R+L=J v.136

[Ser Creighton]

Why don't you think Rhaegar looked like he was capable? He was the one orchestrating taking down Aerys.

I think Rhaegar was part of it, but I tend to think Tywin was involved most notably the prizes. The lord of Harrenhal it is stated could not afford these, and Harrenhal has rich lands. Dragonstone as we learn from Tywin is not exactly rich, so Rhaegar either took from the crown and when the numbers seem to have been this big, it seems it would of been noticed, by lets say the master of coin. Tywin on the Other hand is loaded, and well off stage in the shadows. Plus at that point in time both men wanted the same thing. The first person Rhaegar had contacted upon his return to KL is Tywin. So they seem to have a relationship. This is ssomething far more extravagant than lets say the Tourney of the hand and those were some big prizes.

Rhaegar grew up with Tywin in his home and as his dads closest friend and advisor, later they fell out but for a long time very close. I could see why Rhaegar would turn to him when his dad was losinng it, this is not exactly the Tywin we know, Rhaegar Knew Tywin before his Wife died, before Tyrion was born, when he and his dad were friends. They probably had a good relationship. In fact one of the reasons Tywin may have stayed around was at the behest of Rhaegar and maybe his mom. I can't really say Rhaegar seemed like he was in the shadows as one of his friends brother was asked to hold the tourney, and everyone seemed to know Rhaegar was trying to gain support. Tywin has no problem making it look like someone else his doing his work for him in order to stay out of the picture, Frey and Bolton come to mind.

[Ygritte]

Ran has stated that Yandel is referring official historical documents there. This is not a error.

But the official historical documents are fictional too. It's not like GRRM himself went to the Library of Congress and read a real, actual document and faithfully recorded it in the book. It's all made up, and all of it is designed to suit the story in some way. I was saying in another thread the other day that the worldbook stuff isn't necessarily all true, but that doesn't make it useless either; it tells us interesting places to look and gives us clues to think about.

[BearQueen87]

I think Rhaegar was part of it, but I tend to think Tywin was involved most notably the prizes. The lord of Harrenhal it is stated could not afford these, and Harrenhal has rich lands. Dragonstone as we learn from Tywin is not exactly rich, so Rhaegar either took from the crown and when the numbers seem to have been this big, it seems it would of been noticed, by lets say the master of coin. Tywin on the Other hand is loaded, and well off stage in the shadows. Plus at that point in time both men wanted the same thing. The first person Rhaegar had contacted upon his return to KL is Tywin. So they seem to have a relationship. This is ssomething far more extravagant than lets say the Tourney of the hand and those were some big prizes.

Rhaegar grew up with Tywin in his home and as his dads closest friend and advisor, later they fell out but for a long time very close. I could see why Rhaegar would turn to him when his dad was losinng it, this is not exactly the Tywin we know, Rhaegar Knew Tywin before his Wife died, before Tyrion was born, when he and his dad were friends. They probably had a good relationship. In fact one of the reasons Tywin may have stayed around was at the behest of Rhaegar and maybe his mom. I can't really say Rhaegar seemed like he was in the shadows as one of his friends brother was asked to hold the tourney, and everyone seemed to know Rhaegar was trying to gain support. Tywin has no problem making it look like someone else his doing his work for him in order to stay out of the picture, Frey and Bolton come to mind.

Well sure. But completely dismissing Rhaegar seems foolish. Tywin helping from afar? Sure, I could see that. But it being solely Tywin's machinations with Rhaegar ignorant and not playing a hugely significant and major role? Not so much.

[sj4iy]

But the official historical documents are fictional too. It's not like GRRM himself went to the Library of Congress and read a real, actual document and faithfully recorded it in the book. It's all made up, and all of it is designed to suit the story in some way. I was saying in another thread the other day that the worldbook stuff isn't necessarily all true, but that doesn't make it useless either; it tells us interesting places to look and gives us clues to think about.

Agreed.

In any case, this information really means nothing unless it can be proven that the 3 KG out at the ToJ knew about it. Which it can't. And even then, it would depend on whether or not they would see it as applicable to all of Rhaegar's children by any woman, and even then, whether they would accept it.

Basically...I don't see it as meaning anything at all in the greater story because there's too many caveats.

[Ser Creighton]

Well sure. But completely dismissing Rhaegar seems foolish. Tywin helping from afar? Sure, I could see that. But it being solely Tywin's machinations with Rhaegar ignorant and not playing a hugely significant and major role? Not so much.

Of course Rhaegar was involved, he sent Whent to organize it with his brother, and literally tells you I meant to call a great council.

[Ygritte]

Agreed.

In any case, this information really means nothing unless it can be proven that the 3 KG out at the ToJ knew about it. Which it can't. And even then, it would depend on whether or not they would see it as applicable to all of Rhaegar's children by any woman, and even then, whether they would accept it.

Basically...I don't see it as meaning anything at all in the greater story because there's too many caveats.

Oooh. That's another thing I hadn't thought of. What if, instead of wording his decree as "Viserys is now my heir," Aerys wrote "Rhaenys and Aegon are hereby disinherited." If you (general you) don't know Jon exists, then that would imply that Viserys is now the heir, but another legit child of Rhaegar wasn't disinherited simply because Aerys didn't know about him.

[BearQueen87]

Agreed.

In any case, this information really means nothing unless it can be proven that the 3 KG out at the ToJ knew about it. Which it can't. And even then, it would depend on whether or not they would see it as applicable to all of Rhaegar's children by any woman, and even then, whether they would accept it.

Basically...I don't see it as meaning anything at all in the greater story because there's too many caveats.

Agreed. No one seems to know about this outside of whatever historical document was written and Yandel is using. Viserys doesn't mention it, Dany doesn't mention it (and in fact, she states that Aegon would have been the next King), even Robert doesn't say anything about how Viserys was Aerys's heir when he is in a tizzy over what was happening in Essos in AGOT.

So while I have no doubt now, thanks to Ran, that there was a historical document that named Viserys as Aerys's heir, I'm not sure how much it changes things at all because no one seems to know. And now Viserys is dead and I don't think the Lords of Westeros are going to chose their next king based on "who is the true Targ heir."

Of course Rhaegar was involved, he sent Whent to organize it with his brother, and literally tells you I meant to call a great council.

Yes, I know and agree. But Mithras seems to think that this is 100% Tywin and that Rhaegar was just a chess piece in Tywin's game.

[BearQueen87]

Oooh. That's another thing I hadn't thought of. What if, instead of wording his decree as "Viserys is now my heir," Aerys wrote "Rhaenys and Aegon are hereby disinherited." If you (general you) don't know Jon exists, then that would imply that Viserys is now the heir, but another legit child of Rhaegar wasn't disinherited simply because Aerys didn't know about him.

Oooh. That's an interesting idea. Shame Yandel didn't write what was in the document, just makes a reference to a "thing" that happened.

[Ygritte]

Agreed. No one seems to know about this outside of whatever historical document was written and Yandel is using. Viserys doesn't mention it, Dany doesn't mention it (and in fact, she states that Aegon would have been the next King), even Robert doesn't say anything about how Viserys was Aerys's heir when he is in a tizzy over what was happening in Essos in AGOT.

So while I have no doubt now, thanks to Ran, that there was a historical document that named Viserys as Aerys's heir, I'm not sure how much it changes things at all because no one seems to know. And now Viserys is dead and I don't think the Lords of Westeros are going to chose their next king based on "who is the true Targ heir."

And really, with Viserys' personality, I think he'd have boasted of it if he'd known.

[BearQueen87]

And really, with Viserys' personality, I think he'd have boasted of it if he'd known.

LOL yeah, several of us have brought that up many times before to no avail.

[Mithras]

Yes, I know and agree. But Mithras seems to think that this is 100% Tywin and that Rhaegar was just a chess piece in Tywin's game.

Perhaps I didnot make it clear. Of course there was cooperation between Tywin and Rhaegar for the Tourney at Harrenhal and the expected Great Council. But Tywin's plans to wed Cersei to Rhaegar started much before than Harrenhal and most of the time, Rhaegar was ignorant of his plans.

Rhaegar does not have the statesman skills to organize a Great Council. Neither the Whents. Tywin's signature is written all over Harrenhal. That is why he should be the shadow host but that does not mean that Rhaegar was not involved. As SC explained, Rhaegar knew a different Tywin than we do and he could have trusted him easily. After all, considering the deep suspicions of Aerys, these two were natural allies.

[Consigliere]

The "historical document" = whatever Pycelle documented - which is probably accurate information since Pycelle has no motive to lie about this. However, it does not make much sense that Viserys being named heir was widely disseminated information what with four of the kingdoms in open rebellion, the Westerlands remaining neutral up to that point but Tywin and Aerys not being on good terms, and the loyalists just suffering a crushing defeat at the Trident. Seems far more plausible that this decree was not known outside of the small council.

[BearQueen87]

Perhaps I didnot make it clear. Of course there was cooperation between Tywin and Rhaegar for the Tourney at Harrenhal and the expected Great Council. But Tywin's plans to wed Cersei to Rhaegar started much before than Harrenhal and most of the time, Rhaegar was ignorant of his plans.

Rhaegar does not have the statesman skills to organize a Great Council. Neither the Whents. Tywin's signature is written all over Harrenhal. That is why he should be the shadow host but that does not mean that Rhaegar was not involved. As SC explained, Rhaegar knew a different Tywin than we do and he could have trusted him easily. After all, considering the deep suspicions of Aerys, these two were natural allies.

Okay. I buy cooperation between Tywin and Rhaegar, though I'm not sure that "Rhaegar does not have the statesmen skills to organize a Great Council" is true. Was he as adept and cunning as Tywin? No, but very few (any?) people in Westeros are. However, the World Book, I think, puts to rest the idea that Rhaegar was just a harp playing, prophetically inclined, emo-prince. The fact that he and Tywin are playing a game together at all would show that he has skills. Also, there is one thing working for Rhaegar that Tywin doesn't have: Rhaegar is the crown prince. When the Crown Prince, Prince of DS, and heir to the 7 kingdoms demands an audience....then you put on your riding boots and set out.

Tywin funded it and made is shiny, but that doesn't mean it was *his* idea

The "historical document" = whatever Pycelle documented - which is probably accurate information since Pycelle has no motive to lie about this. However, it does not make much sense that Viserys being named heir was widely disseminated information what with four of the kingdoms in open rebellion, the Westerlands remaining neutral up to that point but Tywin and Aerys not being on good terms, and the loyalists just suffering a crushing defeat at the Trident. Seems far more plausible that this decree was not known outside of the small council.

:agree:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps I didnot make it clear. Of course there was cooperation between Tywin and Rhaegar for the Tourney at Harrenhal and the expected Great Council. But Tywin's plans to wed Cersei to Rhaegar started much before than Harrenhal and most of the time, Rhaegar was ignorant of his plans.

Rhaegar does not have the statesman skills to organize a Great Council. Neither the Whents. Tywin's signature is written all over Harrenhal. That is why he should be the shadow host but that does not mean that Rhaegar was not involved. As SC explained, Rhaegar knew a different Tywin than we do and he could have trusted him easily. After all, considering the deep suspicions of Aerys, these two were natural allies.

We have no idea whether Rhaegar knew... Bringing Cersei to court wasn't very subtle, though...

Two people being against one person, stent automatically brothers in arms...

[Lord Varys]

Tywin was not at Harrenhal, and thus it is very likely that he had nothing to do with it. Nothing suggests that Rhaegar and Tywin were particularly close, either. We know that Rhaegar was at Duskendale, but that's it. And that's no surprise, either. If my father was a hostage I'd also try find out what's going on. But this does not mean that I'm close to his staff members.

We know that the Crown was very rich under Aerys - which means House Targaryen was rich. Rhaegar's personal wealth would not necessary have come from his lands on Dragonstone. Tyrion does not hold any lands, either, yet he has plenty of gold because his father apparently gives him funds. Aerys would have given Rhaegar gold, too.

We have no reason to believe that Rhaegar and Tywin were had anything to do with each other after the marriage to Elia. There is a good chance that Tywin would have handed over Rhaegar to Aerys had he approached him with treasonous ideas. Destroying Rhaegar would have given Tywin the possibility to marry Cersei to Viserys - which we know he considered a possibility.

If Tywin had plotted against Aerys he would have been at Harrenhal. Especially after Aerys stole Jaime. Tywin resigning instead of rebelling is a pretty big sign that he was disappointed how his childhood treated him, not plotting to depose/murder him.

Duskendale was not an attempt to kill Aerys. Tywin simply had no other options. One could interpret the whole thing as the beginning of a conspiracy. But Tywin just stating that Rhaegar would be a better king does not mean that he was ready to murder the king. Tyrion also talked about Joff and Tommen this way - yet he did never plot to murder/depose Joffrey.

[Ser Creighton]

LOL yeah, several of us have brought that up many times before to no avail.

The thing is the citadel knows, and that is a powerful influence, but also and maybe it is me, it does feel like a bit of a retcon. Jaime seems to have no iinsight into this but it is also not really addresssed with him. Tyrion on the other hand was a boy and it does not seem his area, but how would Varys not know? Then again it is not addressed he is putting forth a claimant.

A big part of it is again perception. Like Tyrion and Jaime, never think about Viserys, Selmy does but feared he was to much like his father. It is not really addressed in the books and it seems Martin suddenly wanted to address it or clear things up a bit. By clear up I mean make the waters more murky but also clear things up. I guess more problems for the characters but more legal disclosure.

It does create a more Dance like frame work, it fills in that parallel more, I still say he contrasts it. Ummm I don't think Dany or will Jon have much to do with Aegon, they do not seem to have time for those plot lines to intersect. I see Aegon going at it with Stannis and Lannister and Tyrell, that seems to be clearly the next phase of all this for those characters. While Dany and Jon still sit on the periphery and Jon has been taken out of action for a bit here and Dany has a lot to deal with in her own story. She has all the slaver stuff to deal with and Tyrion and Vic and that horn. Meanwhile Aegon, Stannis, Lannister, Tyrell, Varys and LF are all positioning to make a move for the throne. That story is literally happening now and Dany and Jon are well out of the picture right now. Stannis did not leave just to deal with the Boltons, Stannis wants to head south and deal with uniting the kingdom under him. If Aegon takes Stormsend as planned that involves conflict with Stannis and Aegon not Dany or Jon. For me that is where I see the plot lines starting to intersect. One group is moving toward eachother and the other 2 or three are way way out on the edges with there own shit to deal with.

As you know I am really intrested to see where Brie and Jaime end up. I know the show is doing one thing but I also noticed it is Dany dealing with the dagger there. Now Jon may as well which is a strong parallel.

On thing I consider is that all the players that seem to be intersecting right now, are younger brother. Stannis is, Aegon is, Loras or Garlan. Even with Aegon being fake the identity given is still the younger brother. Cersei has that parallel to the Mad king though inverted, female. The made king would not let anyone touch him with a blade so his nails and hair grew very long, on the other hand Cersei was just shaved, totally and did not have choice in it. I honestly think we get Stannis on the trident vs. Aegon. Then it seems like one of them loses and the Tyrells betray Cersei, the winner arrives and where Aerys failed to burn down KL Jaime' lesser half will not. And right around the time KL goes I think the shit with the Other hits the fan.

But will see I think will see the pieces move into place this season on the show. Stannis, the North, the Vale and Probably Tryst and Dorne, and the Tyrells play the wild card this time.

[Mithras]

Tywin was not at Harrenhal, and thus it is very likely that he had nothing to do with it....

Varys was not present during the riot at the KL but it was 99.9% his work.

[Lord Varys]

Well, do you know that he was not one of the rioters...?

Tywin had nothing to gain by first financing Harrenhal and then not attending. And if Rhaegar had plotted him wouldn't you think that they would have arranged the tourney at ... Lannisport?

Tywin was no close friend or companion of Rhaegar's. Those were Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Jon Connington, the Darry squire, and Richard Lonmouth - and by extension their families. Ser Kevan's thoughts hint at a distance between Tywin and himself, and Rhaegar's gang - most likely due to the age difference as well as the fact that Tywin was essentially always Aerys' man - until he was not.

[Ygrain]

Again it's not clear that his respect for them stems from their unflinching protection of whoever they think should be king.

Well, that is what defines them as kingsguard, it is a fulfillment of their duty. If a soldier or policeman dies defending the innocents, he will be considered an exemplary soldier/policeman. If a shop-assistant dies defending the innocents, s/he will be considered a hero but not an exemplary shop-assistant because that heroic act had nothing to do with being a shop-assistant.

There is really nothing more I wish to say to this.

[RumHam]

Oh I never noticed that.

And really, with Viserys' personality, I think he'd have boasted of it if he'd known.

I don't see why he would specifically boast that he was his fathers appointed heir rather than just boast that he is the rightful king. The fact that we don't see him boasting about this is hardly evidence that it he didn't know.

Agreed. No one seems to know about this outside of whatever historical document was written and Yandel is using. Viserys doesn't mention it, Dany doesn't mention it (and in fact, she states that Aegon would have been the next King), even Robert doesn't say anything about how Viserys was Aerys's heir when he is in a tizzy over what was happening in Essos in AGOT.

So while I have no doubt now, thanks to Ran, that there was a historical document that named Viserys as Aerys's heir, I'm not sure how much it changes things at all because no one seems to know. And now Viserys is dead and I don't think the Lords of Westeros are going to chose their next king based on "who is the true Targ heir."

The fact that nobody mentions it does not suggest they didn't know, because it never comes up. Why would anyone mention it since the point was moot the moment Aegon died? Just because something is not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen.

and to quote myself from the last thread:

Jamie does think of Viserys first when Crakehall asks about crowning a new king.

As for Aegon VI, I don't think he was disinherited. Naming someone as your heir does not necessarily mean the previous heir apparent is disinherited, just that the person you've named comes first. (Just as Viserys I didn't disinherit Daemon when he named Rhaenyra his heir, if Rhaenyra had died Daemon would have once again been next in line.) So yes had he lived Rhaegar's son would have been "Aegon VI" in the sense that Daenerys considers her brother "Viserys III."

Edit: And if for some reason you don't find that explanation satisfactory, it's far from the only minor retcon introduced by The World of Ice and Fire. It's not as bad as Barristan claiming all Egg's children married and Tyrion pointing out that Meraxes was larger that Vhagar even though Vhagar was like a hundred years older..

Well, that is what defines them as kingsguard, it is a fulfillment of their duty. If a soldier or policeman dies defending the innocents, he will be considered an exemplary soldier/policeman. If a shop-assistant dies defending the innocents, s/he will be considered a hero but not an exemplary shop-assistant because that heroic act had nothing to do with being a shop-assistant.

There is really nothing more I wish to say to this.

:cheers: