Sympathy for the Blackfyres

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I don't get using Dorne as a plus for Daeron II.

On Daeron II and Dorne: completing Aegon's "conquest" was a Targ family obsession. What did Dorne have that was so essential to Daeron's realm that incorporating Dorne is automatically a tick in his favour?

Dorne is poor, small, they do nice spicy food and have good horses and wine, but they are not a real threat nor are they a real prize. Other than the Targ obsession with having all the Seven Kingdoms.

Further, Dorne got an excellent deal out of this:

- nominal homage to the Iron Throne, but Dorne wasn't the one that started all the wars anyway so this is just a guarantee against future invasions into Dorne;

- Dornish law remains

- Dornish princes stay princes

- tax collectors don't come by often, with a wink and a nod

Dorne essentially gets to stay Dorne, with the massive benefit of being under the protection of the Iron Throne; and the occasional cost of having to field armies for the IT (like at the Trident).

So everybody else would have been like "WTF, what did WE get out of this deal?" Especially considering the history that the Reach and the Stormlands had with the Dornish.

Daeron "the Good" to people wanting to legitimise his obsession with Dorne (he did succeed there after all); Daeron "the Too Keen" on a more objective assessment.

[Nic G]

I don't get using Dorne as a plus for Daeron II.

On Daeron II and Dorne: completing Aegon's "conquest" was a Targ family obsession. What did Dorne have that was so essential to Daeron's realm that incorporating Dorne is automatically a tick in his favour?

Dorne is poor, small, they do nice spicy food and have good horses and wine, but they are not a real threat nor are they a real prize. Other than the Targ obsession with having all the Seven Kingdoms.

Further, Dorne got an excellent deal out of this:

- nominal homage to the Iron Throne, but Dorne wasn't the one that started all the wars anyway so this is just a guarantee against future invasions into Dorne;

- Dornish law remains

- Dornish princes stay princes

- tax collectors don't come by often, with a wink and a nod

Dorne essentially gets to stay Dorne, with the massive benefit of being under the protection of the Iron Throne; and the occasional cost of having to field armies for the IT (like at the Trident).

So everybody else would have been like "WTF, what did WE get out of this deal?" Especially considering the history that the Reach and the Stormlands had with the Dornish.

Daeron "the Good" to people wanting to legitimise his obsession with Dorne (he did succeed there after all); Daeron "the Too Keen" on a more objective assessment.

100% agree I think people have a hard time talking bad about him just because he is called "the good" and was drone really worth it if it was a large contributing factor to the up coming five rebellions.

I also don't like that he did the whole "baelor your work is done thing" when it was Aegon I who started the conquest of westeros and his name sake the Young Dragon that conquered dorne before him. And he goes and honors baelor the befuddled

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

100% agree I think people have a hard time talking bad about him just because he is called "the good" and was drone really worth it if it was a large contributing factor to the up coming five rebellions.

I also don't like that he did the whole "baelor your work is done thing" when it was Aegon I who started the conquest of westeros and his name sake the Young Dragon that conquered dorne before him. And he goes and honors baelor the befuddled

All five rebellions because of Dorne? What you smoking?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

And he goes and honors baelor the befuddled

I can imagine how the Dornish would have reacted to any mention of Aegon or Daeron I - both of whom led bloody invasions against Dorne. Baelor was far more favourable in his treatment of Dorne.

Still, considering what an embarrassment Baelor was for the realm, it's really strange Daeron II is identifying himself with Baelor. Almost like a nod to the Dornish that their sensitivities are more important to him than the sensitivities of his kingdoms (as he would later be accused of). Like "I'll embarrass myself/the other kingdoms, by talking about Baelor, and that will give some satisfaction to the Dornish." He may have only been flattering the Dornish to get them where he wanted them, but it was not a great look for him at all regardless.

He may have just been identifying more strongly with Baelor's peace-making than with Aegon's and Daeron I's warring. But again it's very strange to take the active extra step of claiming to be completing Baelor's work...

[Nic G]

All five rebellions because of Dorne? What you smoking?

A lot of ppl contribute the blackfyre rebellion to drone bieng favored above others. The first black fire rebellion was a big factor in the other 4 I'd say. A=B, B=C so A=C not so direct but a major part

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

I don't get using Dorne as a plus for Daeron II.

On Daeron II and Dorne: completing Aegon's "conquest" was a Targ family obsession. What did Dorne have that was so essential to Daeron's realm that incorporating Dorne is automatically a tick in his favour?

Dorne is poor, small, they do nice spicy food and have good horses and wine, but they are not a real threat nor are they a real prize. Other than the Targ obsession with having all the Seven Kingdoms.

Further, Dorne got an excellent deal out of this:

- nominal homage to the Iron Throne, but Dorne wasn't the one that started all the wars anyway so this is just a guarantee against future invasions into Dorne;

- Dornish law remains

- Dornish princes stay princes

- tax collectors don't come by often, with a wink and a nod

Dorne essentially gets to stay Dorne, with the massive benefit of being under the protection of the Iron Throne; and the occasional cost of having to field armies for the IT (like at the Trident).

So everybody else would have been like "WTF, what did WE get out of this deal?" Especially considering the history that the Reach and the Stormlands had with the Dornish.

Daeron "the Good" to people wanting to legitimise his obsession with Dorne (he did succeed there after all); Daeron "the Too Keen" on a more objective assessment.

I've always been really confused as the obsession with Dorne as well. My guess is that Daeron I needed a way to keep the lords of Westeros behind him. The last dragon died in 153 (I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong) which meant that the hallmark of Targaryen power was gone. A war with the Dornish would be a good way to distract potentially rebellious lords. Sorta like how Henry V helped to legitimize his family's control over the English monarchy with a renewed war against France.

And, after Daeron II made his peace, lo and behold its not long before the lords of Westeros are up in arms against him.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

A lot of ppl contribute the blackfyre rebellion to drone bieng favored above others. The first black fire rebellion was a big factor in the other 4 I'd say. A=B, B=C so A=C not so direct but a major part

Not really, it doesn't seem as if the later claimants were fighting to remove Dornish influence from court as much as Daemon I was.

They were mainly fighting for themselves

[walkingWITHcersei]

Alright, as I am on a bit of a Blackfyre kick, I can't help but start up another topic in defense of those rebellious bastards, the Blackfyres. Mostly what I'm looking for are fellow fans who can't help but love the Blackfyres and all their tragic rebellions.

If you think they're just a bunch of warmongering failures, then fine. Whatever dude.

But if you're like me, and you find a certain tragic beauty in the fight for Westeros, and for the Blackfyres in particular, then look no further for you have found a safe haven!

This thread is for anyone who loves them some Blackfyres, Daemon and his sons as well as that angry bastard Bracken, Bittersteel!

If you think that they weren't losers, if you like the forces that shaped them and are curious to see their history and what future role they might play, then please post here!

As for myself, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for Daemon Blackfyre. Unlike Daeron, he grew up with his father's support. His mother probably instilled a hatred of the Dornish from an early age, since it was her brother Daeron I who was killed treacherously by the Dornish. He saw himself as the true king, a conquering hero, and must have had some charisma to inspire a rebellion that almost changed the shape of history. He probably saw himself as his father's true heir, and I can't help but feel bad for how it all turned out.

I've already posted about my love for Bittersteel, but really. I love the fact that he founded this crazy awesome Mercenary company that still exists to this day. He's certainly no more petty and violent then Bloodraven, and I love the dynamic between the two half brothers.

All in all, love em or hate em, the Blackfyres certainly add a nice flavor to the series and I'd love to hear from other Blackfyre fans.

You know what? I would have totally agreed with u 6 months ago. I also was 70% sure Dareon II was the DK's son, Danerys was forced into a marriage she didn't want, and that Daemon BF was meant to inherit the IT. Then I read tWoiaF and unless the Maesters are misleading us, which I've come to believe is always a possibility based on their track record, it's plain to me that Daemon was never meant to inherit, Dareon absolutely was true born, Dany had nothing to do with this, and Bittersteel & Fireball (mostly Bittersteel) manipulated Daemon for their own selfish reasons. It sounds like they poured out continuous bs for the better part of a decade until Daemon, who parallels Robert so closely that we can make a few general assumptions about his personality based off our knowledge of Roberts, made a very stupid move. Dareon was good to him, better than anyone else would have been, and the rebellion was treason in it's purist form. Not bc of misrule, or some legitimate reason, but purely to seize more power. That being said I do pity the sons that followed. Bittersteel kept this going to the tune of three serious attempts, brainwashing the children to incorrectly believe they were wronged causing two more attempts by the descendants. Bittersteel single handedly traded a good life for the entire house for generations of bloodshed ending in the male line being extinguished. Think of how powerful House Blackfyre would be now. Located close to the center of power in Westeros. They'd very likely have married back into the Targ family, and coupled with their Targ looks they'd be as powerful as any of the current great houses. It's not even impossible to postulate a BF king married to a Targ queen one day if things worked out the right way. All of this was stolen from them by one bad decision. Once Daemon died the rest of the kids never stood a chance. Unlike their dad they weren't greedy. They were raised to believe they were wronged and with BS (prefect initials for him) as their father figure they were doomed the moment they were conceived. I'm sure BS had cause for complaint. He was certainly treated by the Targs as the least of the Great Bastards, but nothing was done to him to even begin to justify the lives lost and the futures stolen by this jerk. His head should have been removed not sent to the wall.

Side note: anyone here read the Dune series? Doesn't the downfall of House BF seem similar to the downfall of the Harkonnens after the Butlerian Jihad? Only difference is the Harkes were patient and eventually recovered what they'd lost but of course they didn't have BS telling them what to do either. Seriously what an ass.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I've always been really confused as the obsession with Dorne as well. My guess is that Daeron I needed a way to keep the lords of Westeros behind him. The last dragon died in 153 (I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong) which meant that the hallmark of Targaryen power was gone. A war with the Dornish would be a good way to distract potentially rebellious lords. Sorta like how Henry V helped to legitimize his family's control over the English monarchy with a renewed war against France.

And, after Daeron II made his peace, lo and behold its not long before the lords of Westeros are up in arms against him.

Well the maesters are the maesters, so their interpretation is always suspect. But Yandel does give us some good hints about the underlying issue - the main being that the lords whose ancestors made their family names fighting the Dornish now had to compete with the Dornish for influence at court. That's obviously one side of the problem, compounded by the fact that as you said there was suddenly no one else in Westeros left to go to war with.

I guess we should cut Daeron II a break based on the fact that he had a lot of fixing to do after the reign of his father (?) Aegon the Unworthy. So it's not like Daeron inherited a realm in great shape - he wanted a way to assert himself as a very different type of ruler. Bringing Dorne into the fold may have seemed like a good way to do that, but then I go back to my previous post: (1) his lords great and small didn't actually want Dorne at the table; and (2) Dorne got too sweet of a deal out of it.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

But I wonder how much difference any of that would have made had it not been for Bittersteel.

(1) Bloodraven remained at court and the Blackwoods remained in favour even after Missy was replaced as Aegon IV's mistress.

(2) not only did Missy squeeze out BS's mother, but BS himself was sent to Stone Hedge.

(3) in BS's mind, this would have been just another slight in the ongoing Blackwood/Bracken saga.

(4) BS then forms an anti-BR clique, but things really take off when they merge with the anti-Daeron clique;

(5) BS then convinces Daemon BF to rebel, but the background above is why it took 8 years for this to happen (the different strains of dissatisfaction needed time to merge into a clear Blackfyre faction)

(6) BS is the brother that BR hated, because he used Daemon BF (the brother that BR loved) as a pawn to take revenge against the Blackwoods.

I think Daemon BF is himself a tragic character. He clearly seemed to have everything a good king should have, other than a clear claim. Over the course of at least 8 years, he was manipulated into rebelling by those around him, all of whom had motivations that had nothing to do with Daemon's claim.

[The silver dragon]

You know what? I would have totally agreed with u 6 months ago. I also was 70% sure Dareon II was the DK's son, Danerys was forced into a marriage she didn't want, and that Daemon BF was meant to inherit the IT. Then I read tWoiaF and unless the Maesters are misleading us, which I've come to believe is always a possibility based on their track record, it's plain to me that Daemon was never meant to inherit, Dareon absolutely was true born, Dany had nothing to do with this, and Bittersteel & Fireball (mostly Bittersteel) manipulated Daemon for their own selfish reasons. It sounds like they poured out continuous bs for the better part of a decade until Daemon, who parallels Robert so closely that we can make a few general assumptions about his personality based off our knowledge of Roberts, made a very stupid move. Dareon was good to him, better than anyone else would have been, and the rebellion was treason in it's purist form. Not bc of misrule, or some legitimate reason, but purely to seize more power. That being said I do pity the sons that followed. Bittersteel kept this going to the tune of the serious attempts, brainwashing the children to incorrectly believe they were wronged causing two more attempts by the descendants. Bittersteel single handedly traded a good life for the entire house for generations of bloodshed ending in the male line being extinguished. Think of how powerful House Blackfyre would be now. Located close to the center of power in Westeros. They'd very likely have married back into the Targ family, and coupled with their Targ looks they'd be as powerful as any of the current great houses. It's not even impossible to postulate a BF king married to a Targ queen one day if things worked out the right way. All of this was stolen from them by one bad decision. Once Daemon died the rest of the kids never stood a chance. Unlike their dad they weren't greedy. They were raised to believe they were wronged and with BS (prefect initials for him) as their father figure they were doomed the moment they were conceived. I'm sure BS had cause for complaint. He was certainly treated by the Targs as the least of the Great Bastards, but nothing was done to him to even begin to justify the lives lost and the futures stolen by this jerk. His head should have been removed not sent to the wall.

Side note: anyone here read the Dune series? Doesn't the downfall of House BF seem similar to the downfall of the Harkonnens after the Butlerian Jihad? Only difference is the Harkes were patient and eventually recovered what they'd lost but of course they didn't have BS telling them what to do either. Seriously what an ass.

1.) one daemon comes from the elder female line, and under andal law a sister comes before an uncle. and the only reason Viserys took the throne was because he held the realm due to being hand of the king. daemon being the son of daena technically had the better claim than daeron.

2.) good enough to send out an arrest warrant for him, at the behest and alleged allegations of blood raven. someone who we cannot say is unbiased towards blackfyre's.

3.) the said arrest attempt is probably a form of misrules.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

You know what? I would have totally agreed with u 6 months ago. I also was 70% sure Dareon II was the DK's son, Danerys was forced into a marriage she didn't want, and that Daemon BF was meant to inherit the IT. Then I read tWoiaF and unless the Maesters are misleading us, which I've come to believe is always a possibility based on their track record, it's plain to me that Daemon was never meant to inherit, Dareon absolutely was true born, Dany had nothing to do with this, and Bittersteel & Fireball (mostly Bittersteel) manipulated Daemon for their own selfish reasons. It sounds like they poured out continuous bs for the better part of a decade until Daemon, who parallels Robert so closely that we can make a few general assumptions about his personality based off our knowledge of Roberts, made a very stupid move. Dareon was good to him, better than anyone else would have been, and the rebellion was treason in it's purist form. Not bc of misrule, or some legitimate reason, but purely to seize more power. That being said I do pity the sons that followed. Bittersteel kept this going to the tune of the serious attempts, brainwashing the children to incorrectly believe they were wronged causing two more attempts by the descendants. Bittersteel single handedly traded a good life for the entire house for generations of bloodshed ending in the male line being extinguished. Think of how powerful House Blackfyre would be now. Located close to the center of power in Westeros. They'd very likely have married back into the Targ family, and coupled with their Targ looks they'd be as powerful as any of the current great houses. It's not even impossible to postulate a BF king married to a Targ queen one day if things worked out the right way. All of this was stolen from them by one bad decision. Once Daemon died the rest of the kids never stood a chance. Unlike their dad they weren't greedy. They were raised to believe they were wronged and with BS (prefect initials for him) as their father figure they were doomed the moment they were conceived. I'm sure BS had cause for complaint. He was certainly treated by the Targs as the least of the Great Bastards, but nothing was done to him to even begin to justify the lives lost and the futures stolen by this jerk. His head should have been removed not sent to the wall.

Side note: anyone here read the Dune series? Doesn't the downfall of House BF seem similar to the downfall of the Harkonnens after the Butlerian Jihad? Only difference is the Harkes were patient and eventually recovered what they'd lost but of course they didn't have BS telling them what to do either. Seriously what an ass.

I would like to say that I like Daeron II a lot, and I don't think that using peaceful means to bring Dorne into the fold was a bad thing. And certainly he was Aegon IV's son. If he wasn't, Aegon would have definitely disinherited him. I don't think he was horrid to Daemon, and I would agree that Bittersteel bears a certain culpability for starting the first war, along with Bloodraven who was pushing for war but on the Targ side.

However, Bittersteel watched his half-brother and cousins die on the field of battle at redgrass field directly due to Bloodraven. I think Bittersteel's motivations for continuing the war had more to do with that then anything else. And it's interesting that Bittersteel himself didn't attempt another invasion until 219, a whole decade after Daeron II's death. During that rebellion, Haegon Blackfyre was murdered after he surrendered. For the Blackfyres, that would have been like their red wedding. So I think the reasons that the rebellions continued had more to do with personal reasons. And I genuinely believe that Bittersteel genuinely believed that Daemon and his sons were the rightful heirs.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

I would like to say that I like Daeron II a lot, and I don't think that using peaceful means to bring Dorne into the fold was a bad thing. And certainly he was Aegon IV's son. If he wasn't, Aegon would have definitely disinherited him. I don't think he was horrid to Daemon, and I would agree that Bittersteel bears a certain culpability for starting the first war, along with Bloodraven who was pushing for war but on the Targ side.

However, Bittersteel watched his half-brother and cousins die on the field of battle at redgrass field directly due to Bloodraven. I think Bittersteel's motivations for continuing the war had more to do with that then anything else. And it's interesting that Bittersteel himself didn't attempt another invasion until 219, a whole decade after Daeron II's death. During that rebellion, Haegon Blackfyre was murdered after he surrendered. For the Blackfyres, that would have been like their red wedding. So I think the reasons that the rebellions continued had more to do with personal reasons. And I genuinely believe that Bittersteel genuinely believed that Daemon and his sons were the rightful heirs.

It is interesting to note that Bittersteel might have also contributed to their deaths, because of his poisonous whispering

[walkingWITHcersei]

It is interesting to note that Bittersteel might have also contributed to their deaths, because of his poisonous whispering

It is interesting to note that Bittersteel might have also contributed to their deaths, because of his poisonous whispering

He did allot more than contribute to their deaths. Within the limits of our knowledge the rebellion appears to be the work of BS. Without BS I doubt it ever would have happened at all, and quite possibly wouldn't have even thought of at all.

The wild card of course is BR. Despite his hatred for BS I don't think BR would have gone to such great lengths if it wasn't true. BS was no threat to his power. If it had been BR whose family was shunned at court then sure he'd lie to take down BS, he's certainly capable of that, but BR was welcome in KL, and BR got the girl so there's no reason to lie he already won his battle with BS. Of course there is another less obvious reason why BR would lie knowing what it would cause. If BR thought instigating the rebellion would somehow effect the "song" element, if something he read in a scroll, or saw in a vision required the rebellion to happen then absolutely BR would lie. I think his "crime", arrest, and subsequent banishment to the Wall was part of his plan to eventually become a tree (I also think Aegon was in on it but that's another topic entirely). I don't think instigating the rebellion was part of a larger plan and I don't think BR lied about the BF treason, but it's a def possibility until proven otherwise.

As to the comments above about Viserys and Daemon I don't think Daemon ever believed be was cheated out of the throne by Viserys. First of all he was a bastard until Aegon IV legitimized him long after the death of Viserys. I'm not sure he was even acknowledged while Viserys was still alive. The Great Council right or wrong put all female claimants behind any males a century beforehand. Saying Daemon was bitter towards or screwed by Viserys just doesn't seem reasonable to assume. Two other men sat the IT between Viserys and Daemon so it'd be Daeron he'd have a grudge against not Viserys. Not to mention Daemon would have been a small child if he was made king over Viserys so I don't think anyone Daemon included felt Viserys stole his throne. If I'm wrong then egg on my face show me the text that proves it and I'll graciously admit I was wrong.

[Magnar of Skagos]

I really like the Blackfyres, and Maelys in particular. If that isn't obvious enough lol.

I think that besides all the warmaking, they have a sort of tragic story, in that they feel like they have been cheated out of the best position in the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms, even though Aegon the Unworthy legitimized Daemon and gave him the Targaryen ancestral sword. I'd be pretty pissed too if that didn't make me king.

[bittersteelsgold]

Great thread!

We will probably never know whether Daeron was or wasnt't DK's son or Aegon IV's and I feel that's the exact same situation Argon was in. I think he was unsure, but couldn't prove it, and at that point in his life was more worried about his outrageous lifestyle, and figured someone else would fix the problem, as with every other problem. He gave the sword to Daemon, not so much as a passing of command, but more because he definitely knew that Daemon was his true born son. Aegon was unworthy for many more reasons than his lechery, as his reing went on he got lazier and less involved. As for Bloodraven and Bittersteel, they went to work from their.

[Lord Varys]

Daemon Blackfyre was simply a traitorous and unsuccessful rebel. It is as simple as that. Daeron II was the crowned and anointed King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Daemon was rebelling against him. The Lords backing him had no legal right to oppose the Iron Throne's contract with Dorne, either.

I could have some sympathy for Daemon if it was not so evident that he was essentially manipulated into the the whole rebellion thing, and not exactly the smartest guy on earth. People that allow themselves to be led around by others aren't exactly people I find all that sympathetic. Not to mention the fact that Daeron II was apparently very kind and generous to the Great Bastards, especially Daemon. Considering that Daena's son was only fourteen years old upon Daeron's ascension Daeron II could have done pretty much anything with the boy - he could have forced him to take the Black, he could have given him to the Faith or the Citadel, he could have exiled him, he could have forbidden him to marry anyone etc. Instead he went through with the Rohanne match and even granted Daemon some land.

Daemon the Younger clearly was a nice guy, but also not really fit to become a good king - although possibly above average considering that he was actually willing to take charge and listen when confronted with confusing situations.

[Olligarchy]

Well the Blackfyres stand on my second favoured spot in House ranking! Daemon is just too much of a badass to not like and there is a certain element of heroism in those that stood with him on the Redgrass Field... just read the Dunk&Egg novels and you'll find that the 'Targaryen' side weren't exactly right about everything or even heroic for that matter!

[Lord Varys]

Another thing I don't like the Blackfyres for is the fact that Bittersteel essentially abandoned Daemon the Younger at Whitewalls. He even witheld his father's sword from him despite the fact that Daemon II should have inherited it after the Redgrass Field.

No idea what sort of person Haegon is going to be. He could either be another decent fellow misled by Bittersteel or quite the opposite - an Aerion-type Blackfyre. But I imagine he was at least a decent warrior despite the fact that he was eventually overpowered/defeated and forced to yield. Aenys Blackfyre appears to be somewhat naive but we might be mistaken there. I and others have suggested that he may have been a charismatic orator and actually had a chance of rallying the lords to the Blackfyre cause either at the Great Council or during another Blackfyre rebellion - which would be the reason why Bloodraven allowed him to come and decided to kill him.

Just killing another Blackfyre would not be all that important if there was not a decent chance that the Blackfyre loyalists would use the succession crisis caused by Maekar's sudden death as opportunity to launch another rebellion. The Westerlands section really enforces the fact that the Realm was close to a civil war between two or more Targaryen claimants (Aerion's faction backing Maegor against Egg's supporters).

[cgf]

Daemon Blackfyre does seem to be the most Aegon the conqueror like Targ we've been told about. And given that his father, the king, was putting in so much work to discredit his heir so that Daemon could succeed him, it's hard to hold his ambition against him. Especially when it still took years of councellors coaxing him. So he's hard not to like for me.

Plus there's something about bittersteel's bitterness and lack of grace that is oddly charming, in my head I always picture him acting like Stannis without the humor. Which is weirdly amusing. Particular now that Bloodraven's treachery has been revealed.