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Tyrell_like_Squirrel

Sympathy for the Blackfyres

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Alright, as I am on a bit of a Blackfyre kick, I can't help but start up another topic in defense of those rebellious bastards, the Blackfyres. Mostly what I'm looking for are fellow fans who can't help but love the Blackfyres and all their tragic rebellions.



If you think they're just a bunch of warmongering failures, then fine. Whatever dude.



But if you're like me, and you find a certain tragic beauty in the fight for Westeros, and for the Blackfyres in particular, then look no further for you have found a safe haven!



This thread is for anyone who loves them some Blackfyres, Daemon and his sons as well as that angry bastard Bracken, Bittersteel!



If you think that they weren't losers, if you like the forces that shaped them and are curious to see their history and what future role they might play, then please post here!



As for myself, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for Daemon Blackfyre. Unlike Daeron, he grew up with his father's support. His mother probably instilled a hatred of the Dornish from an early age, since it was her brother Daeron I who was killed treacherously by the Dornish. He saw himself as the true king, a conquering hero, and must have had some charisma to inspire a rebellion that almost changed the shape of history. He probably saw himself as his father's true heir, and I can't help but feel bad for how it all turned out.



I've already posted about my love for Bittersteel, but really. I love the fact that he founded this crazy awesome Mercenary company that still exists to this day. He's certainly no more petty and violent then Bloodraven, and I love the dynamic between the two half brothers.



All in all, love em or hate em, the Blackfyres certainly add a nice flavor to the series and I'd love to hear from other Blackfyre fans.




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Blackfyre and Bittersteel all the way.got to respect the guys who kept fighting after getting low blows from blood raven over and I over. I'm honestly more interested in their story than the main one at this point..

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Great point about Daena the Defiant hating the Dornish! Of course she idealised her brother so the treachery of the Dornish would have hurt. Then, Daemon's disdain/hatred for the Dornish would have been yet another thing that made him the lightning rod for the anti-Daeron clique.

I like the Blackfyre story for the romance of course, but it's also a fantastic lesson in two things:

(1) legitimacy is never a black and white issue

(2) there is always more to the story, because the story is always written by the winners.

It's interesting to consider the changing perceptions of Daeron and Daemon, as we learn more about what happened. For me, it went like this:

(1) Daemon is just an usurper

(2) no, Daeron is illegitimate, Daemon was the true king

(3) but still, Daeron proved he was a good king

(4) was he though? Was Dorne worth all the trouble?

We're kind of invited to conclude that Daeron was the better man for the job. But everything he did hinged on his Dornish Marriage (a favourite topic for me). He's applauded for completing Aegon's conquest of Westeros, except of course Dorne wasn't conquered: they remained all but independent, while gaining a disproportionate amount of influence in King's Landing.

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I think the blackfyres are bad ass. Some of them were good and some bad, just like any other family, but there story is really cool. The exile kings and their mercanary army. Just the reputation of the golden company is interesting. I definetly want to see more of the sellsword company in the next book.

And that's true that winners write history. Makes me wonder what really went on between daeron, daemon and their father. Obviously there's some details that the Targs would have wanted to leave out. Like if the dragon knight really was daeron father.

Also, daemon2 is hated on pretty bad, for his folly at whitewalls. I feel like he had the same problem as ned stark. He assumed the people around him were at least half as honorable as he was. And blood raven has 1000 eyes and 1, so that's pretty tough to avoid.

And now with aegon, I feel like people hate him because he's a "fake". But varys is right. Targ or BF, he will make a better king then most other kings in the story. I never really cared whether he was targ or BF, either way he's cool, but lately I almost hope that it does come out that he's BF, and then he takes the throne anyway.

But yeah, I'm with you on the blackfyre support. We gotta stick together lol. The Stan fans have us out numbered.

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Just because Daemon was delusional that he was his father's true heir doesn't mean that its sympathetic. Daemon was not the heir and that's that. He and his brother were definitely war mongering jerks, and the only sympathy I could muster for him would be for his children who became exiled because of him, and even then some of the descendants aren't particularly great either.

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I had never though of Daenna hating the Dornish and passing on her hostility to Daemon. Excellent point.



And obviously, those feelings had to be shared by many Westerosi. The Blackfyre Rebellion took place only 35 years after the Dornishmen had ambushed the royal retinue under the false pretense of a peace banner, and many people surely lost fathers, brothers and sons there. I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered that there was a strong correlation between the noble families that lost members at Dorne and the supporters of the Black Dragon.



Perhaps Daeron II erred when pushing the union with Dorne too much early. There was a big part of his bannermen that were not prepared for it. If he had waited some more time, I guess the union may have been less traumatic.





Just because Daemon was delusional that he was his father's true heir doesn't mean that its sympathetic.





Daemon was the legitimate king if:


-You believed that Daeron II was the Dragonknight son.


-You believed that a daughter came before a brother (and thus Viserys II had usurped Daena's throne)


-You believed that Aegon IV had any right to name a heir other than his firstborn son, and that giving Blackfyre to Daemon was meant to indicate this.



I still believe that Daeron II was the "true heir", but we should acknowledge that Daemon's pretense did not came out of the blue. He had a lot in his favour, and apparently he was favored by the singers and the commonfolk.






Daemon was not the heir and that's that. He and his brother were definitely war mongering jerks, and the only sympathy I could muster for him would be for his children who became exiled because of him, and even then some of the descendants aren't particularly great either.





It's worth noting that "the war" was started when Daeron II tried to arrest Daemon, with the only basis of Bloodraven's claim that he intended to proclaim himself king. Where Bloodraven's accusations true? Who knows, but if the Daemon had won they would be calling war-mongering the other side.



And "not great descendants" can also be found among the offspring of Daeron II: Aerion Brightflame, Aerys the Mad King or Viserys the Beggar come to mind.

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Daemon was the legitimate king if:

-You believed that Daeron II was the Dragonknight son.

-You believed that a daughter came before a brother (and thus Viserys II had usurped Daena's throne)

-You believed that Aegon IV had any right to name a heir other than his firstborn son, and that giving Blackfyre to Daemon was meant to indicate this.

I still believe that Daeron II was the "true heir", but we should acknowledge that Daemon's pretense did not came out of the blue. He had a lot in his favour, and apparently he was favored by the singers and the commonfolk.

I believe none that, so Daemon is still a warmongering twat.

1. No proof but rumors.

2. There are so many references to laws against this it should be clear by now.

3. He did, and he named Daeron. Blackfyre was not the realm. The throne was the realm and we have no other indication that Aegon wanted Daemon as heir. Daeron II was the heir.

Aerys II was also loved by some common folk long after his death, as were many monarchs who did not deserve it. Plus, why should singers and commonfolk truly know what it takes to be a king? That discussion can delve into a more democratic view, but the fact is that the Iron Throne was not a democracy and could not just become one because some people happened to like Daemon's flashy tournament knight style more than a guy who actually did clean up the realm before the war.

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While I don't agree with the Blackfyres I can also understand them and see their tragedy in a symphatic light, and I am very interested to learn more about them. And hopefully we'll soon learn more about them.


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The conflict of the Blackfyres is probably one of the biggest draw points to the ASOIAFistory for me; it was an entirely different conflict than the WOTFK with the factions of the realm so split. Almost all lords followed their rightful liege during the series, while the Blackfyre rebellion was incredibly chaotic for all as vassals defied their overlords left and right.



I'd like to see what would have happened had dragons emerged back onto the scene, or were still around when the schism happened.


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The Blackfyres are a very interesting and fun part of the story, to this day...


Do i find them great characters? yes... Do i respect their perseverance? yes...


I´m a Baratheon fanatic, so i´m not going to speak about their claim to the throne, if right or wrong... like many things, a matter of circumstance and difference of viewpoints between targs and fyres... Have at it, folks :thumbsup:


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I believe none that, so Daemon is still a warmongering twat.

It's fine that you don't believe. I don't believe it too. But we can't pretend that Daemon and his followers were lunatics with made up claims and grievances. They had some reasonable points.

That Daeron was the first to strike, it's a fact.

2. There are so many references to laws against this it should be clear by now.

If one thing is clear is that succession was not clear when dealing with female inheritance. After all, Daenerys was claiming the throne of Westeros when the closest male relative of the last Targaryen king was... Robert the Usurper. :P

The World Book specifically states that many believed that Daenna should inherit the throne after Baelor's death, and that no fuss was made about it only because "a decade of isolation in the Maidenvault had left Daena and her sisters without powerful allies, and memories of the woes that had befallen the realm when last a woman sat the Iron Throne were still fresh. Daena the Defiant was seen by many lords as being wild and unmanageable besides . . . and wanton as well, for a year earlier she had given birth to a bastard son she named Daemon, whose sire she steadfastly refused to name."

Plus, why should singers and commonfolk truly know what it takes to be a king? That discussion can delve into a more democratic view, but the fact is that the Iron Throne was not a democracy and could not just become one because some people happened to like Daemon's flashy tournament knight style more than a guy who actually did clean up the realm before the war.

There are precedents in Westeros of having the Lord of the Realm decide who should be the succesors in stiuations of conflicting claims. The Great Councils introduced by Jaehaerys can be easily argued to be a proof that the legitimacy of the kings doesn't emanate only from his heritage or his strength, but also from the will of his vassalls.

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I love these responses, you people are my lifeblood!



I think the biggest problem most people have with the Blackfyres is their opposition to Daeron II "The Good." After all, hasn't Martin's work proved over and over again how destructive and pointless war can be? So certainly, a lot of the fandom gives credit to Daeron for bringing the Dornish peacefully into the realm.



But the Dornish aren't a bunch of noble savages who were brutally oppressed. They've sacked Oldtown and Highgarden in the past, plus all the vicious fighting that occurred on both sides in Daeron I's conquest, and the subsequent invasions.



Imagine losing a father or a brother or a son to the war, then imagine the enemy not only come to terms with the throne peacefully, but then to have them win major rights and concessions that most lords of Westeros don't have. Daeron I may have "conquered" Dorne, but the Dornish basically won that war.



I think some people can be a bit unfair when they call the Blackfyres and their supporters simple "warmongers." They're definitely two sides to every story, and while I do really like Daeron II, the fact that he didn't do more to sooth relations between his lords and the lords of Dorne makes me less inclined to name him one of the great Targaryen kings.


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It does really sound like Daeron cared to much about bringing Dorne in to the realm and giving a middle finger to the rest of his ppl. And if the Yronwoods joined Daemon than it doesn't even sound like Dorne was happy with him.

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It does really sound like Daeron cared to much about bringing Dorne in to the realm and giving a middle finger to the rest of his ppl. And if the Yronwoods joined Daemon than it doesn't even sound like Dorne was happy with him.

House Yronwood just has a problem with House Martell.

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The Blackfyres were alright, but really they started the war because some of the lords were throwing tantrums that they couldn't go about fighting anymore.



Imagine if the Blackfyres had been around when Robert's Rebellion happened


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half the realm had a problem with Daeron

I'm just pointing out that the Yronwoods joining Daemon Blackfyre in the Rebellion isn't really grounds to say that Dorne was unhappy with Daeron the Good since they were the only Dornish House on Daemon's side and they're known to have an uneasy (at best) relationship with House Martell.

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I can't feel sorry for Daemon. Sure, dying trying to save his children was a bit sad, but he made the choice to heed Bittersteel and Quentyn's council, and he got bit in the ass for it.

I do however feel sorry for his children, who were exiled, and were raised all their lives to think that they were the true heirs to the throne. Daemon II seemed like a decent enough guy, and the small info we have on Aenys seems to suggest that he was also decennt. We have yet to see what type of people Haegon and Daemon II were.

On the Yronwood thing, I'm under the impression that Blackfyres guaranteed the Yronwoods an independent Dorne under their rule if they were to join the Blackfyres. I have a hard time believing that all of the Dornish were okay with joining the Iron Throne.

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