Heresy 159

[wolfmaid7]

I still prefer the idea of Rhaegar making Lyanna their May Queen, with Howland playing the part of the Green Man.

My second favorite baby daddy theory.

Well, one maester is dabbling... the rest seem diametrically opposed to magic. That Samwell chapter is pretty cool when he meets Marwyn. We learn the Citadel has proactively sought to suppress magic. No wonder all those Targaryens failed to hatch their dragon eggs! Too many grey mice about the Red Keep all those years, eating their old parchments.

I don't know about integral to the plot, but the Faceless Man in the Citadel is there to do one thing, and one thing only. People like to think the Faceless Men are spies. And while they do collect secrets, they are assassins. Someone at the Citadel is marked for death.

Has Samwell made a powerful enemy? Seems unlikely Ser Puddles' brother would hire a Faceless Man. Alleras or Marwyn would be my guess. Dany seems even more likely, if Marwyn brings Pate with him to Meereen.

We know how much time Faceless Men spend planning their perfect assassinations, and it would seem unlikely "Pate" didn't know news would soon reach Marwyn that would compel him to go to Dany's side. Either the Faceless Men don't want that to happen, or they do, so they can kill Dany. We know they aren't fond of Valyrian Dragonlords :devil:

Well there are those in the Citadel devoted to the "Higer Mysteries" they may not be so vocal or so visible and quite understandable given the stigma of those who dabble but that there's a small group that dabble,that's enough.I'm interested in the specifics of getting Walgrave's personal key.I might of missed something there for sure,i doubt it was only because he was easy pickings being a bit senile.But since Snowy's bit about Walgrave as a possible Skinchanger.The man was briliant in his day,so i'm wondering if the whole interest of the FM lay beyond wanting to kill Dragons or Dany surely they know about etting them good in the eye.They are looking for something in particular.

His first name seems lost to time, but mayhaps his name was Brandon... Mayhaps he slept in this very Sidhe Hill ;)

They've been so many Brandons who the hell knows

I've suggested it often, and I believe it. Aegon was the KG's job in Dorne.

Not a bad thought.

[superunknown5]

Oh very nice catch, and here it is going all the way back to 2002:

Continuing the most ambitious and imaginative epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings The action in Book Four of A Song of Ice and Fire begins the day after the end of A STORM OF SWORDS. While the remaining northern lords war endlessly with each other and the ironmen of the isles attack the Dreadfort, Sansa becomes a skilled player in the game of thrones with Littlefinger as her mentor, Arya a skilled assassin, and Bran a magician and shapeshifter of great power. All seek to gain revenge for the death of their parents and Robb Stark, whose head was cut off and replaced with the head of his direwolf. Valar morghulis. All men must die, and wolves, too. Danerys trains her growing dragons and learns from Barristan the secrets of her father, her brother Rhaegar, and other matters that will culminate at Starfall. And Jon Snow is the nine-hundredth-and-ninety-eighth lord commander of the Night's Watch. The Wall is his. The night is dark, and he has King Stannis to face. The cold wind is rising, and still there are inhuman powers gathering in the north. "

Essentially this seems to confirm that ADwD is largely the second half of AFFC. The Starfall reference is intriguing though. At the very least it would appear to confirm that what went down in Dorne took place at Starfall rather than in a tower up in the Prince's Pass - and if it does turn out that Ser Arthur Dayne was a player and not just Rhaegar's stooge, remember that you read it here first.

:commie: :commie: :commie:

I've suddenly got this warm, fuzzy feeling inside. :cheers:

ETA...And then you harshed my buzz on the next page. LOL. I have to confess, though I prefer my Arthur de Bergerac theory, Ashara smuggling Aegon is pretty compelling too. I wonder, could both be true? It seems to me that Arthur and Ashara are equally signifcant figures in our story. Maybe Jon is the Sword of the Morning AND Ashara smuggled Aegon?

[Mother of Dragons]

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna = Jon

That would be interesting and I'd like it if Sword of Morning & Queen of Winter essentially have a son that can stop the upcoming long night. That's assuming that Dawn was the original sword that ended the long night. But I'm starting to like how this theory is adding up.

Especially if GRRM is trolling his fans with the R+L=J theory. It would be funny if he admitted one day he was ;)

[Blazfemur]

ah, marwyn, one of the story's most interesting characters. this should be awesome. did he cut varys? is varys, really, "varys?" will Daenerys accept his help, if she finds out that it was marwyn, that trained Mirri, who outright killed her child AND lover.

it's going to be an outright battle for attention between moqorro/red church, and marwyn/the citadel with dany. and if moqorro can see and warn daenerys of what marwyn is, marwyn will have to really choose his words wisely.

but getting back on topic of the faceless men's intentions with the citadel, id assume getting access to a glass candle would be most effective when getting to know your target before a hit. thats the only thing i can think of, infiltration, indiana jones that candle, leave.

[Blazfemur]

what if marwyn, was just an intended "hit?"

[Mother of Dragons]

And the interesting question, of course... is What Records? Given Sam's statement that:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. (4.05, SAMWELL)

Ok, its been awhile since I did a proper reread, so please bear with the cobwebs, but I always pictured there was a great book or something that listed them at Castle Black. Otherwise, how do they know about 998?

Speaking of which, I'll digress a bit. I think someone else will be 999 in lieu of Jon Snow's accident, then he'll reprise the role again at 1000. I have no textual evidence other than the open spot for 1000 seems significant, right? Why 998? I'm sure I can search for threads with theories on this.

[WeaselPie]

Walys "Hightower" Flowers, bastard son of an Archmaester and a Hightower girl. Conveniently assigned to Winterfell. Related by bastard blood to Gerold Hightower - KG, Rhaegar's companion, and opponent to Ned at the ToJ.

If the topic is Greenseers vs Maesters, what of Walys? Whisperer, matchmaker...and Lyanna's (and Ned's and Brandon's and Rickard's and Benjen's) own Maester. A Citadel Hightower bastard amongst the Wargs of the North, this is not random, otherwise why didn't GRRM name him Maester Joe Shmoe? Lady Dustin made the connection, so should we.

Dorne and some lesser houses may have used midwives, but Maesters normally delivered castle-born noble ladies of their babies.

Disappeared from the pages. Catelyn brought Maester Luwin to Winterfell, which sounds to me like Cat/Hoster put in an order for a new one. Luwin attended Robb's birth at Riverrun, then accompanied Cat and Robb to Winterfell.

Semi-crackpot: he was among the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna's body.

[Blazfemur]

Walys "Hightower" Flowers, son of an Archmaester and a Hightower girl. Conveniently assigned to Winterfell.

If the topic is Greenseers vs Maesters, what of Walys? Whisperer, matchmaker...and Lyanna's own Maester. A Citadel Hightower bastard amongst the Wargs of the North.

Disappeared. Catelyn brought Luwin to Winterfell.

semi-crackpot: he was among the "they" who found Ned and Lyanna's body.

lyanna and her blood, didnt necessarily have to be just because of childbirth. what if she couldve survived giving birth, what if there was something more, that killed her and the to-be king. ned blacked out, which to me is a mask just waiting to get ripped off.

it's possible it's something more than "died during childbirth."

[Voice]

Well there are those in the Citadel devoted to the "Higer Mysteries" they may not be so vocal or so visible and quite understandable given the stigma of those who dabble but that there's a small group that dabble,that's enough.I'm interested in the specifics of getting Walgrave's personal key.I might of missed something there for sure,i doubt it was only because he was easy pickings being a bit senile.But since Snowy's bit about Walgrave as a possible Skinchanger.The man was briliant in his day,so i'm wondering if the whole interest of the FM lay beyond wanting to kill Dragons or Dany surely they know about etting them good in the eye.They are looking for something in particular.

Are there more than one? Sort of seems like it's just Marwyn who is devoted to the Higher Mysteries, but I could definitely be wrong...hard to remember...

And speaking of forgetting things, I totally forgot about Walgrave's key!!!

Think about this. AFFC and ADWD are two halves of the same book...sort of. If we combine them into a single volume we have:

In the prologue, Pate bringing Jaqen the key belonging to the keeper of the Citadel's white ravens...

Then in the epilogue, there is a white raven in Pycelle's quarters...

Might it be Winter hasn't truly come yet after all? Or did I just crack another iron cooking vessel?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Ok, its been awhile since I did a proper reread, so please bear with the cobwebs, but I always pictured there was a great book or something that listed them at Castle Black. Otherwise, how do they know about 998?

Speaking of which, I'll digress a bit. I think someone else will be 999 in lieu of Jon Snow's accident, then he'll reprise the role again at 1000. I have no textual evidence other than the open spot for 1000 seems significant, right? Why 998? I'm sure I can search for threads with theories on this.

Well you've got a great memory, then... that's just the next part of Sam's statement to Jon. I only cut 'n pasted part of the paragraph above - here's the whole thing:

"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books… either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or… well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King… we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during…" (4.05, SAMWELL)

There was some discussion of these lists in a (relatively) recent Heresy thread... oh, about a dozen renditions back. We even did a bit of math, to estimate about how old that list might be that Sam found. Though you may or may not find that reasonable. There's a good bit of disagreement on how to handle chronologies around here. :)

[Voice]

Ok, its been awhile since I did a proper reread, so please bear with the cobwebs, but I always pictured there was a great book or something that listed them at Castle Black. Otherwise, how do they know about 998?

Speaking of which, I'll digress a bit. I think someone else will be 999 in lieu of Jon Snow's accident, then he'll reprise the role again at 1000. I have no textual evidence other than the open spot for 1000 seems significant, right? Why 998? I'm sure I can search for threads with theories on this.

The real purpose in him being 998th is so that he can return as 999th, which upside down is 666... Illuminati... LOL

[Voice]

ah, marwyn, one of the story's most interesting characters. this should be awesome. did he cut varys? is varys, really, "varys?" will Daenerys accept his help, if she finds out that it was marwyn, that trained Mirri, who outright killed her child AND lover.

it's going to be an outright battle for attention between moqorro/red church, and marwyn/the citadel with dany. and if moqorro can see and warn daenerys of what marwyn is, marwyn will have to really choose his words wisely.

but getting back on topic of the faceless men's intentions with the citadel, id assume getting access to a glass candle would be most effective when getting to know your target before a hit. thats the only thing i can think of, infiltration, indiana jones that candle, leave.

The MMD connection is literally far-fetched ;) but I think it'd be awesome writing if he was the experimentor that cut Varys.

[WeaselPie]

lyanna and her blood, didnt necessarily have to be just because of childbirth. what if she couldve survived giving birth, what if there was something more, that killed her and the to-be king. ned blacked out, which to me is a mask just waiting to get ripped off.

it's possible it's something more than "died during childbirth."

That is beside the point I was trying to make, but noted and agreed. Mercy-killing and suicide are just as possible as childbirth.

Re: the convo about the Citadel maesters vs. greenseers, we already have a SCREAMING example of a Maester specifically placed with the Starks, who also happens to be a Hightower. Barbrey goes out of her way to remind us.

[Mother of Dragons]

Even if Lyanna assents to it, the practice of the Old Gods south of the Wall certainly appears to prohibit it.

Otherwise somebody really should have told Robb that he had a get-out-of-jail-free card before old Waldy decided to stick Grey Wind's head on his corpse.

Here's the thing. I have a hard time with Lyanna accepting a polygamous marriage, too, but we do have precedent for it south of the wall with the Targs. I think at least 2 of them married all their sisters, not just one. If Rhaegar is trying to fulfill this prophecy, he could conceivably follow his ancestors' ancient custom. Especially as he's portrayed as an intellectual, I'm sure he read the histories.

That would be an argument for Rhaegar's possible big love, but I'm liking the Arthur Dayne theory more. Only thing is, how does Lyanna meet and fall in love (if it's love) with him? He breaks his Kingsguard oath? The oath I find easier to swallow than polygamy.

[Pielord]

The real purpose in him being 998th is so that he can return as 999th, which upside down is 666... Illuminati... LOL

Lucifer does mean Lightbringer :laugh:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Are there more than one? Sort of seems like it's just Marwyn who is devoted to the Higher Mysteries, but I could definitely be wrong...hard to remember...

Depends. Luwin identifies the Valyrian steel link in connection with "higher mysteries," and offers some bah humbug discussion of it. And Marwyn is clearly the Archmaester associated with that particular link in the chain. When we meet him he goes on about Valyrian magic, fire and blood, glass candles, etc., yadda yadda... then runs out the door to hop a ship east to Essos. A place he's been before, where he's acquired some learning.

But there's something peculiarly eastern about the magics Marwyn concerns himself with. And the magic Bran asked Luwin about in the first place was the magic of the old gods, the greenseers, and the COTF... which are native to Westeros. So maybe Luwin hid the ball on us. Meanwhile... after Marwyn takes his boat east, we still have one Archmaster left on the Isle of Ravens: Walgrave, Archmaester of Ravenry and the black iron link... secret skinchanger, and breeder of white ravens for the Citadel. He looks senile - and he's older than anyone realizes - but we know from Varamyr's prologue that spending too much time warging birds tends to leave you "moony." We also know both from Old Nan's stories, and from Bloodraven, that the COTF once taught the First Men to send messages by raven... "but in those days the birds would speak the words." And (so far, anyway) skinchanging seems to be a particularly Westerosi form of magic.

My guess is that there are two archmaesters at the Citadel whose disciplines are primarily concerned with magic. I'm looking forward to finding out more of what Walgrave is up to in the next book...

[Voice]

Lucifer does mean Lightbringer :laugh:

Indeed it does :) Welcome to Heresy Pielord

[Balerion06]

Is it an off-chance if they know Marwyn will go? Wants to go? Not really.

And respectfully, my convoluted interpretation at least includes assassination... yours sounds moreso because it doesn't. It's hard for me to imagine the Citadel has anything related to death the Faceless Men haven't already mastered. Theirs may even be the elder temple.

Haha considering how utterly vague my theory is, feel free to disagree

I dunno. I just have a feeling there's more to the FM than assassination, and I think whatever it is they're after in the Citadel is something bigger than just another hit.

[Blazfemur]

That is beside the point I was trying to make, but noted and agreed. Mercy-killing and suicide are just as possible as childbirth.

Re: the convo about the Citadel maesters vs. greenseers, we already have a SCREAMING example of a Maester specifically placed with the Starks, who also happens to be a Hightower. Barbrey goes out of her way to remind us.

i need to open up a little i think, i hear across the forum occassionally that the hightowers were outright despicable evil people. the only hightower i am aware of was the most recent one int he kingsguard.

can i get a brushup on why the hightowers are so hated?

[Voice]

Depends. Luwin identifies the Valyrian steel link in connection with "higher mysteries," and offers some bah humbug discussion of it. And Marwyn is clearly the Archmaester associated with that particular link in the chain. When we meet him he goes on about Valyrian magic, fire and blood, glass candles, etc., yadda yadda... then runs out the door to hop a ship east to Essos. A place he's been before, where he's acquired some learning.

But there's something peculiarly eastern about the magics Marwyn concerns himself with. And the magic Bran asked Luwin about in the first place was the magic of the old gods, the greenseers, and the COTF... which are native to Westeros. So maybe Luwin hid the ball on us. Meanwhile... after Marwyn takes the boat east, we still have one Archmaster left on the Isle of Ravens. Walgrave, Archmaester of Ravenry... secret skinchanger, and breeder of white ravens for the Citadel. He looks senile - and he's older than anyone realizes - but we know from Varamyr's prologue that spending too much time warging birds tends to leave you "moony." We also know both from Old Nan's stories, and from Bloodraven, that the COTF once taught the First Men to send messages by raven... "but in those days the birds would speak the words." And (so far, anyway) skinchanging seems to be a particularly Westerosi form of magic.

My guess is that there are two archmaesters at the Citadel whose disciplines are primarily concerned with magic. I'm looking forward to finding out more of what Walgrave is up to in the next book...

Sure, I can dig that. The whole ravenry idea, spending time with ravens, teaching them words, sending messages... all evokes Old Gods imagery. I don't mind saying there are two at the Citadel then, who've gone beyond forging a Valyrian link in terms of the Higher Mysteries. But it still seems like both Marwyn and Walgrave are marginalized. The institution of the Citadel, according to Marwyn, seems quite opposed to magic. While their element obviously exists, and is making gains (the candles are burning), they seem to be the subversive element in hiding, rather than respected for their strides.