Dornish Debates IV

[Julia Martell]

Oh, I have head canon. NEVER doubt that I have head canon.

The fact that 50% of the people in charge are women kind of necessitates that education me more equal. I mean, Dorne isn’t an “equal” society when it comes to gender, there are definite male and female spheres, war and needlework probably being the most obvious examples, but as far as I can tell, government just happens to not be one of those divided spheres. And how can it be, 50% of the people in charge are women.

And it makes sense, if your going to train women to govern and administer, as you must by necessity in Dorne, then you might as well use them. And Dorne seems to be more bureaucratic and centralized then the other kingdoms, so they probably place quite a bit a value on competent administration in their education.

As for septas, there don’t seem to be as many hanging around in Dorne as there is elsewhere. And Arianne is, I believe, the only female POV character other than Dany who doesn’t at some point reminisce about their Septa, so I think it’s quite possible that she never had one. If she did, then the woman did a horrible job.

So you wanted head canon: here’s mine. Outside of Dorne highborn girls’ education is 50% religion/history and politics through a very religious lens, 30% needlework, 10% reading, writing, and arithmetic, 10% music, dancing, misc. In Dorne, it’s more like 50% history and politics with the focus on theoretical and practical principles of governance, 20% reading, writing, and arithmetic, 10% needlework, 10% religion, 10% music, dancing, misc.

[naseridrl]

Lol, Dornish Julia to the rescue with her great and numerous spectacular Dornish headcanons.

I too agree that Dorne seems to be more centralized with a greater emphasis on bureaucracy. Maybe because of that they have somewhat of a somewhat relative meritocracy in terms of giving the position to the best candidate. Plus if your pool of candidate for a job includes both genders your ability to get the right person and not have the settle is greater due to their being more people to chose from.

I wonder if septa's do have a place in Dornish society they just have to adapt to a role where a woman's place is different. So maybe they just spend much less time with the girls so their role isn't as big as elsewhere. So instead of a girl like Valena Toland only spends a day a week with her septa instead of interacting with her everyday and seeing her as a babysitter type person who oversees all of a girls education.

[Julia Martell]

Meritocracy within the extremely small section of society seen as fit to rule by virtue of birth, yeah. They just have one less arbitrary restriction on who’s allowed to rule then everyone else.

I think the whole “septa system” north of the mountains is very tinged with patriarchy. A septa is also suppose to be a chaperone to ensure that a girl’s sexual virtue is above question. We can, and have, argued about what a typical Dornish woman’s sex life might be like, (word of god says that Arianne is NOT typical, but there’s quite a bit of area between her and, like, abstinence so...) but it seems clear to me that a woman’s “honour” isn’t tied quite so much to her sexual conduct as it is elsewhere (see The Soiled Knight) so having septas fulfilling this kind of role is probably seen as unnecessary in Dorne.

[SeanF]

As for septas, there don’t seem to be as many hanging around in Dorne as there is elsewhere. And Arianne is, I believe, the only female POV character other than Dany who doesn’t at some point reminisce about their Septa, so I think it’s quite possible that she never had one. If she did, then the woman did a horrible job.

Maybe Arianne's Septa had unusual ideas.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hi, there.

I suggest to open a Dornish thread in the show subforum. For exclusive discussion of Dorne/Porne in the show, whether good or bad.

If you agree, I will open. :)

[naseridrl]

Meritocracy within the extremely small section of society seen as fit to rule by virtue of birth, yeah. They just have one less arbitrary restriction on who’s allowed to rule then everyone else.

Yeah, meritocracy within the confines of the feudal world. But even just adding one less restriction does open things up to getting better candidates more suited to the job. I've always seen the wildlings as having some sort of meritocracy too. They follow great warriors or seers or witches, if you are gifted and capable in an area the wildlings seem comfortable following that. It's all relative of course given the world but it makes things interesting to have those contrasts to the norm.

Do we near anything about how Septa Mordane adapted in the North? I'm drawing a blank I'm afraid but those kids were raised with both gods in mind. So maybe when septas/septons go to places like the North and Dorne the adapt to get the best result possible in the environment they are in. Maybe in Dorne the role of teaching sewing and courtly manner and all that is done by a career woman instead of a Septa? Maybe they employ them like they would a dancing master etc?

[HexMachina]

Isn't one of Cersei's septas Dornish? So there are, at least, Septas from Dorne, even.if there are not necessarily Dornish septas...

I know what I mean, even if that sentencd makes.no sense :p

[Julia Martell]

Isn't one of Cersei's septas Dornish? So there are, at least, Septas from Dorne, even.if there are not necessarily Dornish septas...

I know what I mean, even if that sentencd makes.no sense :P

Our learned colleague Chebyshov has made a definitive ranking of all the Septas named in aSoIaF, and I don’t believe any of them are explicitly Dornish. One of more of them might be, I guess.

But, yeah, I see no reason to assume there aren’t religious people in Dorne. I’d like to think they’re not as into slut shaming as dear old Unella is, but some one needs to perform the snobby political marriages.

But in general, I have this sneaky suspicion based on nothing that the Faith isn’t and never was as powerful in Dorne as it was else where. I can’t imagine the Faith Militant ever putting people on trial for fornication, for example. And the High Septon’s blessing on Aegon the Conqueror didn’t seem to have any effect on Princess Meria or her successors.

[naseridrl]

I also think if the Faith did have any hold it died when a bunch of very different people arrived on boats. Also Dorne was never truly unified until relatively recently compared to the other areas within Westeros, that may mean that there are also families in Dorne who worshipped gods of nature like the old gods. There may never have been one single faith in Dorne, there isn't now so there probably wasn't then.

The Faith also seems in its own way quite adaptable It doesn't punish none believers, it doesn't crusade. So maybe once the tide turned towards the Rhoynar way in Dorne they just adapted to be sure they had a place in Dorne especially as Nymeria was winning. In they end they probably just didn't think it was worth antagonising the new order and made the best of the situation.

[HexMachina]

Our learned colleague Chebyshov has made a definitive ranking of all the Septas named in aSoIaF, and I don’t believe any of them are explicitly Dornish. One of more of them might be, I guess.

But, yeah, I see no reason to assume there aren’t religious people in Dorne. I’d like to think they’re not as into slut shaming as dear old Unella is, but some one needs to perform the snobby political marriages.

But in general, I have this sneaky suspicion based on nothing that the Faith isn’t and never was as powerful in Dorne as it was else where. I can’t imagine the Faith Militant ever putting people on trial for fornication, for example. And the High Septon’s blessing on Aegon the Conqueror didn’t seem to have any effect on Princess Meria or her successors.

Hmm, interesting. I don't know about pre-Aegon, but I suppose the Rhoynish roots of the Dornish would prevent the Faith from being as fully embraced as it is elsewhere in the Seven Kingdoms. And after Maeogr and Jaehaerys of course, the Faith lost an awful lot of its power in any case. I think you are probably correct though, because even in a Feast for Crows/a Dance with Dragons, we don't really get any mention of the Sparrow movement in Dorne. Maybe that is just because they were not involved in the war, which provided the perfect breeding ground for the Sparrows, but even so, you'd think a mass religious movement such as that would stir people in Dorne if they were in any way devout followers of the Seven.

Great list on the septas btw Chebyshov :) I know why I thought one of Cersei's septas was Dornish now though

Septa Scolera was thick-waisted and short, with heavy breasts, olive skin, and a sour smell to her, like milk on the verge of going bad.

Just her appearance

[Chebyshov]

Great list on the septas btw Chebyshov :) I know why I thought one of Cersei's septas was Dornish now though

Haha, many thanks. I'm a pro at "definitive rankings." I should do a Dornish one. Houses? I'm so biased.

Just her appearance

Well Scolera also has that bell ringing, so she and Trys could form a little musical duo with his finger drums. She could be Dornish :dunno:. Though the HR=HS fans will tell you they're all Northern women.

[HexMachina]

Haha, many thanks. I'm a pro at "definitive rankings." I should do a Dornish one. Houses? I'm so biased.

Well Scolera also has that bell ringing, so she and Trys could form a little musical duo with his finger drums. She could be Dornish :dunno:. Though the HR=HS fans will tell you they're all Northern women.

Then it must be true :rolleyes: :p Just like Oberyn founded the Bloody Mummers.... ;) (different theory/theorist, same ilk) But on a more serious note, it was just the olive skin, which a quick search seemed to show was used most often to describe Dornish and those from the Free Cities.

Definitive list of Dornish names? :dunno: (I'm still annoyed we don't know the name of Oberyn, Doran and Elia's mother)

[naseridrl]

Headcanon time again, Julia start your engines.

Does anyone have any ideas why the Rhoynar female fighter culture was went out of style? I know Nymeria was more commander than warrior but she still knew about military matters and was very capable, plus even if she never fought much plenty of the women she arrived with were fighters. Her daughters carried on leading after her in much the same way she lead so what happened to the culture of warrior women/commanders that the Rhoyne had?

Was it a sacrifice that the Rhoynar made, they'd changed Dorne enough so they bent to some of the native ways themselves. Has it maybe not ended in terms of being a commander of troops its just that Arianne didn't get training in it due to there being ''plans'' afoot? That seems unlikely though or she might have have mentioned it Are warrior women maybe more accepted as long as they don't do traditional knightly things like Lady Lance?

Or do we not know enough about Dorne to really guess one way or another about how women and fighting go together?

[Julia Martell]

Well, I’ve argued many times that we shouldn't see Dornish culture as just a transplantation of Rhoynar ways into the desert, but rather as a marriage of First Men, Andal, and Rhoynar traditions into something that is more than the sum of it’s parts and unique from all three.

I don’t think we have evidence one way or another that ruling women in Dorne don’t make military decisions conceding the defence of their own lands and the disposition of their own levies, but I would find it rather strange if they didn’t.

And since we’re talking about head canon, I’ve always imagined that Mama Martell, or whoever else, would never have fought in combat herself but probably had as much control over military affairs as men north of the mountains who can’t fight personally in combat for other reasons have. For example, Willas Tyrell can’t fight because of his injury, but no one seems to think it’s inappropriate that he direct the defence of the Reach in general. And Doran seems to think that these are thing Arianne should know about. (In which case he should have told her about them, but that’s another conversation...) But both Willas and Arianne would probably be expected to defer to more experienced soldiers about battle tactics and such, not because of their gender, but because that’s not an area where they have personal experience. Delegation is part of leadership too, you know.

So I do think that women in Dorne are seen as capable of choosing battle commanders, or deciding on overall war strategy, even if there are other cultural reasons that prevent them from actually fighting.

And if you want some DEEP head canon: you know how on Star Trek the Cardassians have this stereotype that women are crappy soldiers and men are crappy scientists? Well, I think the Dornish have a similar thing, men are better fighters, and women are better accountants. This is based on absolutely nothing but the level of amusement I get from imagining Alyse Ladybright making sexist comments about how Oberyn can’t stay on a budget.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is based on absolutely nothing but the level of amusement I get from imagining Alyse Ladybright making sexist comments about how Oberyn can’t stay on a budget.

"My Prince, we had already established how many money your brother would receive this month for his expenses but..."

"But...?"

"He returned with one more child".

[Julia Martell]

"My Prince, we had already established how many money your brother would receive this month for his expenses but..."

"But...?"

"He returned with one more child".

That only happened four times! Jeez! Get off his case already!

But yeah, this is Oberyn. He tips in gold dragons.

[naseridrl]

Oddly I've never thought of Oberyn paying for anything. He seems the type to charm everyone else into paying. Unless its his poisons, then I imagine he'd bankrupt Dorne to get the new poison on the block so he can find out how its made and make it better.

[Chebyshov]

Not to mention Mama Martell probably had to donate a bit to the Citadel for Oberyn to do his piece-meal education that he never finished.

We decided he took some time off, right? Where was that Oberyn timeline again...

[Julia Martell]

Not to mention Mama Martell probably had to donate a bit to the Citadel for Oberyn to do his piece-meal education that he never finished.

We decided he took some time off, right? Where was that Oberyn timeline again...

Or how about that Mother House where Tyene spontaneously appeared nine months after Oberyn’s visit. They got to build a new block of penitents’ cells AND get the statue of the Mother a new outfit.

[naseridrl]

Or how about that Mother House where Tyene spontaneously appeared nine months after Oberyn’s visit. They got to build a new block of penitents’ cells AND get the statue of the Mother a new outfit.

I wonder what happened to her mother? Tyene visited her so she cant have been that badly punished she clearly had contact with her daughter. Although maybe it was hard to say no when the future Princess of Dorne was coming too.

But I suppose knowing Oberyn he probably just rocked up one day with the kids for a visit and the Mother House was put on mass lock down and double chastity belt were handed out once he was spotted on the horizon.