Nozlym Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Why would a CTOF stay glamoured as a woman in the mountains of the moon hiding with a dragon? What would the motivation be? that is a good question i might be going over board but i think that possibly the Green Men might have had something to do with Nettles turning into Leaf possibly. like u take an oath and they give u the abilities of CotF and u slowly become one or something like that. u know how Weirwoods have faces because greenseers chose to spend their afterlife in the tree what if the Green Men can allow the transfer of a greenseer spirit into a willing host of someone, and they slowly turn into a CotF if anyone has read the inheritance series, dragons have the choice once they die to leave their soul in this kind of heart gem thing to help and guide someone should they have it its kinda where i got the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Why would a CTOF stay glamoured as a woman in the mountains of the moon hiding with a dragon? What would the motivation be? Even if we take Nettles as a random human, we still do not know what her motivation to go there and start a fire cult is. And we do not know that if Leaf was Nettles, she still used glamor at the Mountains of the Moon. All we know that there was a fire-witch who controlled a dragon. Perhaps she looked like her true self, which made it easier to take her as a witch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 The idea that the Ghost may be a daughter of Bloodraven by a Child is actually a rather interesting notion considering the eye color of the woman. And Bloodraven was already conveniently at the Wall when Duncan chanced upon her. Not only the eye color but they both have pale white skin due to albinism. Another similarity is that they have long white hair that sweeps the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 And we do not know that if Leaf was Nettles, Mithras u cant go against ur own topic of this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Even if we take Nettles as a random human, we still do not know what her motivation to go there and start a fire cult is. And we do not know that if Leaf was Nettles, she still used glamor at the Mountains of the Moon. All we know that there was a fire-witch who controlled a dragon. Perhaps she looked like her true self, which made it easier to take her as a witch. As a person involved heavily involved in the civil war of the ruling family, the idea fleeing to the one place in Westeros south of the wall where it is still truly wild and the rule of the kingdom is truly absent makes practical sense. I just can't see the motive for leaf to stay in the mountains with a dragon for so long. I also think this depends on the ability of an incredibly powerful glamour, down to height changing and working sex organs for a completely different species. If the COTF have glamour that powerful, why wouldn't they appear that way to bran and co? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 It seems that the Children and humans can interbreed anyway or due to magic. It is implied that the crannogmen and other Northmen - the Starks as well - have Children blood. I also don't think Nettles actively founded anything. She and Sheepstealer were just 'there' up in the mountains, and the clansmen had to deal with it. They included her into their lives by worshiping her and including (dragon-)fire in their rituals. I doubt that Nettles actively encouraged or demanded this kind of behavior. In fact, I think she just reaped off the benefits - getting food for free. Prior to the TWoIaF the theory made some sense as we did not know where Nettles went after the Dance, but going to the Mountains of the Moon rather than flying straight home (i.e. beyond the Wall) would be very strange indeed. It makes more sense to assume that Nettles never was beyond the Wall and thus settled for a wilderness closer to home she had previously heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Perhaps Nettles went to the Mountains of the Moon to wait for Daemon. He was no doubt heavily injured during the fight with Aemond, and would have needed time to heal. Meanwhile, Nettles needed to get Sheepstealer to an area where the dragon could be fed and yet not be noticed. The Isle of Faces would not be suitable for that - too many people live on its shores. I would also imagine the Isle is considered sacred ground, where Sheepstealer's hunting would be frowned upon. on the possibility that TGoHH is the daughter of BR and Leaf - It is certainly possible. We are still not sure humans and CotF can interbreed - there's been no confirmation - but I wouldn't bet against it. My main argument against BR+Leaf=GoHH is that I don't think BR would betray his true love Shiera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Targaryen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I like the Idea, but I don't think that it had to do with skinchanging the dragon, as much as understanding how to get a wild animal to trust you, which I feel is probably not a foreign concept to the children, being as in touch with nature as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Ibbison, if Leaf had something with Bloodraven they may have had this thing prior to the beginning of his affair with Shiera (Children grew to a very old age and half-Children could also have an extended lifespan) or after the end of it. If Mel is Shiera's daughter by Bloodraven they must have ended up as slaves in the East eventually. Possibly during/before/after the end of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. And if Daemon survived my guess is that he ended up on the Isle of Faces and stayed there. I don't really buy the option that he wanted to survive and only sort of faked his death spectacularly. My guess is he honestly wanted to die and thus risked everything - which enabled him to pull this thing off. If he wanted to join Nettles later to live out his life at her side there was no real reason face Aemond at all. Just fly away with her. To the Mountains of the Moon, beyond the Wall, or to Essos or Sothoryos. Those guys had dragons. They could have gone wherever the hell they wanted to go. Trogdor, well, my attempt to what Nettles did 'special' is that she had the brains to try to accustom the wild dragon to human presence. Seasmoke, Vermithor, Silverwing had been ridden before. They only needed to be claim the way a dragon is claimed. Sheepstealer needed to be prepared for that - which is what Nettles did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 We are still not sure humans and CotF can interbreed - there's been no confirmation - but I wouldn't bet against it. I've made three different threads about interbreeding. Surely, there is hell of a material to dig :) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121138-labyrinths-minotaur-interbreeding/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125974-evidences-for-hybrids-from-the-main-series/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123133-the-unnatural-origins-of-dragons/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 It's certainly interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes, you heard it right. Nettles was Leaf. The timeline fits. Leaf spent the last two hundred years among the humans. Leaf was wearing a glamor during the Dance. Nettles/Leaf was also instrumental in having Daemon rescued and accepted to the Green Men after the duel with Aemond. Nettles looked after Bloodraven since he was born, taught him of his gift. They even made a child together and that child is the Ghost of High Heart. Normally female CotF die while giving birth to human sized babies but the GoHH is very tiny. So, she survived the delivery. She knows the whereabouts of Sheepstealer. So you don't believe Nettles had Targaryen blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 So you don't believe Nettles had Targaryen blood? I never believed that was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 So you don't believe Nettles had Targaryen blood? Nettles as a plot point was there to sow doubt that you had to be a targ to tame a dragon, leaving open the possibility that someone like Tyrion would get to ride one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Ibbison, if Leaf had something with Bloodraven they may have had this thing prior to the beginning of his affair with Shiera (Children grew to a very old age and half-Children could also have an extended lifespan) or after the end of it. If Mel is Shiera's daughter by Bloodraven they must have ended up as slaves in the East eventually. Possibly during/before/after the end of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. And if Daemon survived my guess is that he ended up on the Isle of Faces and stayed there. I don't really buy the option that he wanted to survive and only sort of faked his death spectacularly. My guess is he honestly wanted to die and thus risked everything - which enabled him to pull this thing off. If he wanted to join Nettles later to live out his life at her side there was no real reason face Aemond at all. Just fly away with her. To the Mountains of the Moon, beyond the Wall, or to Essos or Sothoryos. Those guys had dragons. They could have gone wherever the hell they wanted to go. I fully agree that Daemon did not expect to survive his combat with Aemond. But once he did, I doubt he stayed on the Isle of Faces. It's not in character for him. He's not the sedentary type - he's the kind that gets around and gets things done. One of the problems with the BR+L=GoHH idea is that it doesn't have much significance. It would be a minor trivia point that would have no real impact on the story. On the other hand, if Nettles=Leaf and TGoHH is indeed CotF, we have a huge plot point revealed. The CotF are actively involved with House Targaryen. And that point makes a lot of sense. More importantly (and we touched on this a bit in Mithras' Hybrids thread he posted a link to above) no one has yet given a convincing explanation of why Jenny would claim her friend was CotF if she wasn't. No one knew her better than Jenny. Given Yandel's lack of reliability, his outright dismissal of the CotF claim could be seen as a point in favor of the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Lord Bloodraven was a soab just like Daemon. But three eyed crow is different. Perhaps Daemon the green man is very different than the Daemon we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I think if Daemon survived and subsequently left the Isle of Face to rejoin Nettles in the Mountains of the Moon we would read of a couple of fire mages up in the mountains and their dragon rather than a solitary fire witch. Daemon was changed when he essentially threw his life away and abandoned Nettles, Rhaenyra, Aegon the Younger, his daughters, and the Iron Throne he supposedly coveted since he was a young man. Thus we cannot really say it would not have been in his character to stay on the island. Especially if the Green Men are some sort of super-wizards who can see the future huge battle ahead, and tell him that he has to play a role in that way (if we assume that they are effectively immortal and can prolong the life of others as well). There are many hints that the Children and humans can produce viable offspring. We have the fact that originally only the Children had skinchangers and greenseers, and the fact that the skinchanging magic seems to be running in the blood. This could go back to certain bloodlines who are descended from a match between a Child and a human. The Starks may have gotten their blood of this time from the women they took from the king on Sea Dragon Point. Or Brandon the Builder himself may have Children ancestors from the time around the Pact. After all, he supposedly lived around the time/shortly after the Long Night when the First Men and the Children were already allied for centuries or millennia. The diminutive size of the crannogmen is another strong sign. It would not surprise me if the populating of the Children who retreated into the Neck had been completely absorbed by the crannogmen explaining their overall affinity to ancient magics. Perhaps some Children still survive there - we don't really know how old they can become, or do we? The fact that Howland Reed reached the Isle of Faces and actually spoke, lived, and learned from the Green Men is a strong sign that he knew stuff others do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I don't think this is necessarily the case. We have the POV of the only known dragonrider so far in the series,and while we know that she has certainly had dreams including dragons, I don't know that I recall any instances in which she dreams she IS the dragon she has ridden. Conversely, I can say that the skin changers we have seen have all had dreams as the animals they are connected to.It is not unheard of that I might not remember every aspect, so if anyone can provide an excerpt where Dany (or any other dragonrider for that matter) dreams that she herself is Drogon (or whichever dragon the rider rode), I will concede to this point and accept skinchanging as being related to dragon riding. We don't have to assume the bond is similar for both. No Targ seems to enter the mind of the dragon but they are bonded other ways, probably by blood. That isn't to say a Skinchanger couldn't enter the mind of a dragon. We have 3 burgeoning Stark skinchangers, we have 3 dragons, but we have no idea why the skinchanging will be important. Stands to reason that 3 skinchangers for 3 dragons right? Jon is Rhaegar's, Bran's tutor is half Targ and has told him he will fly, Arya has that relationship with the dragon skulls and the Faceless Men are likely looking for ways to kill them. Or maybe there will only be 2 controlled dragons and Arya is a dragonslayer? Rhaegal is Green and Bronze for a reason I guess. A northerner is getting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Yes, you heard it right. Nettles was Leaf. The timeline fits. Leaf spent the last two hundred years among the humans. Leaf was wearing a glamor during the Dance. Nettles/Leaf was also instrumental in having Daemon rescued and accepted to the Green Men after the duel with Aemond. Nettles looked after Bloodraven since he was born, taught him of his gift. They even made a child together and that child is the Ghost of High Heart. Normally female CotF die while giving birth to human sized babies but the GoHH is very tiny. So, she survived the delivery. She knows the whereabouts of Sheepstealer. Yeah buddy! I like it. And it would quash the theories of incest between Nettles & Daemon. There's obvious changes in Daemon once he meets Nettles but I don't think it was finding a long-lost child. I think it was opposites attracting. Jon & Ygritte (NW & Wildling), Rhaegar & Lyanna (Fire & Ice), Brienne & Jaime (True Knight & "Bad Knight"). Daemon always came off as arrogant, self-centered and superficial. His relationship with Nettles could have changed him to his core. We see a similar transformation in Jon when he meets Ygritte and in Jaime when he spends time with Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I was re-reading a Jon chapter last night and saw something interesting. When he fled from the Thenns and took an arrow Maester Aemon had to repair his injured leg. Maester Aemon shuffled to the bedside, one hand on Grenn's shoulder. "Jon, be gentle with yourself. It is good that you have woken, but you must give yourself time to heal. We drowned the wound with boiling wine, and closed you up with a poultice of nettle, mustard seed and moldy bread, but unless you rest..."That led to a kindle search and found it’s only mentioned 2 other times. The first is by Ned when he’s in the Black Cells of KL. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. The second is by a WF man sent with Cat on her way to parlay with Renly. "Found some nettle and brewed a tea," Shadd announced. "Will m'lady take a cup?"They're not indigenous to my area so I had never heard of them before. Googled it and learned that there's a few types. The most common are Stinging Nettles and Dead White Nettles. Both are used medicinally and can be brewed into tea or cooked and consumed. It would be fitting for a CotF to choice a plant name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.