Deep ones , important or not?

[Knight Of Winter]

Dunno, but introducing Deep Ones / krakens / merlings etc. as important players in the books to come just doesn't seem Martin's style. After spending building up various conflicts (and hopefully escalating and culminating them in last two books), why would he divert reader's time into something which has been, at the very best, maybe vaguely hinted at? Introducing new player with no backstory now would seem like a major ass pull.

Another thing to note is that GRRM firstly and foremost-ly writes about human conflicts: human vs human or "human heart in conflict with itself" as he himself put it. He just doesn't seem like a type of lovecraftian writer who revels in clashing his heroes against horrors unknown as the driving plot (not detracting from Lovecraft here, just saying he writes different type of books). Yes, we have Others, but they have been clearly established as main antagonists from the very first chapter.

[LmL]

Dunno, but introducing Deep Ones / krakens / merlings etc. as important players in the books to come just doesn't seem Martin's style. After spending building up various conflicts (and hopefully escalating and culminating them in last two books), why would he divert reader's time into something which has been, at the very best, maybe vaguely hinted at? Introducing new player with no backstory now would seem like a major ass pull.

Another thing to note is that GRRM firstly and foremost-ly writes about human conflicts: human vs human or "human heart in conflict with itself" as he himself put it. He just doesn't seem like a type of lovecraftian writer who revels in clashing his heroes against horrors unknown as the driving plot (not detracting from Lovecraft here, just saying he writes different type of books). Yes, we have Others, but they have been clearly established as main antagonists from the very first chapter.

The Deep Ones may simply be the watery manifestation of the Others. "dead things in the wood, dead things in the water" kind of equates them, potentially. The text clues about the Long Night I am puzzling over indicates that the dark tide, representing floods and Deep Ones both, came at the same time as the Others. I'm not sure how they are related, but they are related. I wouldn't expect the Deep Ones to take over as the main bad guy of course, that wouldn't make sense, as you say, but as an augmentation to the Others? As a general worsening situation, to go with Greyscale, the Pale Mare, Others, dragons, etc.? Perhaps that makes a bit more sense. I mean, we should expect a couple surprises.

And as you say, in the end it will mostly matter how our heroes react to these forces.

[LordImp]

What if the Others are the Deep ones? Ice just another form of water , so maybe the Others attacks from the sea and they are the deep ones.

[LmL]

yeah I was saying they might just be the "navy" of the Others.

[Maester Barth]

Dead Things in the Water:

I believe the Ice Spiders are the giant crabs mentioned in the world book, ridden like a dead elk or horse. However, once dead, the crabs don't need to breath so why not come on land? Another hint at how this observation was made: Crabs are anthropods, like Spiders. Spiders are not insects. Their common ancestry is evident in the fact that they both have eight legs. https://www.google.com.pr/search?q=crabs&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=ETXgp9mFbY9EmM%253A%253BlgOnspcQ4wlEqM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FCrab&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ETXgp9mFbY9EmM%253A%252ClgOnspcQ4wlEqM%252C_&usg=__mGNj30DsolZOrTD3A-s8nMAJLfs%3D&biw=1920&bih=955&ved=0CD0Qyjc&ei=acVGVY7AAfC1sATPrYC4Dg#imgrc=ETXgp9mFbY9EmM%253A%3BlgOnspcQ4wlEqM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F4%252F49%252FOcypode_quadrata_(Martinique).jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FCrab%3B1200%3B804

[Maester Barth]

Another observation is this: Why don't the others just sail around? Why don't they just walk into the water and out the other side? I think there is a diversity of undersea races, neither pro nor anti man per se, which has its own version of the nights watch. There is a crab king, a merlin king, a drowned god, selkies, merlings, squishers, etc. As for being too late, this is the author who waited till book five to introduce the new Aegon.

[LmL]

Hey

Dead Things in the Water:

I believe the Ice Spiders are the giant crabs mentioned in the world book, ridden like a dead elk or horse. However, once dead, the crabs don't need to breath so why not come on land? Another hint at how this observation was made: Crabs are anthropods, like Spiders. Spiders are not insects. Their common ancestry is evident in the fact that they both have eight legs. https://www.google.com.pr/search?q=crabs&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=ETXgp9mFbY9EmM%253A%253BlgOnspcQ4wlEqM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FCrab&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ETXgp9mFbY9EmM%253A%252ClgOnspcQ4wlEqM%252C_&usg=__mGNj30DsolZOrTD3A-s8nMAJLfs%3D&biw=1920&bih=955&ved=0CD0Qyjc&ei=acVGVY7AAfC1sATPrYC4Dg#imgrc=ETXgp9mFbY9EmM%253A%3BlgOnspcQ4wlEqM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F4%252F49%252FOcypode_quadrata_(Martinique).jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FCrab%3B1200%3B804

Hey Barth, I just reposted your comment on an awesome thread that you really have to read, one entirely dedicated to the Crabs - as - Others metaphor George seems to be playing with. You can check it out here, it's really damn cool.

[Maester Barth]

Wow, thanks for that link Priest of the Pattern.

[LmL]

Wow, thanks for that link Priest of the Pattern.

Haha, I knew you'd like that one. Evolett does a great job. ;)

You'll also want to check out Voice of the First Men's "Heirarchy of Others," there's a link in his signature. He's made several comments on the last few pages on the Spider Crabs thread. Cheers.

[Maester Barth]

That's amazing. I had another post called incest is magic theorizing that magic originated in biology like recessive genes. I hadn't fought on that there may have been incest in the Fingers explaining the webbed fingers. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120793-incest-is-magic-westerosi-genetics-and-the-origins-of-supernatural-phenomena/

I hadn't thought about it in terms of bringing back the deep ones though.

[LmL]

So, are merlings real? Let's ask the fisherfolk:

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. “The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore.”

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. “The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings.”

AGOT, Tyrion

Those fisherfolk are just not reliable, huh? ;)

[Maester Barth]

That seals it for me now. That's like Red Wedding level foreshadowing.

[Kyll.Ing.]

So, are merlings real? Let's ask the fisherfolk:

Those fisherfolk are just not reliable, huh? ;)

Well, try comparing real-world tales of merfolk around the world, and then count how many mermen and mermaids turned out to actually exist.

Myths can be strangely well coordinated across the world. Just consider dragons.

That being said, I doubt the so-called "Deep Ones" will play any role in the story. They might exist, they might be alluded to in text here and there, but as for actually appearing and doing something relevant? Hardly.

[LmL]

Squish squish. They'll eat you RAW.

[Connartist92]

A hundred miles? That's a bit high.

None the less the peninsula was surrounded on three sides by the sea and clearly was vulnerable to the encroachment of the sea. The Arm of Dorne wasn't a small land mass and it now is mostly underwater.

It fits the theory.

Except the Doom of Valyria was caused by fire. Not water.

[Connartist92]

Another observation is this: Why don't the others just sail around? Why don't they just walk into the water and out the other side? I think there is a diversity of undersea races, neither pro nor anti man per se, which has its own version of the nights watch. There is a crab king, a merlin king, a drowned god, selkies, merlings, squishers, etc. As for being too late, this is the author who waited till book five to introduce the new Aegon.

I definitely think it has something to do with the wards on the Wall to keep the Others from just sailing around. The wards might extend beyond the Wall.

[DragonSnow]

Except the Doom of Valyria was caused by fire. Not water.

I"m not a geologist but if you inject tons and cold sea water into a huge pool of lava. Explosive things happen. Not hard to imagine how if you had control of the sea water how that could be used to destabilize a ring of volcanos.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I"m not a geologist but if you inject tons and cold sea water into a huge pool of lava. Explosive things happen. Not hard to imagine how if you had control of the sea water how that could be used to destabilize a ring of volcanos.

Not really...cold sea water just cools off the lava. Iceland has actually used cold sea water to halt lava flows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldfell

BUT I do think that the "water" factions definitely have agents on land, even human (or mostly human) agents, so I wouldn't dismiss the idea that a water faction orchestrated the doom of Valyria.

[LordImp]

A crazy idea. At the very end of the series when things finally are getting better the deep ones rise from the sea and just slay everyone.

[For_The_Good_Of_The_Realm]

The idea is quite intriguing, but I'm afraid it's just a hat tip to H.P. Lovecraft.