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...this close to the Kingslayurrgh - a curtailed Theon


Slender Aimry Hill

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And Theon Greyjoy fought at Robb's side, and boasted of how he had almost crossed swords with the Kingslayer. Would that he had. If Theon had died in place of Lord Karstark's sons, how much ill would have been undone?



- Catelyn's thoughts, ASoS



Well. I quite like Cat but I love Theon, so at the time I bridled reading this, but you have to admit, it's sort of a fair question. Let's try and answer it.



Theon is killed by Jaime at the Whispering Wood, and one of the Karstarks, or Daryn Hornwood perhaps, lives.



The survival of a Karstark or of Daryn would be straightforwardly helpful - restraining Lord Rickard's rashness or Roose Bolton's ambition, respectively.



The ramifications for Theon himself presently look, in many ways, preferable to his current plight. The death he actually dreams of in ADwD is of course at the Red Wedding - I should have died with him - but death in battle, before the Ironborn invasion, is probably even better for his reputation. Theon becomes Theon the True, a brother in all but name to the Young Wolf, who died saving him from the Kingslayer and helped win a famous victory. A Northern hero of sorts, even possibly an Ironborn one - it would unquestionably be a good death for him. Life is full of possibilities, of course, and Theon's road may yet take him in a more significant and satisfying direction, but right now such a death looks like a blessing.



Even more interestingly - how would this have affected whether Balon invaded the North at all, and indeed what else he might have done? If Jaime kills his last son, it is in a way similar to what would have happened with the Tyrells if the Mountain had killed Loras. It leaves Balon with some imperative towards revenge. Admittedly, Loras is Mace's favourite child and Mace is a loving, broadly sane father; neither of these are true of Theon's sitch, but he is still Balon's last son.



I could actually see Balon going either way on this one - either The worthless boy fell doing the bidding of his wolf masters or It is time for these Lannisters to pay, even more dearly than they did heretofore. I think this would depend largely on what Robb chose to do next. He can either -



- keep the Kingslayer captive as in the books. Karstark will now be less aggrieved about this if he has one or two more sons, but it may hamper diplomacy with Balon.



- defy his mother's definite advice and his own better judgment - perhaps in a fit of fury at Theon's fall - and execute Jaime by his own hand. I suggest that this would probably impress and please Balon and be likely to gain him as an ally against the Lannisters. Sansa would be killed, though, and there is always the awful chance that Balon will say No boy will rob of my vengeance, this wolf pup must suffer for this etc.



- deliver Jaime to Balon as compensation for his last son's blood. This would be a bold but perilous move for almost everybody involved and would test everyone's mettle greatly. Would Balon have the guts to take vengeance when the decision was truly his, or would he cravenly deliver Jaime back to the Lannisters? I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say the former. Sansa's execution looks much more dubious to justify in this circumstance - but if Joffrey or Cersei call the shots, it might well happen anyway. In any case, Balon will be forced to pick a side. My feeling on the whole is that he'll kill Jaime and join the North, and that poor Sansa will pay the price, as in the scenario above.



- keep Jaime specifically as leverage. Join me, Lord Balon, and I swear by the Old Gods I shall deliver you up your son's killer when Casterly Rock is overthrown. Might this work...? It would have many of the advantages of the first option without imperilling Sansa as quickly.



What do you all think?


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The problem I see with your post is that Balon was an idiot and had a hard for ransacking the North and all things Stark related. I mean, if had a brain; he would have sided with Robb and took Casterly Rock. He didn't, because he seems to dislike the Starks more than Lannister.

There is also the fact; that he didn't give a shit about Theon.....dead or alive. A fact, Theon realized all to late.

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Well, in this scenario Balon's last son - whom he has yet even to remeet and judge - has been killed by a Lannister. That, I would argue, is a bit of a game-changer.

I understand what you are saying and I agree; that logically a decent father would feel that way. Now, had Balon and his scumbag brothers all been long dead before the WoFK breaks out and Asha was in charge, she would probably feel that way. I still havent decided whether Asha, backed Balon's plan, simply because he was her father. She certainly had different ideas about the situation and the choice to invade the North in Feast and Dance. It may be, that she would have sided with Robb, after soaking it all in. Either way, Asha, is everything her father, never was and would have served the Ironborn well.

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The problem I see with your post is that Balon was an idiot and had a hard for ransacking the North and all things Stark related. I mean, if had a brain; he would have sided with Robb and took Casterly Rock. He didn't, because he seems to dislike the Starks more than Lannister.

There is also the fact; that he didn't give a shit about Theon.....dead or alive. A fact, Theon realized all to late.

Completely agreed. And I think Balon hated the Starks, etc. because Ned was close with Robert who, of course, put down his rebellion, killed his two older sons, and took his remaining son hostage. Heh, I believe Balon is exactly the kind that would foster a burning hatred for anyone who killed Theon while, as you say, never giving a shit about him while he was alive.

Well, in this scenario Balon's last son - whom he has yet even to remeet and judge - has been killed by a Lannister. That, I would argue, is a bit of a game-changer.

This happening could change things but I think it just a s likely that Balon would still blame the Starks for his last remaining son's death because, of course, if they hadn't taken him hostage he wouldn't have even been in harm's way in that instance. I think it more likely that Balon would just raise the Lannisters up his "People I HATE" list if Jaime killed Theon rather than somehow softening his view of the Starks, Baratheons, etc. Balon's hatred and stupidity, unfortunately, are not finite but ever expanding, it seems ;)

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Balon didn't give a rat's ass about Theon once the boy had been shipped off to Ned, and I don't think this scenario would change Balon's plans to invade the North. Winterfell would never be taken and Rodrick might eventually succeed in rallying the Northmen to driving the Ironborn out, and it's hard to say if Roose would betray Robb without Ramsay in play or the Karstark dissension.


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It looks like Balon would have invaded the North, with or without Theon, so without a hostage he would invade almost certainly. The real difference is that without Theon, Winterfell would not have fallen. Now that is a gamechanger. At the very least it turns the Starks' destruction into a mere defeat and makes for an entirely different story up north and a significantly different one south.


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He did actually. He wrote him off when they met again, but he was still hoping that his son hadn't been turned.

I read the reunion as Balon, more worried Theon siding with the Starks, being a slight to him. Not actually caring what Theon wanted and how it would have affected him. Balon made his mind up, long ago about the Starks. That's fairly clear.

Further proof that Balon did not care about Theon's faith, would be that he already choose to invade the North...long before Theon got to Pyke with Robb's offer. At this point, Theon was still a ward of the Starks and wouldn't have had a clue, as whether Robb would have took his head or not. If he gave a shit about his son and heir's saftey, he would not have done that.

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I read the reunion as Balon, more worried Theon siding with the Starks, being a slight to him. Not actually caring what Theon wanted and how it would have affected him. Balon made his mind up, long ago about the Starks. That's fairly clear.

Further proof that Balon did not care about Theon's faith, would be that he already choose to invade the North...long before Theon got to Pyke with Robb's offer. At this point, Theon was still a ward of the Starks and wouldn't have had a clue, as whether Robb would have took his head or not. If he gave a shit about his son and heir's saftey, he would not have done that.

I agree. Balon hated the Stark since the GJ Rebellion.

That's not proven. He only gathered 60 ships by the time Theon arrived and he'd sent a letter. Given the size of the Iron Islands, they could've probably attacked the North in AGOT. But then again, Robb went to war with the Lannisters even though they held his siblings and father hostage.

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Balon didn't give a rat's ass about Theon once the boy had been shipped off to Ned, and I don't think this scenario would change Balon's plans to invade the North. Winterfell would never be taken and Rodrick might eventually succeed in rallying the Northmen to driving the Ironborn out, and it's hard to say if Roose would betray Robb without Ramsay in play or the Karstark dissension.

There is a difference about not caring about Theon and not caring that Jaimie Lannister killed your only son. Balon had a huge amount of ego and pride and Jaimie killing Theon would have not been a small thing to him. Just like it's not a small thing that Loras killed Bronze Yohn's son. There will be repercussions from that I have no doubt.

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There is a difference about not caring about Theon and not caring that Jaimie Lannister killed your only son. Balon had a huge amount of ego and pride and Jaimie killing Theon would have not been a small thing to him. Just like it's not a small thing that Loras killed Bronze Yohn's son. There will be repercussions from that I have no doubt.

Yes, but Balon and his bros were a bunch of cowards and they were afraid of the big bad lion. Tywin kept the Damphair on a cell for who knows how long, and yet the DP never wants to pay that particular debt and goes for the low hanging fruit instead.

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Yes, but Balon and his bros were a bunch of cowards and they were afraid of the big bad lion. Tywin kept the Damphair on a cell for who knows how long, and yet the DP never wants to pay that particular debt and goes for the low hanging fruit instead.

Why should Aeron be angry? He fought against them, was captured and released after the war.

Balon wasn't afraid of Tywin when he sent the IF to burn the Lannister fleet.

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I've been on these forums for years now and very few threads intrigue my interest any more so I want to thank you for making this topic.

There are a lot of possibilities to take this question. First off say if somehow with the wild events of battle theon actually killed Jaime. What would be the effects on that in the story. Not only would that give theon a Wild reputation and fame but how would that make him stand at the iron islands? Would him killing Jaime make it easier for theon to convince his father to make an alliance of 2 independent dynasties with marriage pacts with the north. Would killing Jaime make him the obvious heir to his father because of the fame he would now have? I think it is very likely that the fame he would have from killing Jaime would make it much easier to get the iron islands to make a common cause with the north. What's sad is that balon didn't see the obvious advantages to a dynastic alliance with the north. I think the alliance between Robb's kingdom and the iron island kingdom would be able to destroy the lannister iron throne in war and than hold off all challengers in defense.

The next question this scenario brings is I Jaime fell in battle and by a greyjoy none the less would the lannisters in kings landing still kill Sansa? Also since it was a greyjoy to kill Jaime does that all but ensure Tywin warring against the iron islands in vengeance?

All of this is very intriguing I must say. There's all to be said for both cases and how the events of this scenario would have changed the story. The iron islands not allying with Robb and theon bein a traitor I always thought would have been cooler and maybe even better for the story.

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Why should Aeron be angry? He fought against them, was captured and released after the war.

Balon wasn't afraid of Tywin when he sent the IF to burn the Lannister fleet.

Yet they were angry with the Starks because they fought against them, got defeated, and Ned took Theon.

And Balon pretty much admits he's afraid of Tywin (post-Greyjoy Rebellion): "Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half"

Translation: Tywin scares me, so let's attack some kids instead

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Yet they were angry with the Starks because they fought against them, got defeated, and Ned took Theon.

And Balon pretty much admits he's afraid of Tywin (post-Greyjoy Rebellion): "Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half"

Translation: Tywin scares me, so let's attack some kids instead

I'm not a father, but I can imagine that if someon took my 10 year old hostage and killed two of my sons (I know Ned didn't kill them personally), I'd be pretty angry at him two.

He admits that he respects Tywin more than a boy so green he pisses grass. Tywin seemed to respect Balon too.

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I think the lesson Balon learned after the first rebellion is that the Ironborn have no chance against a unified Westeros under the control of the Iron Throne. He also "learned" that Tywin Lannister is very closely related to this throne and that attacking him is attacking the Throne. At the end of AGOT he has also seen that the "hard men" who ruled Westeros during the last 15 Years are dead (Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Eddard Stark), sick/old & dying (Hoster Tully), or removed from power (Stannis Baratheon), with one exception: Tywin Lannister. The North has declared independence, the Iron Throne would not back them like he did back up the Lannisters during the first rebellion. The best soldiers of the north were miles away, so the north was ripe for the taking.


He would have found some way to blame the Starks for Theon's death.


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Yes, but Balon and his bros were a bunch of cowards and they were afraid of the big bad lion. Tywin kept the Damphair on a cell for who knows how long, and yet the DP never wants to pay that particular debt and goes for the low hanging fruit instead.

The Greyjoys were not afraid of anybody but they did have healthy respect for Tywin and Ned and Stannis etc.. Balon just saw the North as the easier target but if Jaimie kills Theon he may change his mind. Euron is clearly not afraid of anybody . He attacked the strongest kingdom in Westeroes (the Reach) without a second thought.

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I'm not a father, but I can imagine that if someon took my 10 year old hostage and killed two of my sons (I know Ned didn't kill them personally), I'd be pretty angry at him two.

He admits that he respects Tywin more than a boy so green he pisses grass. Tywin seemed to respect Balon too.

Do you have a quote from the books about this? I honestly can't remember Tywin ever saying something nice about Balon. Closet I can think of is Tywin being happy that Balon was nice enough to weaken the Starks for him, without House Lannister having to give the Iron Islands anything in return.

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