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R+L=J v.136


RumHam

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i have decided to embrace the madness...can i follow you Sj4iy...if not see you in Misc.... ;)

Always :) I've been part of the madness so long that I don't think I can find sanity again.

Always enjoy the Kingsguard debate.

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As the post by King Viserys Targaryen IV stated, if the 3 KG remained at the TOJ based on a promise they made to Rhaegar, why didn't one of them make an attempt to reach Viserys if they knew he was appointed heir by Aerys and therefore King? I don't see how Hightower would justify to himself that a vow he swore to Rhaegar would trump his primary KG vow of protecting his rightful King. Did Dayne and Whent convince or bully him into staying? From what's mentioned of Hightower in the books, I don't think this scenario is possible. And nowhere in Ned's dream of the KG encounter does it imply that Hightower was or he felt he was derelict in his KG duties.

Up until the release of the AWOIAF, the most common argument on this thread against Jon's claim to the IT was that Lyanna was not married to Rhaegar or that polygamy is not legal in Westeros and therefore Jon is a bastard and has no claim to the IT. Since the publication of ASOIAF, those that reject Jon having a claim to the IT have used the Viserys being named Aerys heir argument to nullify Jon's claim to the IT.

Viserys bypassing Aegon as Aerys heir was not common knowledge IMO or else we would have had someone in story mention this fact. And the argument that Jamie mentions Viserys is not a strong enough argument or else we would have been debating Viserys claim long before ASOIAF came out. Dany herself reflects that had Aegon lived, he would have been the sixth Aegon to sit the IT. Now Dany would never feel that way had she known Viserys was the rightful heir as she was Viserys heir and princess of Dragonstone. One could argue that as Dany was female all Targ male claimants came before her and that is why she thought of Aegon as king. But from Dany's thoughts this is not the impression I get. From her thoughts it seems like her brother Rhaegar was her father's heir and Aegon his.

Also, the books have several hints of Jon being king, and I find it highly unlikely that all these hints are for naught. I mean if we believe that BR is warging Mormont's raven, then it's highly likely that the raven's reference to king is directed at Jon.

As a poster up thread mentioned the second DwD will bring Dany's and the rest of Westeros views on Aegon's claim to the IT to light. Jon Con does not doubt Aegon's claim and he'd know that Viserys was Aery's heir had it been common knowledge. In that case, he'd also suspect that Dany might me the rightful Queen as Viserys named her his heir. Dany, if she disputes Aegon's claim, will do so because she thinks he's fake and not because she has a better claim to the IT than Rhaegar's son.

Edit: And Lady Gwynhyfvar, it's nice to see you're back. Misssed your insightful posts.

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The idea that Ned held the three knights - especially Ser Arthur Dayne - in such high esteem because they (apparently) died for someone they had sworn to (or pledged to) defend.



From the fact that Ned despised Jaime for breaking his vow and slaying his king does not follow that honored and praised the three knights because they 'defended their king'. It may be that they did just that, but it does not need to be the case.



The 'king term' would have to be used in loosely term anyway - 'rightful king', 'the prince who should be king' etc. as the three knights had no right to decide who should inherit the Iron Throne after Aerys' death - even if we for some reason assume that they did not know about Aerys naming Viserys' heir (while they still knew everything else - like, that Viserys was on Dragonstone).



I've suggested that Rhaegar (and Arthur and Oswell) refused to leave the tower upon Ser Gerold's arrival - until Ser Gerold offered that the three knights take Rhaegar's place at the tower to protect Lyanna and her (unborn?) child. That makes a lot of sense, actually, as we have all to assume that Rhaegar didn't give a fig about his duty to the Realm, the Iron Throne, or the dynasty at this point. He must have known what was going on by then, but he was obviously unwilling to leave that tower and fight against Robert.



Nothing suggests that Ser Gerold had the men - or the authority - to force Rhaegar to return back with him to KL, and there is also no reason to believe that Rhaegar would have been able to lead the Targaryen army had Ser Gerold brought him back to Aerys in chains. Not to mention that Oswell and Arthur were clearly on Rhaegar's side and would have potentially tried to take the old man out had he tried to lay a hand on Rhaegar.



In regards to the 'Kingsguard honor' of both Arthur and Oswell we have to keep in mind that both were very likely actively involved or at least privy to Rhaegar's plots against the king. It was Oswell who helped Rhaegar arrange the tourney at Harrenhal. This means that he must have known what to say to his brother about the true purpose of this tourney.


Ned Stark may be ignorant about all that, but we as readers should not consider Oswell and Arthur as paragons of KG duty as their foremost duty was to the king not to his heirs, the dynasty, or the Realm.



Ygrain's assumption that Rhaella may have preferred Lyanna's child over Viserys is problematic, I think. The picture TWoIaF draws of Queen Rhaella is that she was dutiful wife and despised sluts had affairs with other men - especially her own husbands (which is why she dismissed her ladies from her service if they entered a relationship with Aerys). I don't consider it very likely that such a woman would approve of and condone the polygamous second marriage of her son, let alone put a child from that union before her own son Viserys in the succession.


Rhaella did her duty and married her brother as she was commanded, and did apparently never have a romantic relationship outside of that. She was way too young to ever enter into a sexual relationship with Ser Bonifer Hasty. Thus it seems likely to me that Rhaella was not exactly happy with how Rhaegar treated Elia and endangered the Targaryen dynasty, and may actually have blamed Lyanna for leading him astray.


Men are allowed to have affairs and such, but mistreating the sister of the Prince of Dorne and running away with (and possibly taking) a noblewoman (to wife) who is betrothed to another great lord is an entirely different matter.



But even if none of this were true and Rhaella happy that her son had finally found 'love', it is not very likely that she prefer a grandchild from that union over her own children.



teej6.



Viserys himself may not have been aware that he was made Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent after the death of Rhaegar. And even if he was - why do we have to assume that he told Dany about that. He seems to have told her only the good stuff, and we also know that Rhaella shielded him from his father's madness as best she could - which means that he may actually have been ignorant about many things. Does Tommen know that Margaery and Cersei hate each other? I don't think so. Elia and her children effectively became hostages after Rhaegar's death (and may have been hostages even before that). You do not exactly tell this kind of stuff young children. And it did not really matter. Viserys was crowned shortly thereafter, when Aerys and Aegon both were (presumably) killed during the Sack.



I brought up the legal prattle stuff, but I do not necessarily think that Dany has to doubt Aegon's heritage to challenge his claim. Even if he is the real deal, if Aerys II passed over Aegon in favor of Viserys, and if Viserys III was the rightful Targaryen king since the death of Aerys II as Dany seems to believe, then she, as Viserys' heir, is the rightful queen.



Bloodraven's raven 'king' quotes are hints towards Jon's legitimate birth (although not conclusive hints - after all, bastards can be legitimized, no one knows that better than Bloodraven), but they are not necessarily decisive as to the succession. Just because Bloodraven seems to prefer Jon does not mean that he should/will be king or has the best legal claim - in fact, he has none, as he is a sworn brother of the NW.



We don't know what Bloodraven knows about Daenerys, actually. She was born on Dragonstone and never set a foot on the shore of Westeros, and as far as we know there are no weirwoods on Dragonstone. Bloodraven may not even know that she exists if the whole weirnet thing does not extend to Essos. But he might know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that Jon is their son.


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As the post by King Viserys Targaryen IV stated, if the 3 KG remained at the TOJ based on a promise they made to Rhaegar, why didn't one of them make an attempt to reach Viserys if they knew he was appointed heir by Aerys and therefore King? I don't see how Hightower would justify to himself that a vow he swore to Rhaegar would trump his primary KG vow of protecting his rightful King. Did Dayne and Whent convince or bully him into staying? From what's mentioned of Hightower in the books, I don't think this scenario is possible. And nowhere in Ned's dream of the KG encounter does it imply that Hightower was or he felt he was derelict in his KG duties.

Up until the release of the AWOIAF, the most common argument on this thread against Jon's claim to the IT was that Lyanna was not married to Rhaegar or that polygamy is not legal in Westeros and therefore Jon is a bastard and has no claim to the IT. Since the publication of ASOIAF, those that reject Jon having a claim to the IT have used the Viserys being named Aerys heir argument to nullify Jon's claim to the IT.

Viserys bypassing Aegon as Aerys heir was not common knowledge IMO or else we would have had someone in story mention this fact. And the argument that Jamie mentions Viserys is not a strong enough argument or else we would have been debating Viserys claim long before ASOIAF came out. Dany herself reflects that had Aegon lived, he would have been the sixth Aegon to sit the IT. Now Dany would never feel that way had she known Viserys was the rightful heir as she was Viserys heir and princess of Dragonstone. One could argue that as Dany was female all Targ male claimants came before her and that is why she thought of Aegon as king. But from Dany's thoughts this is not the impression I get. From her thoughts it seems like her brother Rhaegar was her father's heir and Aegon his.

Also, the books have several hints of Jon being king, and I find it highly unlikely that all these hints are for naught. I mean if we believe that BR is warging Mormont's raven, then it's highly likely that the raven's reference to king is directed at Jon.

As a poster up thread mentioned the second DwD will bring Dany's and the rest of Westeros views on Aegon's claim to the IT to light. Jon Con does not doubt Aegon's claim and he'd know that Viserys was Aery's heir had it been common knowledge. In that case, he'd also suspect that Dany might me the rightful Queen as Viserys named her his heir. Dany, if she disputes Aegon's claim, will do so because she thinks he's fake and not because she has a better claim to the IT than Rhaegar's son.

Edit: And Lady Gwynhyfvar, it's nice to see you're back. Misssed your insightful posts.

I think the bolded is the key hint that something significant was happening at the tower. Combine with Jaime's sentiment to Cat "That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.” Imo, if Jaime knew or thought Viserys was the heir, he'd hardly have expressed the "loyal to the end" part. And I believe your other arguments are solid-- afaik there's no indication from anyone who was present in the royal circle prior to the Rebellion that Rhaegar had been disinherited. The World Book has a slant (a very distinctive conceit in how the information is presented) and probably shouldn't be taken as absolute fact about things like this absent support from the text.

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Lady Gwyn,



Ran has stated that Yandel is referring official historical documents there. This is not a error.



Jaime only thinks about Viserys and Aegon after Aerys' death - when Aerys' decrees are null and void - it makes sense to assume that both Aegon and Viserys had good claims in the short time period while Aegon was still alive.



What Jaime means when stating the White Bull was loyal to the end is sort of unclear, don't you think? He could not have known that there was royal child at the tower, and thus subsequently must have thought that Ser Gerold stayed true to Rhaegar's last command to keep Lyanna Stark a hostage/prisoner or protect her.


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In regards to the 'Kingsguard honor' of both Arthur and Oswell we have to keep in mind that both were very likely actively involved or at least privy to Rhaegar's plots against the king. It was Oswell who helped Rhaegar arrange the tourney at Harrenhal. This means that he must have known what to say to his brother about the true purpose of this tourney.

I don't think Rhaegar looked like he was capable of organizing such a tourney by his own. Tywin is the best candidate for the shadow host.

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I don't think Rhaegar looked like he was capable of organizing such a tourney by his own. Tywin is the best candidate for the shadow host.

Why don't you think Rhaegar looked like he was capable? He was the one orchestrating taking down Aerys.

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Why don't you think Rhaegar looked like he was capable? He was the one orchestrating taking down Aerys.

He was the one trying to remove his father from the IT but didnot know how to do it and eventually failed miserably.

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He was the one trying to remove his father from the IT but didnot know how to do it and eventually failed miserably.

His miserable failure came down to losing one fight. If he wins it, then he would have succeeded spectacularly, I guess?

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Because Robert's Rebellion.

I don't get your reasoning

He was the one trying to remove his father from the IT but didnot know how to do it and eventually failed miserably.

There is nothing that says he did not know how to do it because we don't know what the actual plan was and how Lyanna factored into it or did not factor into it. And he lost because Robert's hammer got to his chest before Rhaegar's sword got to Robert's. That doesn't prove anything about Tywin being Puppetmaster.

His miserable failure came down to losing one fight. If he wins it, then he would have succeeded spectacularly, I guess?

Yes exactly. So I don't get how this relates to Tywin being the person who set up HH.

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Mithras is right, of course. There is no textual evidence of any sort and you have to go crackpot to figure it out: Therefore it is true.



Let's move on.



I wasn't talking about the money involved in the tourney - which could have been paid by Rhaegar according to Yandel because Rhaegar was rich - but about the fact that Ser Oswell was involved in the planning of the covert Great Council. Which means that at least that paragon of virtue had a big traitorous stain on his white armor.



Plotting against the king is a thing the Kingsguard should not be doing.


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I think the overall picture is quite clear. I am surprised you guys do not see it.



276: Tourney at Lannisport to celebrate the birth of Viserys. Tywin makes his offer to wed Cersei to Rhaegar. He was brusquely rejected. But we know that he promised Cersei to wed the prince. A Lannister always pays his debts.



277: Tywin secretly organized the Defiance of Duskendale. Reread that section in the Worldbook with this in mind. Tywin openly declared that he would not give any shit whether Aerys was killed or not and Rhaegar (unwed and unpromised) would make a much better king than Aerys.



Then, Barristan dooms his plans by saving Aerys.



After Duskendale, Aerys grew extremely suspicious of Tywin and Rhaegar.



Once safely returned to King’s Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin’s daughter.


Determined to prevent that from happening, King Aerys turned to another friend of his childhood, summoning Steffon Baratheon from Storm’s End and naming him to the small council. In 278 AC, the king sent Lord Steffon across the narrow sea on a mission to Old Volantis , to seek a suitable bride for Prince Rhaegar, “a maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline.” That His Grace entrusted this task to the Lord of Storm’s End rather than his Hand , or Rhaegar himself, speaks volumes. The rumors were rife that Aerys meant to make Lord Steffon his new Hand upon the successful completion of this mission, that Tywin Lannister was about to be removed from office, arrested, and tried for high treason. And there was many a lord who took delight in that prospect.


The gods had other notions, however. Steffon Baratheon’s mission ended in failure , and on his return from Volantis, his ship foundered and sank in Shipbreaker Bay, within sight of Storm’s End. Lord Steffon and his wife were both drowned as their two elder sons watched from the castle walls. When word of their deaths reached King’s Landing, King Aerys flew into a rage and told Grand Maester Pycelle that Tywin Lannister had somehow divined his royal intentions and arranged for Lord Baratheon’s murder. “If I dismiss him as Hand, he will kill me, too,” the king told the grand maester.



Paranoias of a madman?


I don't think so.



Seemingly secure in his office after the death of Steffon Baratheon, Lord Tywin even went so far as to bring his beautiful young daughter, Cersei, to court.



At this time, Rhaegar was married and Rhaenys was born.


But then, Aerys chose Jaime to KG and robbed Tywin of his bright heir.


Tywin devised the Great Council plan to remove Aerys from the IT without killing him. He sent word to Rhaegar and told him that he would be doing all the arrangements. At that time, Rhaegar didnot have a son and Elia was sickly. Tywin could have arranged that she would not survive the next childbirth and Rhaegar would be free to marry Cersei.


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Mithras is right, of course. There is no textual evidence of any sort and you have to go crackpot to figure it out: Therefore it is true.

Let's move on.

I wasn't talking about the money involved in the tourney - which could have been paid by Rhaegar according to Yandel because Rhaegar was rich - but about the fact that Ser Oswell was involved in the planning of the covert Great Council. Which means that at least that paragon of virtue had a big traitorous stain on his white armor.

Plotting against the king is a thing the Kingsguard should not be doing.

Lol. Do you really think that the Great Lords of the Realm would care the words of a person less than Tywin about such a groundbreaking idea to dethrone a king? Who the F are Whents to speak such things?

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MtnLion,

The problem could be easily solved if we take into account that the orders don't have to interfere with the vows. Or especially, in this delicate situation, that their interpretation of the orders doesn't interfere with their interpretation of the vows. The human factor and the truths people tell to themselves are not to be disregarded. I think that post-TWoIaF we need to allow for more room for the possibility of KG having strict orders and trying to obey them in the aftermath of Rhaegar's death.

( After all, Hightower trolls Ned. "We weren't there." No shit, Sherlock! :D)

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I think the overall picture is quite clear. I am surprised you guys do not see it.

276: Tourney at Lannisport to celebrate the birth of Viserys. Tywin makes his offer to wed Cersei to Rhaegar. He was brusquely rejected. But we know that he promised Cersei to wed the prince. A Lannister always pays his debts.

277: Tywin secretly organized the Defiance of Duskendale. Reread that section in the Worldbook with this in mind. Tywin openly declared that he would not give any shit whether Aerys was killed or not and Rhaegar (unwed and unpromised) would make a much better king than Aerys.

Then, Barristan dooms his plans by saving Aerys.

After Duskendale, Aerys grew extremely suspicious of Tywin and Rhaegar.

Once safely returned to King’s Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin’s daughter.

Determined to prevent that from happening, King Aerys turned to another friend of his childhood, summoning Steffon Baratheon from Storm’s End and naming him to the small council. In 278 AC, the king sent Lord Steffon across the narrow sea on a mission to Old Volantis , to seek a suitable bride for Prince Rhaegar, “a maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline.” That His Grace entrusted this task to the Lord of Storm’s End rather than his Hand , or Rhaegar himself, speaks volumes. The rumors were rife that Aerys meant to make Lord Steffon his new Hand upon the successful completion of this mission, that Tywin Lannister was about to be removed from office, arrested, and tried for high treason. And there was many a lord who took delight in that prospect.

The gods had other notions, however. Steffon Baratheon’s mission ended in failure , and on his return from Volantis, his ship foundered and sank in Shipbreaker Bay, within sight of Storm’s End. Lord Steffon and his wife were both drowned as their two elder sons watched from the castle walls. When word of their deaths reached King’s Landing, King Aerys flew into a rage and told Grand Maester Pycelle that Tywin Lannister had somehow divined his royal intentions and arranged for Lord Baratheon’s murder. “If I dismiss him as Hand, he will kill me, too,” the king told the grand maester.

Paranoias of a madman?

I don't think so.

Seemingly secure in his office after the death of Steffon Baratheon, Lord Tywin even went so far as to bring his beautiful young daughter, Cersei, to court.

At this time, Rhaegar was married and Rhaenys was born.

But then, Aerys chose Jaime to KG and robbed Tywin of his bright heir.

Tywin devised the Great Council plan to remove Aerys from the IT without killing him. He sent word to Rhaegar and told him that he would be doing all the arrangements. At that time, Rhaegar didnot have a son and Elia was sickly. Tywin could have arranged that she would not survive the next childbirth and Rhaegar would be free to marry Cersei.

Tywin hoping for Aerys' death when there was still a possibility to marry his daughter to the 17 year old prince who could rule in his own right, is quite a different thing from Tywing believing that the married crown-prince with a child of his own would be willing to have his own wife killed, so he can marry Tywin's daughter.

Especially not since the timeline points to Elia having been pregnant at Harrenhal already...

Also, it would appear that the tourney was anounced before it was decided that Jaime would be named to the KG... removing part of your motif..

Lol. Do you really think that the Great Lords of the Realm would care the words of a person less than Tywin about such a groundbreaking idea to dethrone a king? Who the F are Whents to speak such things?

I think the lords of the realm would think that this man who has been shamed and wronged by the king occasion after occasion is planning nothing more than personal revenge, should he suggest such a plan..

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Tywin hoping for Aerys' death when there was still a possibility to marry his daughter to the 17 year old prince who could rule in his own right, is quite a different thing from Tywing believing that the married crown-prince with a child of his own would be willing to have his own wife killed, so he can marry Tywin's daughter.

Especially not since the timeline points to Elia having been pregnant at Harrenhal already...

Also, it would appear that the tourney was anounced before it was decided that Jaime would be named to the KG... removing part of your motif..

Did I say that Tywin told Rhaegar that he would kill Elia?

I think the lords of the realm would think that this man who has been shamed and wronged by the king occasion after occasion is planning nothing more than personal revenge, should he suggest such a plan..

Does not matter. Tywin had to convince them that Aerys was nuts and had to be removed anyway.

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