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Was fAegon’s looks a gamble?


Mithras

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Some people criticize fake Aegon theories (at least the ones with Illyrio being the biological father of the boy) by claiming that the Valyrian looks of fAegon was never guaranteed, so this conspiracy should fail. Indeed, what if the boy was born with common features?



This is where TWOIAF steps in. At one of those conventions before the release of the Worldbook, it was reported that Visenya was implied to use magic in the conception of Maegor Targaryen. This bit was removed from TWOIAF but we will probably read it in Fire & Blood.



However, many facts supporting this idea are still in the book, such as the anomalies about Maegor. He had an immensely powerful stature, as if making heavy use of steroids. Of course the counterpart of steroids is magic in ASOIAF. It is perfectly proved that Maegor’s seeds were corrupt (for lack of a better word). Some of his wives were known to give birth to normal kids but with Maegor, they gave birth to a bunch of “things” that could hardly be considered as humans.



There is also a long list of atrocities done by the Valyrians in the Worldbook. They were into some kind of twisted genetic engineering fueled by bloodmagic. Many of the mysterious races result from such sick experiments involving interbreeding their slaves/convicts with beasts, examples including but not limited to the Brindled Men (brindled wyverns + humans), lizard-men (reptiles + humans), eyeless cave-dwellers/winged men (bats + humans) and so on.



Therefore, if there was someone who knew the necessary magic, it could have been guaranteed that fAegon could be born with necessary Valyrian features.



And the person who carried out the magic can be none other than good old Varys.


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:rolleyes:

Is there any reason to believe that tale of Varys?

The fact he's noted in speaking in a very unusual manner, making one of the most skeptical POV characters/GRRM's proxy in the series believe him should count for something.

Also, regarding the rest of your theory, they didn't bring (f)Aegon to JonCon for a few years, so it's likely they waited to make sure the kid had the right Valyrian features before proceeding. Had he not, they could have just gone with Plan Viserys to have their puppet on the throne.

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That's an interesting point about blood magic being used for genetic engineering. It's a useful fact, but I have to disagree that it would be Varys doing it. If that really is the case, where Aegon is fake and magic was used to make his appearance traditionally Valyrian, I think they would be more likely to pay/force someone else to do it. It sounds like complex magic, like stuff shadowbinders from Asshai would know and Varys hates magic. In that case, why not just find someone from Lys with Valyrian looks? Doing bloodmagic just to make sure someone looks Valyrian sounds way too complicated, and what person would do that to their own son, since Illyrio does care for the boy.

The fact he's noted in speaking in a very unusual manner, making one of the most skeptical POV characters/GRRM's proxy in the series believe him should count for something.

Also, regarding the rest of your theory, they didn't bring (f)Aegon to JonCon for a few years, so it's likely they waited to make sure the kid had the right Valyrian features before proceeding. Had he not, they could have just gone with Plan Viserys to have their puppet on the throne.

I don't think there ever was a Plan Viserys. He wasn't raised to be a ruler the way Aegon was. He was unruly, stupid, and cruel, and had no one to teach him and look out for him the way Aegon did. It's a pretty pathetic Plan B, but it makes me wonder why they bothered with Viserys and Daenerys at all, instead of just leaving them to their own devices.

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I don't think there ever was a Plan Viserys. He wasn't raised to be a ruler the way Aegon was. He was unruly, stupid, and cruel, and had no one to teach him and look out for him the way Aegon did. It's a pretty pathetic Plan B, but it makes me wonder why they bothered with Viserys and Daenerys at all, instead of just leaving them to their own devices.

i think that all went haywire when Ser Darry died, unexpectedly...

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I thought that Valyrian looking orphans were a dime a dozen somewhere like Volantis. If Varys practices blood magic, he'd have far more useful applications than manufacturing a Targ.



He could put spells and hexes on those lords that are truly loyal to Tommen. And he knows who they are. He could give Randyll Tarly such intestinal complaints, that he would often be absent from the battlefield.

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Some people criticize fake Aegon theories (at least the ones with Illyrio being the biological father of the boy) by claiming that the Valyrian looks of fAegon was never guaranteed, so this conspiracy should fail. Indeed, what if the boy was born with common features?

This is where TWOIAF steps in. At one of those conventions before the release of the Worldbook, it was reported that Visenya was implied to use magic in the conception of Maegor Targaryen. This bit was removed from TWOIAF but we will probably read it in Fire & Blood.

However, many facts supporting this idea are still in the book, such as the anomalies about Maegor. He had an immensely powerful stature, as if making heavy use of steroids. Of course the counterpart of steroids is magic in ASOIAF. It is perfectly proved that Maegor’s seeds were corrupt (for lack of a better word). Some of his wives were known to give birth to normal kids but with Maegor, they gave birth to a bunch of “things” that could hardly be considered as humans.

There is also a long list of atrocities done by the Valyrians in the Worldbook. They were into some kind of twisted genetic engineering fueled by bloodmagic. Many of the mysterious races result from such sick experiments involving interbreeding their slaves/convicts with beasts, examples including but not limited to the Brindled Men (brindled wyverns + humans), lizard-men (reptiles + humans), eyeless cave-dwellers/winged men (bats + humans) and so on.

Therefore, if there was someone who knew the necessary magic, it could have been guaranteed that fAegon could be born with necessary Valyrian features.

And the person who carried out the magic can be none other than good old Varys.

There is another possibility that no matter how difficult it is to believe, it must be considered, because even through all of the magic and scheming, there is still Ocam's razor, and GRRM is an amazing author, with an attention to detail rivaled only by the greatest authors in history

The Aegon/Young Griff presented to us the reader is in fact Rhaegar's trueborn son and Heir to the seven Kingdoms

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The bloodmagic in genetic engineering not only can affect the physical appearance, but also the conception itself. Illyrio looks like an old man. The bloodmagic can explain how he could father fAegon at a narrow time period and although he was relatively old at that time.



Another fact is that Maegor matured very fast. He looked older and bigger than he should appear.



Maegor, on the other hand, was defeating hardened knights in the mêlée when he was all of three-and-ten, and quickly won renown in the royal tourney of 28 AC when he defeated three knights of the Kingsguard in succession in the lists, and went on to win the mêlée. He was knighted by King Aegon at six-and-ten, the youngest knight in the realm at that time.


We never heard something even similar to this. No thirteen years old boy could defeat hardened knights in the melee.

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I don't know, I think it was more like a calculated risk. Assuming I + S = A, then people probably expected the kid to look Valyrian-ish.

Hell, now that I think about it, I don't believe any magical genetic engineering is required. You want a kid with Valyrian features and have enough money to pay for it? Go to Lys, easy as that

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If Varys is so good with magic, why dosen't he use it to rid the Lannister-Tyrells of any competent comanders they have? Or kill Tommen with it? I really don't but the "Varys is a magician" stuff since there were many times when Varys could have used magic to his advantage and didn't.


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I don't know, I think it was more like a calculated risk. Assuming I + S = A, then people probably expected the kid to look Valyrian-ish.

Hell, now that I think about it, I don't believe any magical genetic engineering is required. You want a kid with Valyrian features and have enough money to pay for it? Go to Lys, easy as that

Yeah, I agree with this.

Besides, if Aegon was real, he probably could've had Dornish features, no? Unless Valyrian features always win out (somehow), in which case, no, it wouldn't be a risk at all, because all children from people who look Valyrian would also look Valyrian.

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I don't know, I think it was more like a calculated risk. Assuming I + S = A, then people probably expected the kid to look Valyrian-ish.

Hell, now that I think about it, I don't believe any magical genetic engineering is required. You want a kid with Valyrian features and have enough money to pay for it? Go to Lys, easy as that

But they want to see their own blood on the IT, not some random bastard of a whore.

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Yeah, I agree with this.

Besides, if Aegon was real, he probably could've had Dornish features, no? Unless Valyrian features always win out (somehow), in which case, no, it wouldn't be a risk at all, because all children from people who look Valyrian would also look Valyrian.

It is confirmed that baby Aegon had Valyrian features.

There are many Targaryens who do not have Valyrian features.

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I dig the whole blood magic, relevant Maegor thing. But how could Varys know that Rhaegar and Robert would fight, Tywin would sack kl (Varys said close the gates) and Gregor would destroy the body without recognition?

By looking at the history.

Before the Dance of Dragons, the greens and blacks already had formed their alliances and honed their axes. The only thing they were waiting was the death of Viserys. And it is implied that the greens poisoned Viserys and killed him at a suitable time for them to have the upper hand.

Pycelle has been writing to the Citadel that the tension between Rhaegar and Aerys was creating a similar danger that reminded him of the Dance of Dragons. So, a clever man could have foreseen that some sort of civil war was on the way.

Yes, Varys advised Aerys to keep the doors closed but Varys was also aware of the wildfire plot. Imagine that Aerys heeded Varys and barred the gates to Tywin. Eventually, a siege was going to happen and at one point, Aerys would order the burning of the city. So, there would be no recognizable corpses at all. In this case, it would be far more plausible for Varys to convince people that he smuggled out Aegon to safety before the fire.

Therefore, the opening of the gates was against Varys’ plans. The baby Aegon was really murdered and his body was presented to the court. The entire Realm came to believe that Aegon was no more.

However, it was fortunate for Varys that Gregor turned the head of Aegon into a pulp. So, Varys was able to come up with the next best plan he could, i.e. the Pisswater Prince. But this is a stinking story. It is quite inferior to Varys’ preferred scenario, i.e. close the gates and burn the city when the walls were breached, which would produce no recognizable corpses and Aegon would never be confirmed as dead.

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If Varys is so good with magic, why dosen't he use it to rid the Lannister-Tyrells of any competent comanders they have? Or kill Tommen with it? I really don't but the "Varys is a magician" stuff since there were many times when Varys could have used magic to his advantage and didn't.

Why does Stannis not use more magic to kill his enemies?

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The last name caught Daenerys. “A knight?”

“No less.” Illyrio smiled through his beard.




“As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?”

The other [illyrio] chuckled. “No less.”





"Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever.”

“You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer.”




She [Arya] tried to remember the rest. She hadn’t quite understood everything she’d heard, and now it was all mixed up in her head. “The fat one said the princess was with child. The one in the steel cap, he had the torch, he said that they had to hurry. I think he was a wizard.”

“A wizard,” said Ned, unsmiling. “Did he have a long white beard and tall pointed hat speckled with stars?”

“No! It wasn’t like Old Nan’s stories. He didn’t look like a wizard, but the fat one said he was.”


She [Arya] wished Jon were here right now. He’d believe her about the dungeons and the fat man with the forked beard and the wizard in the steel cap.


The long windowless hall beyond the door was as black as she remembered. She held Needle in her left hand, her sword hand, the candle in her right fist. Hot wax ran down across her knuckles. The entrance to the well had been to the left, so Arya went right. Part of her wanted to run, but she was afraid of snuffing out her candle. She heard the faint squeaking of rats and glimpsed a pair of tiny glowing eyes on the edge of the light, but rats did not scare her. Other things did. It would be so easy to hide here, as she had hidden from the wizard and the man with the forked beard.



“You spoke of Varys. Does the eunuch know all of it?”

“Not from my lips,” Catelyn said. “You did not wed a fool, Eddard Stark. But Varys has ways of learning things that no man could know. He has some dark art, Ned, I swear it.”

“He has spies, that is well known,” Ned said, dismissive.

“It is more than that,” Catelyn insisted. “Ser Rodrik spoke to Ser Aron Santagar in all secrecy, yet somehow the Spider knew of their conversation. I fear that man.”


Ned’s mouth twisted in anger. “Damn Varys and his little birds. Catelyn spoke truly, the man has some black art. I do not trust him.”



The voice was strangely familiar, yet it took Ned Stark a moment to place it. “Varys?” he said groggily when it came. He touched the man’s face. “I’m not… not dreaming this. You’re here.” The eunuch’s plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine.“How did you… what sort of magician are you?”

“A thirsty one,” Varys said. “Drink, my lord.”



“How many guards does my father have?” she asked him as they descended to her bedchamber.

“Here at King’s Landing? Fifty.”

“You wouldn’t let anyone kill him, would you?” she asked.

Desmond laughed. “No fear on that count, little lady. Lord Eddard’s guarded night and day. He’ll come to no harm.”

“The Lannisters have more than fifty men,” Arya pointed out.

“So they do, but every northerner is worth ten of these southron swords, so you can sleep easy.”

“What if a wizard was sent to kill him?”

“Well, as to that,” Desmond replied, drawing his longsword, “wizards die the same as other men, once you cut their heads off.”


The eunuch sighed. “The faithful dog is kicked, and no matter how the spider weaves, he is never loved. But if you slay me here, I fear for you, my lord. You may never find your way back to daylight.” His eyes glittered in the shifting torchlight, dark and wet. “These tunnels are full of traps for the unwary.”

Tyrion snorted. “Unwary? I’m the wariest man who ever lived, you helped see to that.” He rubbed at his nose. “So tell me, wizard, where is my innocent maiden wife?”




Varys is a sorcerer. How could he know that Penrose and probably Renly too were killed by shadow assassins? How can anyone know the mechanics of such dark magic without having some sort of field study?



Another clue is embedded in Varys's story itself.



With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.



Recall the blue is the color of fAegon. He dyed his hair blue to hide his true identity. He had blue clothes in Illyrio's Manse. Daeron Targaryen during the First Dance is an obvious parallel to fAegon and his dragon had blue scales.



Blue + Yellow = Green



fAegon is heavily associated with blue.



Illyrio is heavily associated with yellow.



They together will form the green party in the Second Dance of Dragons.

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Some people criticize fake Aegon theories (at least the ones with Illyrio being the biological father of the boy) by claiming that the Valyrian looks of fAegon was never guaranteed, so this conspiracy should fail. Indeed, what if the boy was born with common features?

This is where TWOIAF steps in. At one of those conventions before the release of the Worldbook, it was reported that Visenya was implied to use magic in the conception of Maegor Targaryen. This bit was removed from TWOIAF but we will probably read it in Fire & Blood.

However, many facts supporting this idea are still in the book, such as the anomalies about Maegor. He had an immensely powerful stature, as if making heavy use of steroids. Of course the counterpart of steroids is magic in ASOIAF. It is perfectly proved that Maegor’s seeds were corrupt (for lack of a better word). Some of his wives were known to give birth to normal kids but with Maegor, they gave birth to a bunch of “things” that could hardly be considered as humans.

There is also a long list of atrocities done by the Valyrians in the Worldbook. They were into some kind of twisted genetic engineering fueled by bloodmagic. Many of the mysterious races result from such sick experiments involving interbreeding their slaves/convicts with beasts, examples including but not limited to the Brindled Men (brindled wyverns + humans), lizard-men (reptiles + humans), eyeless cave-dwellers/winged men (bats + humans) and so on.

Therefore, if there was someone who knew the necessary magic, it could have been guaranteed that fAegon could be born with necessary Valyrian features.

And the person who carried out the magic can be none other than good old Varys.

Honestly, I think there is no need for any of that. The simplest explanation for fAegon is that he and Rhaegar's son were born roughly at the same time, and that the plan to replace the one with the other was only hatched after Rhaegar, Rhaegar's son and Elia died... Or alternatively, it was because both Aegons had the Valyrian features that the plan was hatched, and Varys had a 'hand' in the outbreak of the war, and (indirectly) in real Aegon's murder.

We know how much Varys has tried to influence the war of the five kings, he uses people like pawns to reach his goal. What stopped him from doing exactly the same during Robert's Rebellion, from profiting of or exacerbating the war/conflict, to advance his goals?

To swap the children, he needed the parents dead, and Aegon to disappear. This did happened. Not all of it was Varys's doing certainly, that's not what I'm saying. But Varys as we know him plans, manipulates people/events, and places bets. After Rhaegar's defeat, how much probability was there for Elia to die if she remained in Kingslanding? this is the 'bet' Varys made, imo....(> he did his best for Elia to stay in KL).... similarly, one can wonder about Varys's influence at court during Aerys's reign... it's been hinted that not all was well between father and son, and Aerys was very paranoid.... Varys was brought to court to council the King, to spy for him. That gave him a lot of power, and the possibility to poison Aery's mind....against Rhaegar.

I think one of the reasons Robert's Rebellion was successful is because Rhaegar failed to respond to the threat right away, the royal army lacked in proper leadership, and imo, this had little to do with Lyanna, and more to do with tensions within the royal family itself.... but that's another topic ;)

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