Deep ones , important or not?

[DragonSnow]

Not really...cold sea water just cools off the lava. Iceland has actually used cold sea water to halt lava flows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldfell

BUT I do think that the "water" factions definitely have agents on land, even human (or mostly human) agents, so I wouldn't dismiss the idea that a water faction orchestrated the doom of Valyria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_explosion That's what I was talking about. Cold water gets superheated in seconds. Explosions happen. Imagine that with tons and tons of sea water and tons and tons of lava. This not pouring water on lava that is slowly moving over land. This is lava or technically "magma" still underground and much hotter and in an enclosed space. So when the cold water hits the magma lots of energy is instantly released but unlike on land in the open air the energy has nowhere to go and must burst through the earth that covers it.

No I'm not saying the deep ones had land people. I'm saying given the geological location of Valyria being on a peninsula surrounded by three sides of ocean. And given the fact that they have been mining the earth underneath the volcanos for thousands of years. That if would be possible to funnel sea water underneath the surface into the vast mining caves that have eroded the earth separating the magma and water.

[hiemal]

The Deep Ones are essentially a nod to HP Lovecraft and his mythos. You only have to look at his works to see where the inspiration came from. Even those things mentioned here:

Bloodstone Emperor - he started a cult worshiping a fallen star. And the name of the cult "Church of Starry Wisdom" is right out of a Lovecraft story. Who knows if his worshipers really gained knowledge from what they worshiped? But it adds a weird undertone to the far east, and at the end of the day it's no more bizarre than worshiping gods with faces in trees is it?

Don't forget the Black Goat of Qohor, which is plainly Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the Wood with a Thousand Young. If the Cult of Starry Wisdom is linked to Nyarlothotep (sp?) or the darkness between the stars, Qohor with debased fertility, and the Deep Ones with the Cthulhu mythos themselves via the Shadow over Innsmouth we have a Lovecraft deity trifecta. Seems like more than easter eggs to me.

Especially if you add in place names like Carcosa (although Carcosa predates Lovecraft it falls in the same creepy category, I think), Leng (although it doesn't to be a plateau on Planetos), and Nefer.

[Lordsteve666]

Don't forget the Black Goat of Qohor, which is plainly Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the Wood with a Thousand Young. If the Cult of Starry Wisdom is linked to Nyarlothotep (sp?) or the darkness between the stars, Qohor with debased fertility, and the Deep Ones with the Cthulhu mythos themselves via the Shadow over Innsmouth we have a Lovecraft deity trifecta. Seems like more than easter eggs to me.

Especially if you add in place names like Carcosa (although Carcosa predates Lovecraft it falls in the same creepy category, I think), Leng (although it doesn't to be a plateau on Planetos), and Nefer.

Cool, i'd missed that one.

I just see these little details as a tip of the hat to other writers. It's possible that there are really Deep One or Elder Ones in GRRM's world but we'll never really know, they are all just part of adding a weird sub-history and mythos to the world we are reading about.

I mean if there really are beings like Cthulhu then no offense to the Night's Watch, but the Others are the least of your worries guys!

But essentially everything about the Far East in GRRM's work is steeped in mythos hints.

The area of Leng has subterranean cities that have been sealed up by Yi TI for safety, suposedly the Old Ones reside within...straight out of Lovecraft's mythos.

The Church Of Stary Wisdom is essentially the Emperor turning to some dark arts to empower his empire and people, who knows what they caused after having done so. Worshiping a black fallen star that sounds awfully like it may have brought about the end of his empire and poisoned the land (anyone read The Colour Out Of Space?). He probably caused the Long Night.

It just all adds to the idea that there are some things in the world you really shouldn't mess with.

[LmL]

I really think Martin is treating Lovecraft's creatures like Tolkien's creatures, or creatures and beings from world mythology. They are all fair game to draw on. The Lovecraft stuff isn't any different from the Mithras stuff.

It's really strange that people assert the Lovecraft-influeneced stuff is somehow not relevant while other things that are equally influenced by external work clearly is relevant and being used for more than a shout-out.

[Reposado]

while i'm 150-200% sure that no race additional race will become significant to the story, i think there is one way that the deep ones could significant and it is obvious: they are the others. not enemies are friends with the others. that is just the name that they were called by in essos.

we know that the long night happened in essos. but there is no wall there. so what was the danger and where did it come from?

how about this? for however long the others and cof were in westeros. either peacefully or at war (or more likely, a mix). probably the cof with their obsidian had the upper hand and ruled most of westeros while the others were in the far north. then the first men show up diminish the children and the others see the men as a potential wight army. the long night happens.

so after locking down westeros they move on to essos, but everywhere besides westeros, they appear to come from the sea. so they are called deep ones. (or perhaps old ones on ling as well for reasons unknown) during the long night they build their black stone structures in various places.

it could even be that one other after the long night ends, sets himself up on the iron islands where he is revered a god. eventually he drowns. (or he appears to drown and returns if others cant be drowned)

so it could be important, as back story for the others, but it wouldnt significantly alter the plot and none of their history is absolutely critical to know to understand the story

also, i think martin said that one of the upcoming books would go further north of the wall than ever before. maybe to a black stone city?

edit: it would also be funny of the others originally built the wall to keep the cof out of their lands

[EternET]

Well if the Ironborns get back their purpose in next show seasons, we can see that the "kraken" would be relevant.

Also, in Bran's vision in the book, there's "what's beyond the curtain of light" that could well be a "dimensional place where the old/deep/Outer ones sleep".

[Pain killer Jane]

I guess I was thinking about the fact that Beric can still eat and drink. His body seems to heal somewhat - he has scars on some of his death wounds. He bleeds (albeit black blood like Mel and dragons). Ice wights, however, don't bleed, don't eat, and they seem to just go dormant i the snow for extended periods of time until needed. Fire wights act independently, like people do. Those wights outside BR's cave just appeared out of nowhere, how long have they been under the snow? The corpses Mormont took back to Castle Black already had blue star eyes, but were lifeless until later that night. I think the Others probably control weights remotely, like a perverse version of undead skin changing.

I am pretty sure everyone with fishy looks has some kind of selkie or merling ancestry. The Manderlies, the Sisterton people, and I said the Crannogmen because they can supposedly breathe underwater, which doesn't seem like a cotf thing (obviously they have cotf blood notwithstanding anything else).

do you think that perhaps the Night's King was a warg that crossed the taboo of warging into people? They said that he controlled his fellow brothers somehow.

The Grey king took a mermaid to wife and defeated the sea dragon Naga and took her living fire to warm his halls. could this Grey king legend be an interpretation of the bloodstone emperor legend?

A sea dragon having fire could be a precursor to land dragons. Plus we know that sometimes there are places in the deepest parts of the ocean alive with fire and animals.

Or could the Grey King legend be indicative of older myths that were reinterpreted over thousands of years?

[Pain killer Jane]

I think there different version of wights. Beric is a fire wight who can think and act Independently and i think Coldhands is the same just a ice wight. Most likely there is also fire wights who not think and just walk around like those the Others raise.

I think Cold hands might be an Earth wight as he is in service to Bloodraven and as we know BR is an agent of the Children of the forest. A dead tree can still bloom and trees and earth are cool till enough pressures is applied and then you have magma and which leads to fire born from earth (obsidian). Perhaps the legend of the empire of the dawn is all that remains of people using sorcery and the classical elements, i.e. Fire, Earth, Water, Air to cross the boundaries of Life and Death and it got away from them and thus the army of the undead. Probably a Frankenstein's monster situation where the existential crisis of such creatures came back to haunt the creator. Which now that I think about it ended at the polar ice cap.

[AlaskanSandman]

The Deep Ones broke the Arm of Dorne and caused The Doom of Valyria

Background

Black Stones: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_stone

So we know there are mysterious oily black stones scattered across The Known World. Seastone Chair on the Iron Islands, 40 ft statue of a Toad on Isle of Toads, Buildings in Asshai. All located near the Sea.

These black stones are similar but different from the black stone on the foundation of Hightower at Oldtown and the Five Forts in Yi Ti and the remaining Valyrian dragonfire structures. These stone are the same in every way except they are not described as oily but rather as fused black stone.

Bloodstone Emperor: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bloodstone_Emperor

The last emperor of the old Yi Ti emperor. This guy killed his sister. Married a "tiger women" and was so bad his actions are blamed for the coming of the Long Night. But importantly upon his ascension to the Yi Ti thrown he cast down the true gods of Yi Ti, to worship a black stone that fell from the sky. He founded the Church of Starry Wisdom which is still practiced today in some port cities

Deep Ones: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Deep_Ones

The black stones are associated with what's known as the Deep Ones (a fabled mythical race of half men half sea creature). I am assuming that The Drowned God of the Iron Islands, the Old Ones of Ling, the Rhoynish Gods known as Mother Rhoyne and Old Men of the River, and the Gods of The Thousand Islands are all the references to the same entity or entities under the sea.

Patchface: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patchface

Patchface supposedly met the deep ones and now sings cryptic tales of something in the sea that will eventually rise out of the water. He is currently a jester at Dragonstone

Mazemakers of Lorath: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mazemakers

The legends of the Lorathi state the mazemakers were destroyed by creatures of the sea, such as merlings, selkies, or walrus-men. Lorath is a city next to the sea.

So I am of the belief that there is a race of underwater dwellers have are as old or older than The Children and Giants. I also believe that the Deep Ones are responsible for submerging the land bridge between Westeros and Essos. The Children had a hand in it but the Deep Ones did the heavy lifting.

Additionally, the Deep Ones are responsible for the Doom of Valyria. Valyria was a coastal city and considering that nearly all the dragonlords and dragons were in Valyria during the doom the timing can’t be a coincidence. The Doom occurred partly as revenge for the Valyrians wiping out the 250,000 strong army of Rhoynar. The surviving Rhoynars who didn’t leave on the 10,000 ships abandoned their old religion worshipping the gods of the river after defeat for the Faith of the Seven. Also, assuming the Deep Ones have long planned on returning to the surface to rule once again it would make sense to destroy the greatest threat to their rule. (The Valyrians have so many dragons at the time they could make huge bodies of water boil)

The Deep Ones are the lost race that ruled the world before the rise of mankind. The Deep Ones have teamed up with The Children who are tired of living on the fringes and want to reclaim their old turf in Westeros. The Deep Ones will probably have some of mankind on their side. The Ironborn for example I assume will side with The Deep Ones. Bloodraven maybe also aware of the Deep Ones and is helping them. Members of the Church of Starry Wisdom are all for the take over. Some forces in Assahai probably will have a hand in the Deep Ones reemergence.

So how will a majority of mankind fight such a powerful foe?

We will not see the White Walkers and the Dragons battle it out. Instead they will both have to join forces to defeat the Deep Ones once and for all. I believe that the events for the Long Night have been misinterpreted over the centuries and the White Walkers got cast as the bad guys but in reality they fight alongside mankind. The current White Walkers are gearing up for the fight. They know what is coming.

Perhaps the known world like Earth was once completed covered in water and only after land masses began to rise out of the water did The Great Ones lose their grip on control of the world.

What do you think?

I agree with you on much of this. My big thing is trying to decide which side of the fight the deep ones are on. Also, Asshai, im leaning toward the belief was actually an underwater city at first that was revealed after the waters receded there. Unsure here as the Dothraki sea was once all under water, and its alluded that the narrow sea was once an inland freshwater sea. Meaning westeros was connected at the north along with the south, likely at the fingers connecting to Braavos. So im not sure if its waters rising, lowering, or lands rising and lowering. Also the story about the knight during the dance of dragons hiding behind his shield to kill a dragon and getting roasted, but Serwyn of the mirror shield successfully does this. They sayyyyy Targaryen dragons werent around back then, so assuming thats true that only leaves the sea dragon's and the ice dragon's. Which the Sea Dragons i suspect of helping to build oily black stone under water. What happened exactly in the east during the long night has got me very curious tho, in the lands by the five forts, north east of Yi-Ti.

[LmL]

do you think that perhaps the Night's King was a warg that crossed the taboo of warging into people? They said that he controlled his fellow brothers somehow.

Yes!

The Grey king took a mermaid to wife and defeated the sea dragon Naga and took her living fire to warm his halls. could this Grey king legend be an interpretation of the bloodstone emperor legend?

Yes, if definitely could be. The Sea Dragon part and the Lightning from heaven are very similar.

A sea dragon having fire could be a precursor to land dragons. Plus we know that sometimes there are places in the deepest parts of the ocean alive with fire and animals.

Or could the Grey King legend be indicative of older myths that were reinterpreted over thousands of years?

Yes! Absolutely. This is a safe assumption in general for most Dawn Age myths, IMO. As for sea dragons.... Hard to say. Tantalizing, but too speculative to make anything of. I do t even know if they really exist - I think one of the meteors from the second moon's explosion crashed into the sea and became known as the sea dragon. That's how she "drowned whole islands in her wroth."

We've discussed these idea in the comments threads of some of my theories, although I can't say which ones exactly. I'm working on putting all that into a finished theory, both the Grey King stuff and the green seer / Other connection. As for the latter, many have speculated along those lines, I am pretty sure, but I think I have some good proof that I haven't seen around.

[LmL]

I agree with you on much of this. My big thing is trying to decide which side of the fight the deep ones are on. Also, Asshai, im leaning toward the belief was actually an underwater city at first that was revealed after the waters receded there. Unsure here as the Dothraki sea was once all under water, and its alluded that the narrow sea was once an inland freshwater sea. Meaning westeros was connected at the north along with the south, likely at the fingers connecting to Braavos. So im not sure if its waters rising, lowering, or lands rising and lowering. Also the story about the knight during the dance of dragons hiding behind his shield to kill a dragon and getting roasted, but Serwyn of the mirror shield successfully does this. They sayyyyy Targaryen dragons werent around back then, so assuming thats true that only leaves the sea dragon's and the ice dragon's. Which the Sea Dragons i suspect of helping to build oily black stone under water. What happened exactly in the east during the long night has got me very curious tho, in the lands by the five forts, north east of Yi-Ti.

A couple of observations here. I have noticed that there seems to be a warming trend over the past 10,000 years. First, there are a lot of shrinking inland bodies of water in the East as well as expanding deserts. Second, the breaking of the arm of Dorne would have allowed the warm Summer Sea to mix with the Shivering Sea, which would radically altered the ocean currents and therefore the climate. Third, we see traces of underwater structures on the Thousand Islands near Mossovy. These carved fish head gods are only visible when the tide is low. These are fishy-looking people, so clearly they are descended from Deep Ones if anyone is.

But I struggle with the idea of Deep Ones building things, underwater or above ground. Aquatic entities of any kind should be loathe to be ashore for very long, and what need do they have for cities? Hard to speculate, because it's so fantastical, or rather "easy to speculate but hard to know." Could they control sea dragons and use them to make fused stone structures? I really don't think so, but it has been proposed.

If you're interested in speculation on the Far East and the Long Night, you may be interested in the essays in my signature.

[Pain killer Jane]

Oh here is something that should relate to the Deep Ones. In Mesoamerican mythology, I am talking Mexica (Aztec), Olmec, particularly the Maya, pools of water such as cenotes (sinkholes) were considered entrances to the underworld where the lords of Fear reside. And because of this you have a ton sacrificial items found inside cenotes which include humans. The ocean itself was also considered a giant massive gateway as well.

[LmL]

They also have an association with frogs or toads and the entrance to the underworld. There are actual toad statues like the one on the Isle of Toads in the book.

[Pain killer Jane]

They also have an association with frogs or toads and the entrance to the underworld. There are actual toad statues like the one on the Isle of Toads in the book.

Yes ! That is very true and when I saw that in the book I was so surprised. Also you have Maya emperors that would practice ritual cutting- by piercing their penis with a knife made out of shark's tooth- this was used to induce trances or view images in smoke that would be from their ancestors. Not related to toads and such but sharks were guardians of the gateways. Oh that reminds me, I had an archaeology professor that was part of that National Geographic (the one that got looted because Nat Geo in a magazine basically put an X marks treasure) dig a few years back and he mentioned to me that the temple he was digging in had sculpted obsidian knives in corners of the temple marking the difference in each incarnation of the temple. Also not to mention the whole Quetzalcoatl or Kukulcan thing but that is whole different thread.

[LmL]

You should really dig into my astronomy / mythology Ice and Fire essays. I think you'd find a lot to like, and I would love to hear your take on them since you are familiar with / have an interest in mythology and ancient civilization. I took a look at the ancient legends of ASOIAF from a comparative mythology approach, with an eye for astronomy underlying mythology. I put a couple of things together about the moon cracking to produce dragons and the Azor Ahai myth that tipped me off to the fact that George is hiding a bunch of astronomical events in his in world legends.

Start with "Behind the legends of Ice and Fire" if you're down.

[Pain killer Jane]

You should really dig into my astronomy / mythology Ice and Fire essays. I think you'd find a lot to like, and I would love to hear your take on them since you are familiar with / have an interest in mythology and ancient civilization. I took a look at the ancient legends of ASOIAF from a comparative mythology approach, with an eye for astronomy underlying mythology. I put a couple of things together about the moon cracking to produce dragons and the Azor Ahai myth that tipped me off to the fact that George is hiding a bunch of astronomical events in his in world legends.

Start with "Behind the legends of Ice and Fire" if you're down.

That is next on my list. :cool4: I saw yours and Durran Durrandon's posts on Daenerys being the Amethyst Empress and then I literally accidentally clicked (it was actually my tablet acting up on me) on the TWOIAF portion of the forums and got lost there and found my way back through the crab/Other Hierarchy posts which you linked together for Voice of the First Men & Evolett and now I am wondering around finishing up Blind Beth the cat lady's threads so I can go back and finish Evolett's blog. :bowdown: But your threads are already opened on tabs so I can read them and keep them handy in case other's make reference because I know they are multi layered and fantastically dense pieces that require patience and rumination because they were written wonderfully and with such great care of the source material. So I can't wait to dive in. And then I have to paraphrase it to my husband. :bang:

[LmL]

Awesome, you're wandering the hall of mirrors which is our little circle of starry wisdom. Enjoy. I recommend using the text to speech function on your computer if you can find a computer voice that is tolerable. That way you listen and do other things and not be held prisoner by pixels.

If you haven't started my essay, I recommend reading the updated version on my wordpress page. It takes the place of "Behind the Legends," and from there it's back to westeros.org for the remainder. Take your time, thanks very much for reading. I also recommend the comments threads after my essays; it quickly became a group effort and there is just as much interesting stuff in there as the OP. Lots of very smart people here on the board, if you can lure them away from their dark corners. ;)

[oursisthefury69]

Well if the Ironborns get back their purpose in next show seasons, we can see that the "kraken" would be relevant.

Also, in Bran's vision in the book, there's "what's beyond the curtain of light" that could well be a "dimensional place where the old/deep/Outer ones sleep".

??

1. I'm not sure what your Ironborn notion even begin to mean, more importantly never mind why its hinging on wether or not the Ironborn are included in the show.

2. Saying in the book defintly reverts back to your misplaced show importance from number . And why in gods name would you quote the curtain of light (a misquote to begin with but still something actually mentioned) followed by a consequence theorization then also put into quotes as if it isnt just a theory, a theory about a naptime dimension

[LordImp]

A couple of observations here. I have noticed that there seems to be a warming trend over the past 10,000 years. First, there are a lot of shrinking inland bodies of water in the East as well as expanding deserts. Second, the breaking of the arm of Dorne would have allowed the warm Summer Sea to mix with the Shivering Sea, which would radically altered the ocean currents and therefore the climate. Third, we see traces of underwater structures on the Thousand Islands near Mossovy. These carved fish head gods are only visible when the tide is low. These are fishy-looking people, so clearly they are descended from Deep Ones if anyone is.

But I struggle with the idea of Deep Ones building things, underwater or above ground. Aquatic entities of any kind should be loathe to be ashore for very long, and what need do they have for cities? Hard to speculate, because it's so fantastical, or rather "easy to speculate but hard to know." Could they control sea dragons and use them to make fused stone structures? I really don't think so, but it has been proposed.

If you're interested in speculation on the Far East and the Long Night, you may be interested in the essays in my signature.

I think the Seastone Chair and the toad statue was created by the Deep ones.