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Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn


Durran Durrandon

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Actually.... Journey with me here for a second. I was rereading the prophecy of the stallion who mounts the world chapter, and I think there is something completely different going on there. Note the terror with which the one eyed seer looks at Dany - why should the seer be afraid of the Stallion whose khlaasars will cover the earth? The warriors whose araks will shine like razor grass? I'm not sure what razor grass is, but I know that Ghost grass shines with the souls of the damned, looks like milkglass, has long sharp stalks more than 6ft tall, and it prophesied to cover the earth. And what is a stallion or horse that can mount the whole world?

It's a horse who is not a horse - it's actually Yggdrasil, which can be translated as either "Odin's Horse" or "gallows." Yggdrasil is a world tree, meaning that it represents the cosmic axis, with its roots in the underworld and it's leafy canopy making up the starry sky. Odin also had an actual horse, an eight legged one named Slepnir, and both the horse and the tree enable some kind of spirit walking activity. The tree itself is a part of Odin - does this sound familiar yet?

The stallion who shall cover the world is the eight legged kind, I am thinking, the ones with milkglass weapons. Hooked up to the tree, a greenseer can indeed mount the entire world.

The Dothraki themselves believe the stars are a fiery Khalasar. Stars are flaming horses. Who is the flaming horse that mounts the world? The fallen star which created a firestorm, the second moon. Those flaming dragons (or horses) did indeed "mount" the whole world, filling the entire sky with fire. The moon meteor which hit Westeros was remembered as the Hammer of the Waters, which was supposedly called down by...

The people who are hung on trees and spirit walk. The Yggdrasil tree on which the weirwoods were modeled is somehow perceived as an eight legged horse, so these greenseers are indeed mounting a horse of sorts. If the greenseers had something to do with creating the Others, as they might well have done, then we see a further link between the children and the concept of Yggdrasil.

I don't know if the greenseers really did have anything to do with calling down the Hammer - I know it was a moon meteor, but we just don't know what the limits of cotf power are - but if they did, they called the stallion who mounted the world, and they did it by mounting their own stallion, the weirwood net which enables spirit walking.

The result of this hammer and firestorm, after the fires went out, was the Long Night - a winter where the warriors with shining crystal weapons that sound like ghost grass did indeed try to cover the earth.

I know this is all a bit confusing - this is what it looks like when I am exploring ideas instead of presenting ideas that I have fine tuned for weeks. I'm only just learning the second layer of stuff about Yggdrasil recently, so I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it. But clearly, it was a big influence for the weirwoods, so I think it's worth understanding. I also think that some of the visions the various seers see as prophecies may actually be glimpses of the past, or perhaps glimpses of the parts of the past which are set to replay themselves, making them a bit of both. This stallion who mounts the world has implications beyond Rhaego, I think. I think the seer was drawing the wrong conclusions, like Mel often does.

I'm curious if anyone has picked up anything strange about this scene, or if any of this makes any sense to anyone. :)

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The most satisfactory translation of the name Yggdrasil is ‘Odin’s Horse’. Ygg is another name for Odin, and drasill means ‘horse’. However, drasill also means ‘walker’, or ‘pioneer’. Some scholars would argue that the name means ‘Odinwalker’. In some parts of the manuscript, Yggdrasil and Odin seem to be one and the same.

When Odin hung, speared, for nine days on the World Tree, he uttered the words that he had ‘sacrificed himself onto himself’.

Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/norse-legend-world-tree-yggdrasil-002680#ixzz3eOriTnJG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well it seems like you're making a pretty arbitrary choice for what's a likely connection and what isn't. Off the bat, I'd say it's supremely naive to say ANYTHING known about the Long Night is "pretty safe": we get some details, but they are qualified by repeated mentions of the First Men not being literate and everything being written down thousands of years after the fact. When an author tells you something like that, repeatedly, about the story he's telling you, it's not silly to doubt it, but it IS arbitrary to say it should be accepted as having been correctly or fully relayed, just because it's wrapped up so nicely (or isn't "central" to the story he's telling).

Not only is GRRM poetic (I'd say lyrical), he's also a trickster. He repeatedly leads you down a particular path to stoke your expectations, and then deliver something more important that you've been missing while you've been "looking over there".

With that in mind, exploring the clues he may have scattered around the story is extremely satisfying. It doesn't confuse the timeline, because the timeline is presented to the reader as extremely confused already. It's an invitation to do precisely what this fine thread and many like it have been doing - question everything and look for answers.

Sounds like you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

If we followed your line of logic, absolutely nothing in the series could be taken as fact, which would make for a rather un-enjoyable non satisfying experience.

You circular reasoning of :it's not confusing because its presented as being confused, is rather contradictory,mind boggling and absurd.:( sorry

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I don't think this is likely as the long night will start very soon. Jon's assassination is what triggers the long night. Westeros will already be under ice and darkness before Dany can put an army together and start her conquest. There won't be much left to conquer, and just like slaver's bay instead of winning over a glorious empire she ends up with a broken continent suffering through an ice age. Her job is to rebuild, rebuild, and rebuild. That's the role of Mhysa, to nurture a new world, not as the stallion who mounts the world. Rhaego's death prevents any chances of a Stallion ever coming into being. In a way, Mirri Maz Duur's sacrifice saved a lot of people a lot of grief. Rhaego would have been raised by the Dothraki, his mentality would greatly differ from that of Daenerys. Killing Rhaego and turning Drogo into a mindless turnip prevented the rise of a Dothraki empire under Drogo's control. What we will get is a Dothraki army in service to the Dragons.

:agree: with the small exception of Jon's murder triggering the long night which i'm on the fence about, and wondering if it will be Dany's murder or possibly even Cersei's murder that triggers the night. Still a magnificent prediction and analysis.

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I haven't read through all 25 pages, so if someone has already beat me to the punch, I sincerely apologise.

One thing I notice is that Daynes sigil is a star falling, lavender and white (opal and amethyst). While the Tragaryan is black and red (a bloodstone).

So, the theories of AA being BSE reformed and the LH as a Dayne are at odds.

Edit: I also apologise because I know that your conversations have evolved since page 3, but the thoughts are stuck in ,y mind while I scan through the last 22 pages

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I haven't read through all 25 pages, so if someone has already beat me to the punch, I sincerely apologise.

One thing I notice is that Daynes sigil is a star falling, lavender and white (opal and amethyst). While the Tragaryan is black and red (a bloodstone).

So, the theories of AA being BSE reformed and the LH as a Dayne are at odds.

Edit: I also apologise because I know that your conversations have evolved since page 3, but the thoughts are stuck in ,y mind while I scan through the last 22 pages

It's hard to know exactly what to make of the eye color. The Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress were brother and sister, but the names would indicate different eye color. Was magic involved in changing eye color? Maybe that was as easy as taking a new house sigil for them. Point being, if AA and NN had a son, as the procreative aspect of the Lightbringer myth implies, that son would be both AA and NN reborn, and carry the potential to follow in either's footsteps. I tend to think Jon and Dany are the same, in some sense, with an ability to fulfill either side of that equation.

The LH / first Dayne could be a descendent of AA and NN.

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Actually.... Journey with me here for a second. I was rereading the prophecy of the stallion who mounts the world chapter, and I think there is something completely different going on there. Note the terror with which the one eyed seer looks at Dany - why should the seer be afraid of the Stallion whose khlaasars will cover the earth? The warriors whose araks will shine like razor grass? I'm not sure what razor grass is, but I know that Ghost grass shines with the souls of the damned, looks like milkglass, has long sharp stalks more than 6ft tall, and it prophesied to cover the earth. And what is a stallion or horse that can mount the whole world?

It's a horse who is not a horse - it's actually Yggdrasil, which can be translated as either "Odin's Horse" or "gallows." Yggdrasil is a world tree, meaning that it represents the cosmic axis, with its roots in the underworld and it's leafy canopy making up the starry sky. Odin also had an actual horse, an eight legged one named Slepnir, and both the horse and the tree enable some kind of spirit walking activity. The tree itself is a part of Odin - does this sound familiar yet?

The stallion who shall cover the world is the eight legged kind, I am thinking, the ones with milkglass weapons. Hooked up to the tree, a greenseer can indeed mount the entire world.

The Dothraki themselves believe the stars are a fiery Khalasar. Stars are flaming horses. Who is the flaming horse that mounts the world? The fallen star which created a firestorm, the second moon. Those flaming dragons (or horses) did indeed "mount" the whole world, filling the entire sky with fire. The moon meteor which hit Westeros was remembered as the Hammer of the Waters, which was supposedly called down by...

The people who are hung on trees and spirit walk. The Yggdrasil tree on which the weirwoods were modeled is somehow perceived as an eight legged horse, so these greenseers are indeed mounting a horse of sorts. If the greenseers had something to do with creating the Others, as they might well have done, then we see a further link between the children and the concept of Yggdrasil.

I don't know if the greenseers really did have anything to do with calling down the Hammer - I know it was a moon meteor, but we just don't know what the limits of cotf power are - but if they did, they called the stallion who mounted the world, and they did it by mounting their own stallion, the weirwood net which enables spirit walking.

The result of this hammer and firestorm, after the fires went out, was the Long Night - a winter where the warriors with shining crystal weapons that sound like ghost grass did indeed try to cover the earth.

I know this is all a bit confusing - this is what it looks like when I am exploring ideas instead of presenting ideas that I have fine tuned for weeks. I'm only just learning the second layer of stuff about Yggdrasil recently, so I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it. But clearly, it was a big influence for the weirwoods, so I think it's worth understanding. I also think that some of the visions the various seers see as prophecies may actually be glimpses of the past, or perhaps glimpses of the parts of the past which are set to replay themselves, making them a bit of both. This stallion who mounts the world has implications beyond Rhaego, I think. I think the seer was drawing the wrong conclusions, like Mel often does.

I'm curious if anyone has picked up anything strange about this scene, or if any of this makes any sense to anyone. :)

I need to go back and reread thid, but when I originally heard the Stalion Who Will Mount the World, i assumed it meant, you know , Biblically. Given the moon, comet, egg, sperm, heart, sword, penis, vagina, deep structure in the mythos, I tend to still think my first impresion was correct.
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  • 2 weeks later...

A large part of Durran’s theory rest on the hypothesis that Dany is tPtwP. I don’t think this is the case at all. Aemon gave us valuable info about the basics of this prophecy and that is one of the many reasons why we should not take his conclusion as correct. We do not get the prophecy and its solution in the same paragraph! George does not work that way. In addition, Aemon was wrong about the prophecies before, he was feverish and dying, he might have started seeing dreams that drove him unstable, and he did not have a clue about R+L=J and how Jon is literally a prince that was promised (to be kept safe). I also do not think there are any clues to suggest that tPtwP prophecy originates from the GEotD in regards to AE.

 

Another thing I see missing is that if we read between the lines carefully, we see that the Realm of the GEotD was already failing long before the Bloodstone Emperor. Reigns were growing shorter and more troublesome. People were giving themselves to sins. Wild men and baleful beasts were plaguing the Realm. One-sided histories are seldom true. Therefore, taking the Bloodstone Emperor as the scapegoat and blaming everything on him does not sound right to me. After all, the Bloodstone Emperor was eventually defeated and the history was written by the winners once again.

 

Another thing that is not considered in this thread is that the story of AA and Nissa Nissa has a subtle metaphor about childbirth and willing sacrifice as Schemendrick explored.

 

It is accurate to make the connection to Jon=BSE and Dany=AE. I might post it in a new thread in detail but I don’t think the dreams that these two see are genuine prophetic dreams. It was mentioned in many threads including this one that right from the first dream of Dany, Quaithe was present and we later learn that it was possible to send dreams and visions to a person using glass candles. So, most of those dragon dreams Dany saw were simply what Quaithe forged and showed to her.  

 

Similarly, we learn that Bloodraven is also able to send dreams from the chapter he met Bran. He forged and sent Bran’s three-eyed crow dreams. Jon has this single dream where we have all the clues to equate Jon to the BSE in ADwD. There are enough reasons to suspect that this was a dream forged and sent by Bloodraven.

 

Therefore, we should ask why these two puppet-masters are trying to mold these two characters into these two roles. Can we be sure that Quaithe or Bloodraven are infallible? I don’t think so. I don’t think we can put blind trust to Quaithe and Bloodraven’s conclusions. I think whatever they are planning to create between Jon and Dany, it will not work as they are planning to do.

 

I think there are many clues pointing that Dany will come North to face Jon in the end but she will end up kneeling to him and retiring from her crown/claim/title.

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I agree with Mithras about the candles and Quaithe and Bloodraven. I tend to want to trust Bloodraven instinctively but of course we can't assume we know his intentions or that things will work according to plan. The idea that Quaithe and / or BR may have the right idea but may not be able to get Bran, Jon, and Dany to do what they want the way they want. Maybe BR is himself having visions of the future, and acting on morrows not yet made, as Melisandre is, and is therefore at the mercy of the unknown as well, or perhaps at the mercy of his own interpretations. I tend to buy that Mel is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar - seemed far-fetched at first but the evidence is actually really strong. Although the evidence is more circumstantial, Quaithe as Shiera makes a lot of sense, when you think about BR and Shiera working through their respective pupils.

As for the PTWP, I haven't spent much time thinking about that one. What I do know is that both Jon and Daenerys are manifesting all the signs of being Azor Ahai reborn. Dany starts off playing the role of lunar princess, but after she is ritually immolated in Drogo's sun fire to birth dragons, just as the destroyed moon did, she then becomes the last dragon - a solar King. She puts on the white lion pelt to signify her solar kin status. She becomes a leader, playing the part of the Khal. She goes on to take two brides - a fiery one (Daario) and an icy one (Hizdahr frozen cock). Of course waking dragons from stone and being reborn amid salt and smoke are all checked off.

So as you can see, it is not as simple as a one to one "Jon is AA / BSE and Dany is Am Em." I think the potential for both may be in both, something like that. Jon is sacrificed at the end of ADWD, being murdered and usurped. He also represents the lost bloodline of the Am Em / purple eyed people. Danny's rebirth dragon waking came at the moment the comet first appeared - perhaps Jon will be reborn as the comet passes back by the earth... or perhaps when it comes back and hits the remaining moon, as I predict it will. We might see an ice dragon wake at this point, symbolically or literally. The Qarthine myth prophesies the other moon will one day crack and the dragons will return...

Jon is also referred to as a maid or a maiden a few times - always in jest, but I think the point of making these jokes is to put Jon in the role of moon maiden. George does this trick with Qarl the Maid as well in the Wayward Bride chapter, where Qarl acts the part of the moon.

Im not sure at all how the prophesied people will shake out. The idea that multiple people are showing signs of AA - more than just Dany and Jon - means this thing is more complex than "so and so is the REAL Azor Ahai!" Jon, Dany, Brienne, Davos, Arya, and Jaime are all doing AA things at times... Stannis and Beric also act out the role, doing things AA did. Of course these last two don't figure to be involved in the endgame, so they are probably just manifesting AA stuff to give us readers clues - but it's hard to say just how George is thinking about this. Is the spirit of AA trying to manifest, trying to be reborn, and so it manifests in bits and pieces here and there? Will all these people each have a different part of AA's role to play, each with a different manifestation of Lightbringer? Brienne has the sword, Dany the dragons, Jon the Wall and the NE and maybe himself, Davos has the moral compass, Sam the knowledge, Jaime the chutzpah which will be needed somewhere? perhaps it's something like that.
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Jon is also referred to as a maid or a maiden a few times - always in jest, but I think the point of making these jokes is to put Jon in the role of moon maiden. George does this trick with Qarl the Maid as well in the Wayward Bride chapter, where Qarl acts the part of the moon.

 

I think perhaps the most important reference to this is the reversed Bael the Bard story playing out between Jon and Ygritte. Although Ygritte insists that Jon stole her, it is quite easy to also say that it was in fact Ygritte who "plucked" Jon rather than the other way round. Jon is a "blue flower" from Winterfell, and Ygritte is a wildling. Although they don't go to the crypts to hide, they go to another underground place, the cave, where they make love. There Ygritte jokingly says that Jon was a "maid" (i.e. a virgin) before their first night together. While there is no child born of their union, the childbirth part of the original story is played out in a different way. In the original story, the child of Bael and the Stark "rose" became the next Stark lord, so we can say that Bael "saved the Starks from extinction", so to speak, he ensured the continuation of the family tree. Ygritte's love practically saves Jon's life among the wildlings, so Ygritte also helps to keep the Stark family alive - Jon will soon be regarded as "the last living son of Eddard Stark" by some. Technically it is not true, but the parallel works on a symbolic level.

 

So, yes, Martin shows us that the roles may be reversed as the ancient stories are repeated with new protagonists.

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[quote name="Durran Durrandon" post="6813783" timestamp="1426350203"]

 
 

 
 

We are told, again in the world book that it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. . . How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warriorknown variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaserarose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world. (TWOIAF 712-713)  What I think is becoming clear  is that the Bloodstone Emperor and Azor Ahai  are the same person.

Great thread enjoyed it immensely. And it gave me a great idea. What if in fact the Bloodstone Emperor isn't one and the same as AA but in fact the Great Other? Please don't break my heart and tell me someone else thought of this because I got so excited at this prospect that I couldn't even read the other comments. But you or Lucifer Lightbringer(I dont recall which)point out that AA,Nissa Nissa, Bloodstone & Amythest stories run parallel to each other. Also if killing Amethyst ushered in the Long Night well who better then the Great Other to bring that in? Look at the things he did: cannibalism, dark arts, torture, enslavement of his people and of course the clincher, necromancy. That doesn't sound like a hero to me. I'd love to hear your ideas.

Scratch that the more I read & research the more I see, next time I'll tell myself to calm down and read some comments lol. Thought I was into something big for minute :)
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The theory isn't untenable, but I usually think of the Great Other abd Rhlor for that matter as more abstract forced that have been misunderstood abd over personified by the Red Priests. In much the same way, the Damphairs have forced a false duality between the Drowned God and the Storm God. I thick we see in the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night the same duality understood by the ancients as existing in harmony rather than conflict.
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  • 4 weeks later...

The theory isn't untenable, but I usually think of the Great Other abd Rhlor for that matter as more abstract forced that have been misunderstood abd over personified by the Red Priests. In much the same way, the Damphairs have forced a false duality between the Drowned God and the Storm God. I thick we see in the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night the same duality understood by the ancients as existing in harmony rather than conflict.


Thumbs up. The harmony point is crucial - it's what was broken and remains broken about the world, embodied in the unpredictable seasons, which are deadly for civilisation. So civilisation develops myths that reflect an unharmonious world.

The dualities developed to embody the positive and negative as perceived by specific cultures. The Ironborn are seafaring, the sea is their positive and storms their negative. The red priests idolise light, and to them darkness becomes not a natural part of the cycle, but an embodiment of negative forces.

In both examples, the developing mythologies slotted into pre-existing shared events (the destruction of the second moon, the meteor impacts, and the Long Night). The way GRRM is presenting these is almost like variations on a theme, so to understand the song, you compare them against each other.
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Thumbs up. The harmony point is crucial - it's what was broken and remains broken about the world, embodied in the unpredictable seasons, which are deadly for civilisation. So civilisation develops myths that reflect an unharmonious world.

The dualities developed to embody the positive and negative as perceived by specific cultures. The Ironborn are seafaring, the sea is their positive and storms their negative. The red priests idolise light, and to them darkness becomes not a natural part of the cycle, but an embodiment of negative forces.

In both examples, the developing mythologies slotted into pre-existing shared events (the destruction of the second moon, the meteor impacts, and the Long Night). The way GRRM is presenting these is almost like variations on a theme, so to understand the song, you compare them against each other.

 

:agree: You're singing my favorite song LPC!! :)

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