the LN, that's doesn't wash. Dragonflame construction dates back to the GEotD. Perhaps that came first, but the heated and radiated bloodstone of the moon explosion was like a twisted, uncontrolled form of a similar process. Which explains why it is now "un-healing," instead of healing.

Thanks I am glad you agree.

About pre and post LN stone I had a longstanding theory which I re-purposed now for the sake of current narrative and in light of new discoveries. Empire of Dawn did in fact produce plain black stone structures. When LN hit dragons survived only at 14 Flames, but with them survived some members of amethyst-eyed dynasty after LN Valyrian shepherds found them (they found the dragons but dragonlords-Targs were also referred to as dragons) and they became their ruling class leading Valyrians to emulate them and magic themselves with purple eyes and silver-gold hair (I think Valyrians changing their appearance via magic is almost canon) they thought them all they knew and with time new and unique Valyrian culture emerged.

Another catch I got just now. Seeing LB is red comet to which closest real world parallel is Venus and

In Chinese astrology, Venus is associated with the element metal, which is unyielding, strong and persistent

Which is exactly how one of the AA candidates is described.

Also one of the names for Satan is Thief which is also wildling constellation, so there might be something to it, also this usage appears only in Gospel by John same as the wildling constellation is only mentioned in Jon's POV.

He is also called Roaring Lion which is link with Lion of the Night but also envokes Lannisters in mind, especially with well established connection of Satan to wealth

[Mychel_Redfort]

Also one of the names for Satan is Thief which is also wildling constellation, so there might be something to it, also this usage appears only in Gospel by John same as the wildling constellation is only mentioned in Jon's POV.

The Thief is not a constellation but "the red wanderer that septons preach is sacred to their Smith", so a planet. The color red points to Mars or Jupiter, but Mars would more likely be sacred to the Warrior.

[Equilibrium]

The Thief is not a constellation but "the red wanderer that septons preach is sacred to their Smith", so a planet. The color red points to Mars or Jupiter, but Mars would more likely be sacred to the Warrior.

Right man, I didn't double-checked.

[LmL]

No. It doesn't work on bloodstone. These rocks are pitch black. Bloodstone isn't no matter how you want to stretch it and no matter what symbolism about it you found. It just doesn't fit. Frey family reunion suggested basalt that fits much better. Maybe some expert on geology might find an even better fit, but that is just not bloodstone.

As GRRM said through Val (I think) in the books - Magic is like a sword without a handle. It can go both ways. The same applies to mythology. You can make it fit if you try hard enough. You have a good theory going with a double moon and a comet. Why you insist on bloodstone is beyond me. It does not fit several different accounts from the books as several posters have suggested.

As for blood magic, it is pretty simple. Sacrifice is necessary to activate magical properties of a magical medium, innate or living. Bran was sacrificed (thrown off a tower) and that awoke his abilities. Arya watched her mother and brother being sacrificed to Freys and that awoke her magical abilities. Weirwood trees become magical after a sacrifice is made to them - Brans sees it, Brienne does it. "Only death can pay for life". Only sacrifice can produce magic, which is unstable always. The idea and symbolism of black and white persist throughout the books. Examples are many. So, it is not a stretch to oppose weirwoods to oily black stones. But, they have an opposite purpose and serve opposed goals. No wonder one is linked to the Ironborn and the Citadel while the other is linked to the FM and CotF. These have been a warring parties for many centuries. And will be again and soon.

First of all, which is more important to George Martin, symbolism, or geological accuracy? I'm pretty sure he chose to call it bloodstone because of the like 17 different symbolic connotations that completely fit the story. I should ignore that becaue you don't think very dark green and black could be confused for one another? There's no way for that to work, I should just drop it and all that seemingly intentional symbolism??? That's just not how I am interpreting this, at all.

Should I forget the fact that Azor Ahai, who I have tried to prove is the BSE, is from Asshai, the nexus of greasy black stone? You don't think there's some kind of connection between greasy stone and the Bloostone Emperor?

It does not describe the great black stone as "pitch black" - those are your words. It looks like it has an oily sheen - that implies green highlights. Anyone can google bloodstone and see that it can in fact appear black, and does not always have the red inclusions. Furthermore, melting it down via magical explosion and / or vitrification is a perfectly plausible theory to explain its current appearance. It's okay if you don't like it - it's only a theory, it could be wrong.

Any black vitrified stone could really be described as "wet looking" or "greasy looking." Also, the moon may be composed of more than one type of rock. Maybe not all of it was radiated. There are a lot of possibilities, but I am following the symbolism and the narrative themes first of all, and looking for geology that fits as a complement. To rigidly follow the literal scientific details and try to predict the story based on that would be an erroneous approach. That's kind of thinking that takes a fabulous writing on the connections between Norse mythology and ASOIAF and turns it into a somewhat wacky prediction that Tommen is the Prince Who was Promised, which makes no sense narratively.

I'm not by any means 100% positive that all the black greasy stone is moon rock - I'm keeping an open mind. But I "insist" upon including it in my hypothetical theory because that's where the symbolism and clues point to, and the geology makes sense too if you allow for the creative license of a fantasy author loosely basing his magic on geology and astronomy. I'm hoping that through crowd sourcing these questions, maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

[LmL]

Pictures of bloodstone looking black and greasy:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quarz_-_Heliotrop_(Blutjaspis).JPG

http://www.crystalage.com/img/products/bloodstone-crystal-heart_1.jpg

https://img1.etsystatic.com/018/2/9247492/il_340x270.573569027_reo2.jpg

http://healyourlifeforever.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bloodstone.jpg

[Modesty Lannister]

Look, you put your theory out there to be debated. So, you have to deal with those of us who do not agree on everything you write. I have already said that I think bloodstone is the weakest link in your theory. And I am not the only one pointing this out on this thread. We are discussing with open minds. My mind cannot mix dark green and black. GRRM is a very precise writer. If he says black, it's black. Bloodstone is not black and it does have other colours dotted around. Don't you think the author would have mentioned this? Yet, he mentions only black. Basalt seems to fit the description and it does not go against your comet hits a moon theory at all. It does not fit the symbolism your constructed around it, but it might. We never got into the symbolism of basalt at all.

I'll give you just one such explanation from the web.

I think you are confusing bloodstone as a name of a stone in real life and bloodstone as a name for black rocks GRRM is describing. Bloodstone in GRRM world can also mean a magical stone activated by blood (sacrifice) and it is black and oily, because its magic is directly opposed to the magic of weirwoods, which are white and weep blood (a red substance anyway). So, imho black stones symbolise black magic while weirwoods symbolise white magic. And the difference is its intent. However, I may not be right at all. Their magic may be quite complementary.

Weirwood trees DO NOT EXIST in our world. Why would black oily stones exist in our world at all? But, if we are searching for a stone from our world that does resemble what GRRM described, basalt fits it better.

As I said before, I am not even sure that all types of black stone mentioned in TWOIAF are one and the same.

We all have complex theories and when we put them to test, some things fit and some don't. If several posters point to something and they are not trolling, but giving a constructive input, I'd listen. I'm not saying I am right. I cannot say you are right. Only GRRM knows who is right if anyone. But, the purpose of any debate is to detect weak links and improve them. That way we all win.

[Modesty Lannister]

Pictures of bloodstone looking black and greasy:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quarz_-_Heliotrop_(Blutjaspis).JPG

http://www.crystalage.com/img/products/bloodstone-crystal-heart_1.jpg

https://img1.etsystatic.com/018/2/9247492/il_340x270.573569027_reo2.jpg

http://healyourlifeforever.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bloodstone.jpg

Sorry, they don't. They look dark green speckled with red.

[Nozlym]

Sorry, they don't. They look dark green speckled with red.

depends if the rocks have been polished or not.

if thats the original state then yes they look greasy

[Han Snow]

Sorry, they don't. They look dark green speckled with red.

I'm seeing black and blue. But if I squint white and gold.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm seeing black and blue. But if I squint white and gold.

Post of the day. I still think everyone who saw the dress as blue and black were just trolling me.

[Equilibrium]

Post of the day. I still think everyone who saw the dress as blue and black were just trolling me.

Yeah me too, it's so white and gold that I can even comprehend how it can be black and blue

[Han Snow]

Post of the day. I still think everyone who saw the dress as blue and black were just trolling me.

Same. That is basic human nature. Take this great thread for example, so much to decipher, so much to discuss...and then I remember we are not analysing actual history, real myths passed on from generation to generation, perverted along the way. Nope. What we are doing is psychoanalysing one man's mind. I'm convinced though, that the mind is a genuine treasure trove, but every now and then a nasty thought occurs: What if he's trolling us? :P

[Ygritte]

The Thief is not a constellation but "the red wanderer that septons preach is sacred to their Smith", so a planet. The color red points to Mars or Jupiter, but Mars would more likely be sacred to the Warrior.

That makes sense, as it's "in the Moonmaid" and I assume the Moonmaid, despite its name, is a constellation, and so as the planet appears to move through the sky, it goes "into" constellations just like our own astrology.

Try as I might, I can't quite make the Seven fit the seven classical "wanderers." I always end up with some bad fits, if I try to make them match archetypally:

Sun: Probably the Father, but the Father could also be Jupiter

Moon: Either the Maid or the Mother

Mercury: Most likely the Smith

Venus: Either the Maid or the Mother

Mars: Warrior, but the quote suggests it might be the Smith instead

Jupiter: See Sun

Saturn: Crone or Stranger

So no matter what I do with them, I end up with either the Sun or Jupiter having to be the Crone or Stranger, and to me they just don't fit there at all. So if the seven gods are the seven wanderers, they may not match the associated archetypes from Earth.

[Equilibrium]

With all the talk of Morning stars I decided to search the books for "morningstars" to see if there are any hints there. Morningstars where very popular weapons and with rise of the plate armor they became even more popular, especially among knights combating other knights because of the great blunt force for bludgeoning enemy combined with plate piercing spikes. For such useful weapon morningstars gets few mentions, 19 in all the books combined (ASOIAF, D&E, TWOIAF, Princess and Queen and Rogue Prince). In Westeros lots of examples involve morningstars on chain which were so uncommon in Middle Ages that some historians suspect they didn't exist, museum items being 18th century creations based on imagination like iron maidens and chastity belts. So we get flails (very different then morningstar on chain) and morningstars sometimes used interchangeably even on same scene, and sometimes even maces appear but whole group is notoriously underrepresented.

Notable examples of characters interacting with morningstars are

- Brienne, yes she won the melee against Loras with morningstar, but she also defeated Shagwell armed with morningstar using Oathkeeper.

- Dunk too fought against morningstar wielded by Aerion Brightflame.

- Tyrion, he almost died by it on two occasions. First, Harrenhal knight almost struck him by accident in fight on the way to Eyrie, and second Northman wounded him in Battle of Green Fork. When in Second Sons armory he pick up morningstar but leaves it because it is too heavy.

- Arya, Eddard said that if he took Needle away from her he would soon find morningstar under her pillow. Also Jon describes her flailing with doll as with morningstar which he compares to Wun Wun flailing with dead knight.

- Dontos hits Sansa with "morningstar" with melon for a head

- Loras rushed through dragon's mouth at siege of Dragonstone wielding morningstar. Tommen wants to learn to fight like Loras and mentions morningstar

- Jon arms villagers at Castle Black with weapons from armory morningstar mentioned.

- Little Sand Snake Dorea knocks oranges from trees with her morningstar (not blood-oranges to my great disappointment)

- Characters mentioned as good with morningstar Artys Arryn (Andal one), Balon Swan, and Criston Cole mentioned as such two times with additional mention how he knocked Dark Sister from Daemon Targaryen at tourney with ms.

- Daeron Targaryen one from the first Dance is maybe killed by morningstar.

- And lastly get this there was Gardner king Garth VI Morningstar

Oh and another thing which relates to first theory and is hilariously coincidental is weapon from ancient Far East called meteor hammer which consists of two balls connected by chain used for striking, there is also fire meteor with bowls of fuel at each end which are then set ablaze making it look like two meteors.