Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Leaf said that she was born in the time of dragon. We do not know what she means by that but perhaps she meant Balerion. He was the last dragon surviving the Doom and that might be an important thing. I guess the CotF takes much longer time to fully reach adulthood. So, if Leaf was born before Balerion died (in 94 AC) this makes her big enough to impersonate a human. I think this simply means that she was born after Aegon's Conquest. Leaf is less than 300 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Not sure if Daemon is a child molester. This was brought ages ago when TPatQ first came out but I don't see any reason to buy into that. Why should leave or any Child of the Forest take he dragon to the Mountains of the Moon and live there for a time? How or why did Nettles come to Dragonstone? The Children don't seem to be seafarers or eager to cross the sea. Finally, a glamor should not make Nettles physically bigger. Yet a Child of the Forest does not have the height of normal-sized 14-year-old girl. No, I'm still believing Nettles may have been Daemon's bastard daughter, and they either began an affair because they found father-daughter incest hot or they did not and had merely some father-daughter bonding time (with Daemon never knowing that he had this daughter before they met at KL). Nettles/Leaf came to Dragonstone using a boat and she came because she thought that she could get a dragon, which she did. Wrong. Reread Jon vs. "Rattleshirt" duel. Besides, Nettles was not said to be an exceptionally tall woman. On the contrary she was said exactly to be a "small brown girl" and skinny. Leaf's skin is nut brown. Arya is skinny too and Bran thought of Arya when he first saw Leaf. I don't think there is much clue to take Nettles as Daemon's bastard daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 are we assuming that BR met Leaf north of the wall? cus he knew how to glamour way before that if anyone taught BR how to glamour, my guess would be Shiera I assume that BR met Leaf while he was a kid. So, he must have learned skinchanging and glamors from her as a young padawan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Ibbison, can't we attribute Mel 'hijacking' Ghost to one of her powders? I never saw that as genuine magic feature from Mel rather as a cheap trick making use of the fact that Ghost is, after all, an animal. We don't know enough about Nettles to determine if anything she did could have been part of Children agenda. And she did choose a faction in the Dance - that's not very mature. If she was recruiting Daemon for something - like the Green Men - one should expect that she had joined him there. If the Green Men are still around there should also be still Children of the Forest on the island, I assume. Overall, the idea is not all that bad, but I'd not bet anything on it especially since there are no hints I'm aware of that blood sacrifice can be used to control animals. That is not proof that it can't, of course, but I'd expect a subtle clue if it was. The First Men sacrifices of (not so) ancient times did not seem to used to control anything. Rather than to feed and strengthening the power of the greenseers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 ur making this sound like it was all planned from the get go nettles kept sheepstealer alive cus they were being hunted GoHH just spoke about what she saw, like she does for everything. not conducting some master plan just seems like ur trying to force conclusions The CotF are nudging things in the right direction. They know the Others are going to return, and they have seen in general when. They know House Targaryen will be needed to repel the Others, and are acting accordingly. are we assuming that BR met Leaf north of the wall? cus he knew how to glamour way before that if anyone taught BR how to glamour, my guess would be Shiera No, not north of the Wall. Leaf wandered the world for 200 years. She would have found BR in the riverlands, before he went to court and started displaying his abilities. Circa 190 AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Ibbison from Ibben has been saying this for a while. I still don't really buy it but it is interesting. Seven hells! This one is mine! I threw this out somewhere around page 25 of the tPatQ thread, and have been taking s**t about it ever since. Glad to have made a convert, but I'm taking original credit. For the record, my claim was based on the observed difference between how Nettles bound a dragon vs everyone else. I think she was using blood magic to temporarily hijack Sheepstealer (much the same way Mel was able to temporarily interfere with Jon's bond to Ghost). That's why she had to feed Sheepstealer a sheep before each flight - it wasn't a true bond, just a temp one. I don't buy that tGoHH is her child - Jenny claimed tGoHH was CotF, and I have no reason to doubt her. But I'm fully on board with Leaf training BR, and being the one to feed him weirwood paste. Hey, Ibbison. The credit is yours. I don't remember the TPatQ thread. I got mine much later than the release and didnot follow the discussion much. The idea of this thread came from another thread of mine which is about the hybrids references in the main series. Apparently, Ran has a theory that the GoHH might be a child of Bloodraven from a CotF. I think this theory makes sense and Leaf might be the mother. That also means that she is probably the mentor of BR, teaching him how to use his gift and how to do magic. About Leaf-Nettles connection, I agree that there are several clues (like Nettles was a very young and small girl with brown skin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I assume that BR met Leaf while he was a kid. So, he must have learned skinchanging and glamors from her as a young padawan. so its like Qui Gon Jinn meeting Anakin seeing his potential and tutoring him and become stronger then anyone could forsee lol this is some crazy shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Huh, I've always thought the GoHH was a descendant of Aemond and Alys Rivers' kid since she displayed similar powers Alice Rivers was looking into fires like Mel. But GoHH does not do that. She just dreams. We know that at High Heart where GoHH lives, the fire visions do not work anyway. That is what GoHH told Thoros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 so its like Qui Gon Jinn meeting Anakin seeing his potential and tutoring him and become stronger then anyone could forsee lol this is some crazy shit Just like BR is teaching Bran now but Bran is far more powerful than BR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 There is doubt that you can skinchange a dragon. If this would work, and if there were once dragons in Westeros, why did the Children not use dragons to wipe out the First Men? A skinchanger binding with a dragon should be virtually invincible. Do you know when did those dragons exist in Westeros? Perhaps they were present long before the First Men arrived and vanished before the First Men came. So, the legends of the First Men dragonslayers might be distorted tales adopted from the CotF by the First Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 Or is it possible that the GoHH is Nettles and Leaf is the daughter? GoHH is around three feet tall and have red eyes, pale white skin. She is practically a little, grotesque version of BR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Ibbison, can't we attribute Mel 'hijacking' Ghost to one of her powders? I never saw that as genuine magic feature from Mel rather as a cheap trick making use of the fact that Ghost is, after all, an animal. We don't know enough about Nettles to determine if anything she did could have been part of Children agenda. And she did choose a faction in the Dance - that's not very mature. If she was recruiting Daemon for something - like the Green Men - one should expect that she had joined him there. If the Green Men are still around there should also be still Children of the Forest on the island, I assume. Overall, the idea is not all that bad, but I'd not bet anything on it especially since there are no hints I'm aware of that blood sacrifice can be used to control animals. That is not proof that it can't, of course, but I'd expect a subtle clue if it was. The First Men sacrifices of (not so) ancient times did not seem to used to control anything. Rather than to feed and strengthening the power of the greenseers. I didn't see Mel use a powder when she hijacked Ghost. Thus I suspect she used some other power. It is heavily hinted that the Valyrians used some sort of blood magic when they originally bonded with dragons. (Blood of the Dragon, etc...) That's why I think blood magic could be used for a temporary bond. It would be recreating the original event, in a less potent way. I fully admit it is a bit on the crackpot side, but much less than most. I find it plausible. Nettle's actions, particularly her continual habit of feeding/sacrificing an animal before each flight just sets off all kinds of flashing lights in my head. She is one of a kind, and brings a song to mind - One of these things is not like the other One of these things does not belong. I also think it is quite easy to detect systemic obfuscation and deception in all topics concerning dragon hatching and bonding in all our sources, so I look for hints like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 So BR is Vader teaching bran now how to use the "weirwood". The great other (emperor) will face off against bran but bran isn't ready so BR sacrifices himself to kill the great other and reveals that he is brans father. What a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Hey, Ibbison. The credit is yours. I don't remember the TPatQ thread. I got mine much later than the release and didnot follow the discussion much. Great minds think alike. Not only that, you and I happened on the same idea. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Mithras I didn't mean to accuse you of plagiarism. I know you wouldn't do that. I just wanted to assert a priority claim. And I have been forced to defend this on a couple of threads, with little or no support from anyone else. RumHum and Lord Varys aren't sold but they are keeping their minds open. Some others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 so its like Qui Gon Jinn meeting Anakin seeing his potential and tutoring him and become stronger then anyone could forsee lol this is some crazy shit There's nothing crazy about a mentor - student relationship. Sometimes the student eventually surpasses the mentor (not that BR surpassed Leaf). It's happening right now many times in every university in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The idea that the Ghost may be a daughter of Bloodraven by a Child is actually a rather interesting notion considering the eye color of the woman. And Bloodraven was already conveniently at the Wall when Duncan chanced upon her. But if the Children actively tried to hook up with or influence the Targaryens they were either very sneaky long-term planners or not very successful. For all we know, Duncan-Jenny led nowhere (they don't seem to have had children) and the Ghost was also unable to prevent Summerhall or lead it to a successful conclusion. If Leaf or other Children were out there during the Dance they were also not able to prevent the death of the dragons - which would have been important in regards to preparing everyone for the Others. I'm inclined to believe that Nettles would have discouraged Daemon from sacrificing Caraxes to kill Vhagar if she was a Child of the Forest. Hm. If we go with Mel being Bloodraven's daughter by Shiera then she may actually have skinchanging abilities. The question is - does she know that and can she actively use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamSongs Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Ibbison and Mithras...I like it :) It explains Nettles presence to a 'T'. My question is what did Nettles do with Sheepstealer? Skaagos maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 She went to the Mountains of the Moon, co-founded the Burned Men, and the dragon died there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Why would a CTOF stay glamoured as a woman in the mountains of the moon hiding with a dragon? What would the motivation be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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