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Heresy 159


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Thanks! Long time lurker of course. I wouldn't completely rule out a trip to Starfall, seems like a place that has more answers than questions at this point and the Daynes are too interesting to not play a larger part. Eldric Shadowchaser sounds like it would be an apt name for one of their ancestors in fact :dunno:


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I like this idea, care to elaborate?

Well, others have more or less beaten me to it since that post... but one other pointer I'll give, in the interest of metaphorical interpretations (hat-tip, Eira) is that it might be worth rereading Jon's first POV chapter at the Wall, way back in AGOT, with its many descriptions of the men of the Night's Watch being "cold" and "hard." It's not the only place the metaphor shows up, but it may be the most emphatic. And Donal Noye makes it practically explicit: "Cold and hard and mean, thats the Wall, and the men who walk it."

This seems a very clear statement:

The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say.

Meaning:

The monsters can pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay false.

If it were a logic statement, then this reading could be more or less accurate. In other words, both A and B must be true, to guarantee C. If either A or B fail, then C is not the case.

It's not that sort of logic puzzle, of course - it's a story... but I wonder if Martin has laid enough groundwork for us to guess that A and B are really the same thing, in the end? In other words, that the Wall was never intended to be a physical barrier in the first place... but was instead a magical barrier dependent upon the NW's commitment to its true purpose.

If that were the case... then the big, huge, 700 ft speed bump built up over the centuries might be purely the result of the NW failing to understand (or remember) its original nature and mission. We've discussed that a lot here in Heresy, specifically highlighting the point that the physical barrier would be intended to impede humans (ie, wildlings) - and not the monsters (Others, wights, etc). The idea being that the magic wards would be sufficient against the latter.

What I'm suggesting here that might be new is that the word "Wall" could theoretically precede the existence of that physical barrier... and might originally have referred to the magic wards themselves, the maintenance and preservation of which would have been the purpose and mission of the Night's Watch.

.

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Well, others have more or less beaten me to it since that post... but one other pointer I'll give, in the interest of metaphorical interpretations (hat-tip, Eira) is that it might be worth rereading Jon's first POV chapter at the Wall, way back in AGOT, with it's many descriptions of the men of the Night's Watch being "cold" and "hard." It's not the only place the metaphor shows up, but it may be the most emphatic. And Donal Noye makes it practically explicit: "Cold and hard and mean, thats the Wall, and the men who walk it."

If it were a logic statement, then this reading could be more or less accurate. In other words, both A and B must be true, to guarantee C. If either A or B fail, then C is not the case.

It's not that sort of logic puzzle, of course - it's a story... but I wonder if Martin has laid enough groundwork for us to guess that A and B are really the same thing, in the end? In other words, that the Wall was never intended to be a physical barrier in the first place... but was instead a magical barrier dependent upon the NW's commitment to it's true purpose.

If that were the case... then the big, huge, 700 ft speed bump built up over the centuries might be purely the result of the NW failing to understand (or remember) its original nature and mission. We've discussed that a lot here in Heresy, specifically highlighting the point that the physical barrier would be intended to impede humans (ie, wildlings) - and not the monsters (Others, wights, etc). The idea being that the magic wards would be sufficient against the latter.

What I'm suggesting here that might be new is that the word "Wall" might theoretically precede the existence of that physical barrier... and might originally have referred to the magic wards themselves, the maintenance and preservation of which would have been the purpose and mission of the Night's Watch.

Perhaps. It's interesting food for thought.

In regards to interpreting Old Nan's statement using logic though, I think Othor and Jafer are clear enough illustration that if/when black brothers act the fool, and forget their purpose, they might well end up with cold dead hands about the throat.

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What I'm suggesting here that might be new is that the word "Wall" could theoretically precede the existence of that physical barrier... and might originally have referred to the magic wards themselves, the maintenance and preservation of which would have been the purpose and mission of the Night's Watch.

.

What if the snow just accumulates naturally? The walls at the five forts is said to be a thousand feet high, and is just fused black stone.

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Ah, it gets better:

There's some uncertainty as to whether this will be episode 5:08 or 5:10 (the last episode) with another on-set rumour not only placing this as the point where Jon gets the knife in the back, but suggesting that the closing scene of the series will be Jon carried off by the same walker on the dead horse that collected Craster's son!

This be a jest right?????

Well, others have more or less beaten me to it since that post... but one other pointer I'll give, in the interest of metaphorical interpretations (hat-tip, Eira) is that it might be worth rereading Jon's first POV chapter at the Wall, way back in AGOT, with its many descriptions of the men of the Night's Watch being "cold" and "hard." It's not the only place the metaphor shows up, but it may be the most emphatic. And Donal Noye makes it practically explicit: "Cold and hard and mean, thats the Wall, and the men who walk it."

If it were a logic statement, then this reading could be more or less accurate. In other words, both A and B must be true, to guarantee C. If either A or B fail, then C is not the case.

It's not that sort of logic puzzle, of course - it's a story... but I wonder if Martin has laid enough groundwork for us to guess that A and B are really the same thing, in the end? In other words, that the Wall was never intended to be a physical barrier in the first place... but was instead a magical barrier dependent upon the NW's commitment to its true purpose.

If that were the case... then the big, huge, 700 ft speed bump built up over the centuries might be purely the result of the NW failing to understand (or remember) its original nature and mission. We've discussed that a lot here in Heresy, specifically highlighting the point that the physical barrier would be intended to impede humans (ie, wildlings) - and not the monsters (Others, wights, etc). The idea being that the magic wards would be sufficient against the latter.

What I'm suggesting here that might be new is that the word "Wall" could theoretically precede the existence of that physical barrier... and might originally have referred to the magic wards themselves, the maintenance and preservation of which would have been the purpose and mission of the Night's Watch.

.

The Wall is the Watch.... hmmmmm

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the word "Wall" could theoretically precede the existence of that physical barrier... and might originally have referred to the magic wards themselves, the maintenance and preservation of which would have been the purpose and mission of the Night's Watch.

If this were the case, I'd think GRRM would not have made that remark about the Wall needing hundreds of years to be completed and thousands to reach its present height.

Also, if the ward needs ongoing maintenance, I'm not clear how it's gotten any for the thousands of years in which the Watch seems to have been oblivious to the ward's existence.

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If this were the case, I'd think GRRM would not have made that remark about the Wall needing hundreds of years to be completed and thousands to reach its present height.

Also, if the ward needs ongoing maintenance, I'm not clear how it's gotten any for the thousands of years in which the Watch seems to have been oblivious to the ward's existence.

I don't know if maintenance is is a good description of what is going on with them. I would flip the question and ask What are the Wards "tied/tethered" to?"

Is it solidarity of those who choose to Watch?

Is it blood a particular blood?

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Huh. Did not know he was friends with the Balrog :)

Ah, it gets better:

There's some uncertainty as to whether this will be episode 5:08 or 5:10 (the last episode) with another on-set rumour not only placing this as the point where Jon gets the knife in the back, but suggesting that the closing scene of the series will be Jon carried off by the same walker on the dead horse that collected Craster's son!

Umm. . . not sure how I feel about that. And what, pray tell, will Ghost be doing? Just going along with the mission I suppose.

Well, others have more or less beaten me to it since that post... but one other pointer I'll give, in the interest of metaphorical interpretations (hat-tip, Eira) is that it might be worth rereading Jon's first POV chapter at the Wall, way back in AGOT, with its many descriptions of the men of the Night's Watch being "cold" and "hard." It's not the only place the metaphor shows up, but it may be the most emphatic. And Donal Noye makes it practically explicit: "Cold and hard and mean, thats the Wall, and the men who walk it."

If it were a logic statement, then this reading could be more or less accurate. In other words, both A and B must be true, to guarantee C. If either A or B fail, then C is not the case.

It's not that sort of logic puzzle, of course - it's a story... but I wonder if Martin has laid enough groundwork for us to guess that A and B are really the same thing, in the end? In other words, that the Wall was never intended to be a physical barrier in the first place... but was instead a magical barrier dependent upon the NW's commitment to its true purpose.

If that were the case... then the big, huge, 700 ft speed bump built up over the centuries might be purely the result of the NW failing to understand (or remember) its original nature and mission. We've discussed that a lot here in Heresy, specifically highlighting the point that the physical barrier would be intended to impede humans (ie, wildlings) - and not the monsters (Others, wights, etc). The idea being that the magic wards would be sufficient against the latter.

What I'm suggesting here that might be new is that the word "Wall" could theoretically precede the existence of that physical barrier... and might originally have referred to the magic wards themselves, the maintenance and preservation of which would have been the purpose and mission of the Night's Watch.

.

In which case, what on earth happened during that little incident with the Night's King???

This be a jest right?????

The Wall is the Watch.... hmmmmm

Unless there's just enough left over to keep the Wards going. . . The Wall is said to be rather alive.

If this were the case, I'd think GRRM would not have made that remark about the Wall needing hundreds of years to be completed and thousands to reach its present height.

Also, if the ward needs ongoing maintenance, I'm not clear how it's gotten any for the thousands of years in which the Watch seems to have been oblivious to the ward's existence.

Oh, I'd agree that there's been some pretty serious negligence in the maintenance department. Wolfmaid, maybe this is why it's built on what Mel calls a 'hinge,' as if somehow there is a magical presence there that's sustained.

Otherwise there'd have to be regular activity on someone's part. . . blood sacrifices, maybe. And those seem to be going for a different project!

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Has anybody ever suggested that maybe the Night's Watch is actually a military force for the Others, not against them?




Night gathers, and now my watch begins




If you are the defenders and watchmen against the Others, why is your watch only beginning as they arrive (night gathers = Long Night)? You are supposedly a force of watchmen. Watchmen are only useful if they know about threats before hand. Your watch should be beginning before night gathers. If on the other hand, you are a force for the Others, you'd only be needed once night gathered and they were ready for you. Hence your watch beginning then, and not before.




It shall not end until my death.




Not only that, but who do the Others seemingly use for their armies? Dead people. We have an entire order of men who stay at this wall until they die. They are not allowed to leave. It would be awfully convenient that there is a standing army of men left at this location who stay there until death, if your armies are composed of dead men. Why gather all these men, who only 300 years ago numbered 10,000, and force them to stay in this one location when the enemy can raise the dead? You're practically handing them an army by concentrating this many men in this location instead of spreading them out across the country... which only makes sense if the army is for the dead, and not the living.



Furthermore, their watch is stated to only last while they are alive. This goes hand in hand with the above saying that they are not needed until the Others arrive. They watch till then. Their true purpose comes with their death, and there is nothing in these oaths saying that they are supposed to fight while they are alive. Just that they watch until they die. Which is odd for a force of "defenders".




I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.




We have yet to see any female Others (other than the Night's King tale, but that's a tale so far), no land controlled by the Others, and no Other children. I know Craster's sons supposedly become Others, but where are the children then? There's none of the above shown in Other society so far.




I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.




From what we've seen of the Others in the AGOT, they are equalists. They do not win glory. One Other fought Royce, but they all killed him together when it came time to do so. They shared the kill, nor was there any particular leadership amongst them.




I shall live and die at my post.




Again, why focus on dying at your post? The Night's Watch is supposedly formed to fight the Others. Dying at your post just aids the enemy by giving them wights. But if that's the point as the men are for the Others, then swearing someone to die there helps them.




I am the sword in the darkness.




Sword in the darkness? The most deadly blades are the ones that you do not see. What better way to hide an army for the Others, then to have them seemingly be a weapon against them?




I am the watcher on the walls.




Again, this part of the oath is just saying that they watch the walls while alive. But as noted above, their watch only lasts until they die. Nothing saying what happens after they die, and their watch (staying at the Wall) ends. They are only being sworn to stay at this wall and die.




I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.




And then there's these two lines, that doesn't really fit with the previous lines. Which indicates to me that these are later additions to the original oath, or changes have been made to them. They're not only far longer than the other lines, but can downright contradict them. "I pledge my honour to the Night's Watch"? Didn't you just swear to win no glory, hold no lands, father no children, wear no crowns, etc? All things that your honour would derive from (you're a good ruler, great knight, great father, loyal husband, etc)?



Furthermore, you are pledging your life for "this night and all the nights to come". The Night's Watch was supposedly founded after the Long Night. Shouldn't they be worried about pledging their life against the night that doesn't end (i.e another Long Night), and not against every regular night? Whereas if you were a force for the Others, your life would only be needed for every regular night, and your death will be needed for the Long Night.




Hope I didn't sound to crackpot here :) But looked this way, it doesn't really seem like the Night's Watch is there to fight the Others, but die for them and give them their army.


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Huh. Did not know he was friends with the Balrog :)

There is no Balrog at Hardhome. Textual evidence proves there is however a Balrog at Winterfell. You must be a newbie.

Umm. . . not sure how I feel about that. And what, pray tell, will Ghost be doing? Just going along with the mission I suppose.

Ghost will be watching jealously as Kit Harrington attempts to "go into" the Other's horse.
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Has anybody ever suggested that maybe the Night's Watch is actually a military force for the Others, not against them?

If you are the defenders and watchmen against the Others, why is your watch only beginning as they arrive (night gathers = Long Night)? You are supposedly a force of watchmen. Watchmen are only useful if they know about threats before hand. Your watch should be beginning before night gathers. If on the other hand, you are a force for the Others, you'd only be needed once night gathered and they were ready for you. Hence your watch beginning then, and not before.

Not only that, but who do the Others seemingly use for their armies? Dead people. We have an entire order of men who stay at this wall until they die. They are not allowed to leave. It would be awfully convenient that there is a standing army of men left at this location who stay there until death, if your armies are composed of dead men. Why gather all these men, who only 300 years ago numbered 10,000, and force them to stay in this one location when the enemy can raise the dead? You're practically handing them an army by concentrating this many men in this location instead of spreading them out across the country... which only makes sense if the army is for the dead, and not the living.

Furthermore, their watch is stated to only last while they are alive. This goes hand in hand with the above saying that they are not needed until the Others arrive. They watch till then. Their true purpose comes with their death, and there is nothing in these oaths saying that they are supposed to fight while they are alive. Just that they watch until they die. Which is odd for a force of "defenders".

We have yet to see any female Others (other than the Night's King tale, but that's a tale so far), no land controlled by the Others, and no Other children. I know Craster's sons supposedly become Others, but where are the children then? There's none of the above shown in Other society so far.

From what we've seen of the Others in the AGOT, they are equalists. They do not win glory. One Other fought Royce, but they all killed him together when it came time to do so. They shared the kill, nor was there any particular leadership amongst them.

Again, why focus on dying at your post? The Night's Watch is supposedly formed to fight the Others. Dying at your post just aids the enemy by giving them wights. But if that's the point as the men are for the Others, then swearing someone to die there helps them.

Sword in the darkness? The most deadly blades are the ones that you do not see. What better way to hide an army for the Others, then to have them seemingly be a weapon against them?

Again, this part of the oath is just saying that they watch the walls while alive. But as noted above, their watch only lasts until they die. Nothing saying what happens after they die, and their watch (staying at the Wall) ends. They are only being sworn to stay at this wall and die.

And then there's these two lines, that doesn't really fit with the previous lines. Which indicates to me that these are later additions to the original oath, or changes have been made to them. They're not only far longer than the other lines, but can downright contradict them. "I pledge my honour to the Night's Watch"? Didn't you just swear to win no glory, hold no lands, father no children, wear no crowns, etc? All things that your honour would derive from (you're a good ruler, great knight, great father, loyal husband, etc)?

Furthermore, you are pledging your life for "this night and all the nights to come". The Night's Watch was supposedly founded after the Long Night. Shouldn't they be worried about pledging their life against the night that doesn't end (i.e another Long Night), and not against every regular night? Whereas if you were a force for the Others, your life would only be needed for every regular night, and your death will be needed for the Long Night.

Hope I didn't sound to crackpot here :) But looked this way, it doesn't really seem like the Night's Watch is there to fight the Others, but die for them and give them their army.

Hmm.. . I dunno, but if that were the case. . . it might make more sense that they were founded around the time of the Night's King, ratherar than before. And am not sure (because the varying timeline possibilities are already unclear in my brain) how that all would work.

There is no Balrog at Hardhome. Textual evidence proves there is however a Balrog at Winterfell. You must be a newbie.

Ghost will be watching jealously as Kit Harrington attempts to "go into" the Other's horse.

Oh, you must be getting confused again. :) The Ice Balrog is the one at Winterfell. I meant the Fire Balrog at Hardhome.

Here's the Ice Balrog flying over, you can make out his head there in the bottom corner of the pic.

He has been hanging out a lot recently with the Ice Dragon. That photo is currently classified, however.

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Hmm.. . I dunno, but if that were the case. . . it might make more sense that they were founded around the time of the Night's King, ratherar than before. And am not sure (because the varying timeline possibilities are already unclear in my brain) how that all would work.

There's also this

“You won’t find it. If you did it wouldn’t open. Not for you. It’s the Black Gate.” Sam plucked at the faded black wool of his sleeve. “Only a man of the Night’s Watch can open it, he said. A Sworn Brother who has said his words.

They were white too, and blind. “Who are you?” the door asked, and the well whispered, “Who-who-who-who-who-whowho.”

“I am the sword in the darkness,” Samwell Tarly said. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.”

“Then pass,” the door said.

The door at the Nightfort let Sam pass when he said the words that I thought were part of a later addition to the original oath. Coldhands says that he cannot pass through the Wall, despite seemingly being a member of the Night's Watch, as you need to have said your words.

The common interpretation is that he can't pass because he's dead. But Othor passed through the Wall, and Othor has sworn the oath that Sam has which includes what I think to be the newer additions to the oath. My interpretation, stemming off what I already said, would therefore be that Coldhands is a member of the Night's Watch, but of the original version. He cannot pass as he hasn't sworn the new words when the oath was changed to reflect that they are supposed to fight the Others, and not aid them.

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Has anybody ever suggested that maybe the Night's Watch is actually a military force for the Others, not against them?

<snip>

Hope I didn't sound to crackpot here :) But looked this way, it doesn't really seem like the Night's Watch is there to fight the Others, but die for them and give them their army.

It's come up a lot actually. Not crackpot at all. But I do think it's unlikely. There's a SSM in which he says he decided to put his 'good guys' in black, instead of white. Maybe someone has it handy? If indeed the Night's Watch is the good guys, and the true threat to Westeros is the Others, I think this strongly suggests that the Night's Watch are who they're advertised to be.

Given their origin*, I think they are contemporaries of the Night's King, but I think they've always been opposed to the Others...

*8,000 years ago the long night happens

*8,000 years ago the Others come for the first time

*8,000 years ago the Last Hero seeks arcane magics

*8,000 years ago the Night's Watch is founded

*8,000 years ago Bran the Builder builds the Wall

*8,000 years ago Night's King declares his pale woman queen

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There's also this

The door at the Nightfort let Sam pass when he said the words that I thought were part of a later addition to the original oath. Coldhands says that he cannot pass through the Wall, despite seemingly being a member of the Night's Watch, as you need to have said your words.

The common interpretation is that he can't pass because he's dead. But Othor passed through the Wall, and Othor has sworn the oath that Sam has which includes what I think to be the newer additions to the oath. My interpretation, stemming off what I already said, would therefore be that Coldhands is a member of the Night's Watch, but of the original version. He cannot pass as he hasn't sworn the new words when the oath was changed to reflect that they are supposed to fight the Others, and not aid them.

We had a good discussion on the oath some time back as well. Given the part Samwell recites at the Black Gate, it seems important and quite old.

Re Coldhands being unable to pass the Wall, here's the passage (emphasis is original):


“There’s a gate,” said fat Sam. “A hidden gate, as old as the Wall itself. The Black Gate, he called it.”

The Reeds exchanged a look. “We’ll find this gate at the bottom of the well?” asked Jojen.

Sam shook his head. “You won’t. I have to take you.”

“Why?” Meera demanded. “If there’s a gate…”

“You won’t find it. If you did it wouldn’t open. Not for you. It’s the Black Gate.” Sam plucked at the faded black wool of his sleeve. “Only a man of the Night’s Watch can open it, he said. A Sworn Brother who has said his words.”

He said.” Jojen frowned. “This… Coldhands?”

“That wasn’t his true name,” said Gilly, rocking. “We only called him that, Sam and me. His hands were cold as ice, but he saved us from the dead men, him and his ravens, and he brought us here on his elk.”

“His elk?” said Bran, wonderstruck.

“His elk?” said Meera, startled.

“His ravens?” said Jojen.

“Hodor?” said Hodor.

“Was he green?” Bran wanted to know. “Did he have antlers?”

The fat man was confused. “The elk?”

Coldhands,” said Bran impatiently. “The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too.”

“He wasn’t a green man. He wore blacks, like a brother of the Watch, but he was pale as a wight, with hands so cold that at first I was afraid. The wights have blue eyes, though, and they don’t have tongues, or they’ve forgotten how to use them.” The fat man turned to Jojen. “He’ll be waiting. We should go. Do you have anything warmer to wear? The Black Gate is cold, and the other side of the Wall is even colder. You—”

“Why didn’t he come with you?” Meera gestured toward Gilly and her babe. “They came with you, why not him? Why didn’t you bring him through this Black Gate too?”

“He… he can’t.”

“Why not?”

“The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it… old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall.”

It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon. Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy. You needn’t fear. There are no monsters here.


I wonder if rather than being prevented/forbidden from passing through the Black Gate, if Coldhands simply cannot, else the magic sustaining his "life" would be ended....

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It's come up a lot actually. Not crackpot at all. But I do think it's unlikely. There's a SSM in which he says he decided to put his 'good guys' in black, instead of white. Maybe someone has it handy? If indeed the Night's Watch is the good guys, and the true threat to Westeros is the Others, I think this strongly suggests that the Night's Watch are who they're advertised to be.

Given their origin*, I think they are contemporaries of the Night's King, but I think they've always been opposed to the Others...

*8,000 years ago the long night happens

*8,000 years ago the Others come for the first time

*8,000 years ago the Last Hero seeks arcane magics

*8,000 years ago the Night's Watch is founded

*8,000 years ago Bran the Builder builds the Wall

*8,000 years ago Night's King declares his pale woman queen

Well I think that now they're the good guys, or at least think that they're the good guys. I'm just not so sure that when the Night's Watch was founded that they were. Which would also make this statement quite ironic:

“We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night’s Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don’t build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men... and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he’s here, but we don’t know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?”

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Well I think that now they're the good guys, or at least think that they're the good guys. I'm just not so sure that when the Night's Watch was founded that they were. Which would also make this statement quite ironic:

Sure I getcha. I'm open to the possibility. And that would indeed lace Mormont's words with a heavy layer of irony. Don't think it's likely, but clearly there are connections to be made.

A strike against: why would Night's King have been banished if the Night's Watch served the Others?

Evidence in favor: the Others, if all male, "father no sons." Instead, they harvest babes found in the wood...

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BC, can we just agree to call Night's King "Mayhaps Brandon" Stark?

Nah, if his brother who overthrew him was Brandon the Breaker I'd say its pretty unlikely.

Mind you, it's interesting to speculate as to what Brandon broke and the likeliest I would say is that he broke some kind of pact with Joruman, but that mayhap can be discussed in Heresy 160 coming to an electronic device near you in the next few minutes.

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Has anybody ever suggested that maybe the Night's Watch is actually a military force for the Others, not against them?

As Voice has already responded, this is a question which we've discussed at some length on various occasions, but can and no doubt will do again.

The short answer as to how we tend to rationalise it is that the original Watch was quite small and based at the Nightfort to look after the Black Gate as the only crossing point. They [mayhap only 13 of them] were then destroyed by Brandon the Breaker and replaced by an entirely new Watch which is the one we know.

There are various wrinkles to this, arguments and counter-arguments, but again there's no point in going into them here because Heresy 160 awaits.

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