Impressions and Commentary on the Season 5 Premiere

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Need to buy a cabin in the woods with no internet access for that

It would take a minor miracle, yes.

[Mellybelle]

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/03/game-of-thrones-tv-show-will-spoil-books

The books are going to be spoiled. This won't be a problem for me since I'm one of those weird people who likes to read the last page first, but it will bother some folks.

Melanie

[Ser Creighton]

I would not rush to judge just yet, not that Siskle and Ebert are wrong, but I haven't seen shit so I wouldn't know. Linda is more critical and looks for a more faithful adaptation and Elio tends to be more forgiving, both speak to certain aspects and members of the fandom.

I would say this, again probably not the best episode to judge on, episode 1 never is. Th missing stuff, pulled sub plots, well not much to say, they obviously didn;t have room for them. I still think we will get an amalgamation of some plots, like Dany and Aegon.

On Varys, one thing I will say and I have not seen it yet, but when dealing with Varys or Littlefinger, what they say may not always be the truth or the whole the truth. Kind of need to see where they go with it.

Cersei and whitewashing, yeah I don't argue it, I do hope we get another flashback with her. I mean honestly how can you pass on little Cersei tossing another little girl in the well? I always thought Cersei ifar more reflected Aerys in Crows and in some of her later scenes. The whole wildfire angle and everything, even her three kids to an extent, like Joff and Visarys and Mercylla and Rhaegar with the Dornish angle there, not the same bot sort of symbolic hints and nods, Tommen and his 3 cats and the bad cat with the one eye. Stuff like that. Maybe later Cersei reflects back to doing something bad ass a child. I know it's HBO but just because she is a woman does not mean she can't be cray cray, or evil or cruel and mean. It's snot an attack on woman anyone can be those things.

Dany and whitewashing? Ummmm I ca't say I feel she has been all that witewashed. Like in Qarth in the books Dany never threatened the 13 because she didn't get her way. She was just like whatever and moved on. But in the show she had a temper tantrum. Hiz never came in and talked about the innocent slavers, it is not even addressed in the books, but on the show theyhave innocent good, nice slavers, and I don't know where they found them in history, but whatever.

That said again I think it may be best to hold off judgment on the story line for a whole season. Because it is about identity this year like Dance and Dance had the stripping away of identities, and struggles between between peoples identities. Jon was torn between the Watch, the Wildlings and being a Stark, Arya had the FM and her identity as a Stark, and Dany was torn between the slaves and the slavers looking for a way to make peace. Eventually though we see her very much stripped down at the end of Dance which is probably the best chapter in the book or one of them. You see it very much with Cersei as well, physically and mentally.

So I can't say I see any big deal with Dany once again showing considertion for the small folk, the less fortunates of the world. She has been that way for a some time in the books. I don't think fire and blood has anything to do with how she feels about the small folk but rather how she deals with her enemies. Diplomacy has a line, it doesn't always work. But in sme cases you can't say hey diplomacy didn't work so everyone go back to being a slave. Ummm I don't agree that any character is one thing, people are way to complex for that, so yes she is a conqueror but that is not all she is, she is a rescuer as well, and a mother, and often more considerate than anyone of the down trodden. Sure she wants her throne back but I don't know that the show has ignored that at all as that has been her plan for awhile.

Besides Westeros deserves to get nailed for their bullshit a little bit, from the begining of the series the small folk have been getting crushed. Now I happen to have heard Emilia talk about her character this season and she says Dany is going to make some questionable choices and get into some murky waters and shit is going to go down. So I think in the first few episodes they may take the characters in certain directions to build them up for the audience get you back into the feel for that character, start throwing in the tough choices, and questionable choices and then start stripping them down.

I really do hope we get Dany's last chapter, but I am not sure we will, because I don't see the Dothraki returning. In fact I don't remember the last time I saw a Dothraki, which is annoying. It will bother me if we don't get the walk. But from what I have seen of Jon at Hardhome, he may be the one doing some walking. I also note that Dany appears to be the one dealing with Daggers this year, not poison.

Oh and I am glad Mance is dead, honestly sometimes I wonder if D&D read the books or how much they remember. So poorly casted, a very good actor but just wtf were you thinking?

Also I don't by the Varys story about Robert, the problem started after Robert died and does not even fit what we have seen on the show. And honestly there plan would make no sense, here we will see Dany to a Dothraki warlord so we can what bring a bunch of Dothraki slavers to Westeros to help the country? Or that selling them to begin with? What kind of fucked up plan is that, we just know she will break Drogo to her will and wake Dragons and free slaves? How is that even a plot? I don't want to here some bullshit that it was a test either.

I would hope they have a long game for this because the short game makes no sense at all, Varys has to be lying about something.

[CowsGoMoo]

If Maggy isn't a retcon, she's the next best thing, and arguing that Cersei only remember her because of the recent traumatic events makes it even more retcon-y. "Oh, by the way, I just remembered this incrediby important information right now. What were the chances?"

Given all the shit happening to Cersei, it does make sense that a prophecy that she previously dismissed as rubbish now resounds with her paranoia and pops up in her memory. Cersei has been an adult for a long time and has had many events happen to her, so why would she stil be worrying now about a prophecy she dismissed as silly at the time.

And the prophecy isn't incredibly important: it's just shit that fuels her craziness. I don't really like how big some people play it to be.

This is a whitewashing I can get behind, because Cersei being a mustache twirling villain from day one and throwing kids into wells like that fucking Orphan movie was ridiculously over the top

Kids can be crazy. A privileged child fuelled by selfishness and jealousy quite realistically could kill. It's not like Cersei was murdering every other day as a child.

[tyrell19]

enjoyed the video, wish you were a tad more balanced but I suppose its your opinion. I do have to say though your whitewashing complaints are a bit premature. Dany has in no way been whitewashed by the show. Season 4 is a great example of that. The wheel scene I'm sure is just a way of giving her an arc which ends with fire and blood.

As for Cersei, I kind of hope ep 10 will open with the second half of the flashback before cutting to her coming out of the great sept of Baelor. Maybe I'm been too optimistic. If not it wouldn't bother me. I wouldn't say its completely warping the character not having her killed Melara, that is only an implied evil in the books. I think its much more important how they handle her downfall this season. If they mitigate most of her actions then I will agree and say they are whitwashing her.

[sj4iy]

Not reading any of them. I want to make my own judgment without any bias.

[shastada]

From the books I have always had the impression that Illyrio and Varys where playing a short game and a long game.

The short game is the Aegon deal with somehow Viserys and Daenerys folded in, have always felt we have had information about this withheld.

The long game is the invasion of the Others into Westeros , I must admist this is only by osmosis, mainly the dragons.

Maybe I got this wrong but isn't The Others invasion aimed at as the Big Problem?

There is a show down ... a Ragnarök with the Others that decides the fate of Westeros and maybe Essos as well?

Somehow Illyrio and Varys have figured this out long long long ago?

This 'Ice Mordor' war sort of trumps all the gaming for the Iron Throne ... maybe I have gotten the wrong impression from the story in the five novels?

You all know that the Aegon story plays a role in the big picture?

Because if he does not then roll on to big battle which I figure Westreos and Essos is going to win.

I don't recall any hints that Varys or Illyrio had any anticipation that the others were coming. I seriously doubt that Dany and Dragons were "plan A". It seems more like Aegon was always plan A and D+V were the B squad. Dany obviously gets 'upgraded' as an option the second the dragons come. No way you can say they anticipated the dragons hatching, hope maybe, but hope is not a plan.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

The implications of Varys being a Dany loyalist all this time means he and Illyrio were looking to replace the de facto stable leadership of Robert (Really Jon Arryn) with....Viserys

Simply not believable from Vary's perspective that unilke everyone else he is there "for the realm"

If you are pro Targ you don't set them up with Dothraki, in fact you do that if you want to make it look like you are helping but aren't, and you quietly hoping to to scupper the Willem darry/Prince Doran alliance revolving around Arianne and Viserys. At the very least contain its capability, eg Viserys marries into one House which is a crushable nuisance ala the Greyjoys, ut if Dany can marry into a second House, say the Tyrells who held the balance of power in the Wot5K then Dorne + Reach is a different proposition

Varys and Illyrio being pro Blackfyres headed by a King they have groomed "for the good of the realm" is the only thing that actually makes any sense at all

Not to mention the major irony of the entire saga is that a Robert led united Westeros as was the case in AGoT where there's no Dragons is arguably the most capable form of leadership against the Others/White Walkers/Wights.

I don't really agree with this, but even if it was 100% correct it's not Varys' fault Robert died, is it?

[Razha]

I don't really agree with this, but even if it was 100% correct it's not Varys' fault Robert died, is it?

But he allowed this to happen, didn't he?

I mean if he just wants stability in the realm - wouldn't it be much easier and less bloody just to get rid of a couple of people, instead of starting a full scale war / invasion?

He could have just poisoned/arranged accidents for just 3 people: Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey and try to mould Tommen into a good ruler - even if this sounds complicated - this is still much easier than plan a complex game to bring an entitled, barren girl with a history of mental instability in the family and with a penchant for the dangerous, "bad body" types... Even if he helps Danny to invade – so far she has shown herself to be a quite independent minded person – this gives no guarantees that she would not set him aside just like her father got rid of many hands and advisors.

[The Anti-Targ]

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/03/game-of-thrones-tv-show-will-spoil-books

The books are going to be spoiled. This won't be a problem for me since I'm one of those weird people who likes to read the last page first, but it will bother some folks.

Melanie

I do love how Benioff tried to claim that people knowing how it all ends will help sales of the books. Most people who see the movie, don't bother reading the book after. People ran out and bought the series, as it currently stands, in droves because they wanted to know what happens next, Once they know the full story, as told by the show that will be that.

I know I probably won't, which is why I will have to stop watching the show once the spoiling starts in earnest. It sounds like Season 5 is going to be pretty well spoiler free for TWoW and my fingers will be crossed that TWoW comes out before S6 so that I can get through season 6. But Season's 7 (and 8?) will have to be thrown into a dark room until I read the final book; 10 years from now.

[Faceless Man Friday]

I for one have read many a book after seeing the movie. After watching Red October. I bought the book. Liked it so much I then proceeded to read all of the Tom Clancy novels. Some before I saw the movie based on the book some after. To me the experience of reading is so different from watching that it doesn't matter to me either way as to what comes first.

[sj4iy]

I for one have read many a book after seeing the movie. After watching Red October. I bought the book. Liked it so much I then proceeded to read all of the Tom Clancy novels. Some before I saw the movie based on the book some after. To me the experience of reading is so different from watching that it doesn't matter to me either way as to what comes first.

Same for me. Actually, exactly the same, because I also read Red October after watching the movie XD

I don't expect them to be the same...I expect them to entertain me.

[yan]

I wouldnt be so sure about Mances death...

He will be burnt but i remember seeing the Lord of Bones in the first trailer.... so.....

[TheWhiteRabbit]

But he allowed this to happen, didn't he?

I mean if he just wants stability in the realm - wouldn't it be much easier and less bloody just to get rid of a couple of people, instead of starting a full scale war / invasion?

He could have just poisoned/arranged accidents for just 3 people: Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey and try to mould Tommen into a good ruler - even if this sounds complicated - this is still much easier than plan a complex game to bring an entitled, barren girl with a history of mental instability in the family and with a penchant for the dangerous, "bad body" types... Even if he helps Danny to invade so far she has shown herself to be a quite independent minded person this gives no guarantees that she would not set him aside just like her father got rid of many hands and advisors.

You state all these things Varys can do but there's no guarentee it would succeed in execution or in the intended consequence. Killing the Patriarch, Queen, and future king of the most powerful family and getting away with it without bloodshed? I think not. We don't know the full context of Varys' intentions, and I'm not going to assume we know his entire plan based on a two minute trailer or for that matter what he decides to tell a drunk and suicidal person that just killed their father.

Maybe the Dorthraki were the best option because that's how low the Targaryen family had fallen?

[Beric175]

I don't care about changes from books to show at this point. As long as I enjoy the show I can live with characters, events, etc. being different. Oh and next time I'll gladly take Linda's and Elio's invitations to the premiere if they're going to get arrogant and bored.

If the show is whitewashing Cersei, it's doing a poor job because everyone I talked to despises her already. I guess those Cersei-Tyrion moments are a big part of that...and the valonqar is not important, unless you want to tell people 2 seasons ahead that Cersei is going to die and who's going to kill her, which is stupid for 2 reasons: a) it takes awy surprise/suspense and b ) a huge section of the audience won't care about anything else you throw at them once prophecies are involved (see LOST). Also, the books have 5000 pages to make Cersei nuanced enough to where we can hate her and still understand her motivations and feel kinda bad for her once she gets her comeuppance but the show has a much more limited space it can allocate to Cersei as a character. If the Walk of Shame is to make people question the chauvinism and sexism of the society on display then it needs to happen to a character who is not an over-the-top loonie who burns towers for fun and randomly gives up people to Qyburn for awful and selfish reasons because then people don't care what happens to her or worse they'll enjoy it, unconsciously taking part in the sexism a scene like that would be trying to denounce. Just consider how bad the audience is when Skyler on Breaking Bad got so much hate and she was not Cersei by a long shot so to say that a woman like Cersei won't be hated in the eyes of that audience is foolish and I see no reason why the show should cater to tht audience and present Cersei in the worst light ever because Cersei does not consider anything she does as being bad anyway. Another example is when Joffrey died: people hated the characters so much that they could not empathise with Cersei's situation as a mother seeing her child die or the idea that Joffrey is still a human being dying without understanding how or why and looking for someone to help him. Instead, people just went 'yaaayy, the guy is dead'. Awful, just awful. And THAT'S why Cersei on the show is less evil: so that people can actually feel empathy or even sympathy for her situation because the show only has 10 episodes per season and only a small part of that time goes to Cersei. I don't understand why reders wnt the unsullied viewers to hate Cersei as much as they do: let people make their own decisions on the matter.

I can get behind Varys being a Targaryen loyalist. Thing is, he has said the 'for the realm' crap so often in the books and the show that at some point you have to sk yourself if he relly means it or if it's just something he tells others to disguise his real motive. I mean by that that I am not sure he believes that stuff himself.

Mance dying for real is good. Cuts out useless confusion and convoluted plot twists.

Dany doing something good for selfless reasons as opposed to destiny is fine, considering the show removed most prophecies so at least they follow through with their choices. Also, the show needs more characters with altruistic motivations. I get a lot of feedback from people who say they can't get into the show because there is no legitimately good-natured person in it. The sopa oper fAegon plot point cn burn in all seven hells. Most useless and redundant element in book 5. Dany is the slayer of lies, he's the mummer's dragon. Boom, Dany wins. Next.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I don't care about changes from books to show at this point. As long as I enjoy the show I can live with characters, events, etc. being different. Oh and next time I'll gladly take Linda's and Elio's invitations to the premiere if they're going to get arrogant and bored.

If the show is whitewashing Cersei, it's doing a poor job because everyone I talked to despises her already. I guess those Cersei-Tyrion moments are a big part of that...and the valonqar is not important, unless you want to tell people 2 seasons ahead that Cersei is going to die and who's going to kill her, which is stupid for 2 reasons: a) it takes awy surprise/suspense and b ) a huge section of the audience won't care about anything else you throw at them once prophecies are involved (see LOST). Also, the books have 5000 pages to make Cersei nuanced enough to where we can hate her and still understand her motivations and feel kinda bad for her once she gets her comeuppance but the show has a much more limited space it can allocate to Cersei as a character. If the Walk of Shame is to make people question the chauvinism and sexism of the society on display then it needs to happen to a character who is not an over-the-top loonie who burns towers for fun and randomly gives up people to Qyburn for awful and selfish reasons because then people don't care what happens to her or worse they'll enjoy it, unconsciously taking part in the sexism a scene like that would be trying to denounce. Just consider how bad the audience is when Skyler on Breaking Bad got so much hate and she was not Cersei by a long shot so to say that a woman like Cersei won't be hated in the eyes of that audience is foolish and I see no reason why the show should cater to tht audience and present Cersei in the worst light ever because Cersei does not consider anything she does as being bad anyway. Another example is when Joffrey died: people hated the characters so much that they could not empathise with Cersei's situation as a mother seeing her child die or the idea that Joffrey is still a human being dying without understanding how or why and looking for someone to help him. Instead, people just went 'yaaayy, the guy is dead'. Awful, just awful. And THAT'S why Cersei on the show is less evil: so that people can actually feel empathy or even sympathy for her situation because the show only has 10 episodes per season and only a small part of that time goes to Cersei. I don't understand why reders wnt the unsullied viewers to hate Cersei as much as they do: let people make their own decisions on the matter.

I can get behind Varys being a Targaryen loyalist. Thing is, he has said the 'for the realm' crap so often in the books and the show that at some point you have to sk yourself if he relly means it or if it's just something he tells others to disguise his real motive. I mean by that that I am not sure he believes that stuff himself.

Mance dying for real is good. Cuts out useless confusion and convoluted plot twists.

Dany doing something good for selfless reasons as opposed to destiny is fine, considering the show removed most prophecies so at least they follow through with their choices. Also, the show needs more characters with altruistic motivations. I get a lot of feedback from people who say they can't get into the show because there is no legitimately good-natured person in it. The sopa oper fAegon plot point cn burn in all seven hells. Most useless and redundant element in book 5. Dany is the slayer of lies, he's the mummer's dragon. Boom, Dany wins. Next.

It's funny you say that. I have an unsullied coworker who gave up on the show after the 7th episode because he thought most of the characters were mean or evil and there was no one to root for. Myself and a coworker convinced him to give it another shot. Hopefully another unsullied will be born.

I also agree with all your points. I hardly get the urge to over analyze every decision made by D&D and the growing popularity of the show is a big fat rebuttal to all of the hard to please critics.

[larastone]

I don't care about changes from books to show at this point. As long as I enjoy the show I can live with characters, events, etc. being different. Oh and next time I'll gladly take Linda's and Elio's invitations to the premiere if they're going to get arrogant and bored.

If the show is whitewashing Cersei, it's doing a poor job because everyone I talked to despises her already. I guess those Cersei-Tyrion moments are a big part of that...and the valonqar is not important, unless you want to tell people 2 seasons ahead that Cersei is going to die and who's going to kill her, which is stupid for 2 reasons: a) it takes awy surprise/suspense and b ) a huge section of the audience won't care about anything else you throw at them once prophecies are involved (see LOST). Also, the books have 5000 pages to make Cersei nuanced enough to where we can hate her and still understand her motivations and feel kinda bad for her once she gets her comeuppance but the show has a much more limited space it can allocate to Cersei as a character. If the Walk of Shame is to make people question the chauvinism and sexism of the society on display then it needs to happen to a character who is not an over-the-top loonie who burns towers for fun and randomly gives up people to Qyburn for awful and selfish reasons because then people don't care what happens to her or worse they'll enjoy it, unconsciously taking part in the sexism a scene like that would be trying to denounce. Just consider how bad the audience is when Skyler on Breaking Bad got so much hate and she was not Cersei by a long shot so to say that a woman like Cersei won't be hated in the eyes of that audience is foolish and I see no reason why the show should cater to tht audience and present Cersei in the worst light ever because Cersei does not consider anything she does as being bad anyway. Another example is when Joffrey died: people hated the characters so much that they could not empathise with Cersei's situation as a mother seeing her child die or the idea that Joffrey is still a human being dying without understanding how or why and looking for someone to help him. Instead, people just went 'yaaayy, the guy is dead'. Awful, just awful. And THAT'S why Cersei on the show is less evil: so that people can actually feel empathy or even sympathy for her situation because the show only has 10 episodes per season and only a small part of that time goes to Cersei. I don't understand why reders wnt the unsullied viewers to hate Cersei as much as they do: let people make their own decisions on the matter.

I can get behind Varys being a Targaryen loyalist. Thing is, he has said the 'for the realm' crap so often in the books and the show that at some point you have to sk yourself if he relly means it or if it's just something he tells others to disguise his real motive. I mean by that that I am not sure he believes that stuff himself.

Mance dying for real is good. Cuts out useless confusion and convoluted plot twists.

Dany doing something good for selfless reasons as opposed to destiny is fine, considering the show removed most prophecies so at least they follow through with their choices. Also, the show needs more characters with altruistic motivations. I get a lot of feedback from people who say they can't get into the show because there is no legitimately good-natured person in it. The sopa oper fAegon plot point cn burn in all seven hells. Most useless and redundant element in book 5. Dany is the slayer of lies, he's the mummer's dragon. Boom, Dany wins. Next.

Yep I kind of agree with everything that you're saying, even though I wish they had at least kept more of the sexuality aspect of Book Cersei. also the show just has this modern feel to it that the books don't have and with how so many of the other characters have alsobeen whitewashed, 100% Book Cersei wouldn't feel like she belongs in this show...if that makes any sense, especially since they've also whitewashed Tyrion so much

[Nibbio]

Yep I kind of agree with everything that you're saying, even though I wish they had at least kept more of the sexuality aspect of Book Cersei. also the show just has this modern feel to it that the books don't have and with how so many of the other characters have alsobeen whitewashed, 100% Book Cersei wouldn't feel like she belongs in this show...if that makes any sense, especially since they've also whitewashed Tyrion so much

Im not so sure about that.

[andrew_]

So the actor who played Jaqen H'ghar was at the premier. For me that confirms we're seeing him this season in a certain free city ;)

[Wendel Shoemaker]

So the actor who played Jaqen H'ghar was at the premier. For me that confirms we're seeing him this season in a certain free city ;)

Noticed that as well. Kind of funny since he's not supposed to go back to that face but I guess it's better for TV!