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Tyrell_like_Squirrel

Sympathy for the Blackfyres

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Another thing I don't like the Blackfyres for is the fact that Bittersteel essentially abandoned Daemon the Younger at Whitewalls. He even witheld his father's sword from him despite the fact that Daemon II should have inherited it after the Redgrass Field.

No idea what sort of person Haegon is going to be. He could either be another decent fellow misled by Bittersteel or quite the opposite - an Aerion-type Blackfyre. But I imagine he was at least a decent warrior despite the fact that he was eventually overpowered/defeated and forced to yield. Aenys Blackfyre appears to be somewhat naive but we might be mistaken there. I and others have suggested that he may have been a charismatic orator and actually had a chance of rallying the lords to the Blackfyre cause either at the Great Council or during another Blackfyre rebellion - which would be the reason why Bloodraven allowed him to come and decided to kill him.

Just killing another Blackfyre would not be all that important if there was not a decent chance that the Blackfyre loyalists would use the succession crisis caused by Maekar's sudden death as opportunity to launch another rebellion. The Westerlands section really enforces the fact that the Realm was close to a civil war between two or more Targaryen claimants (Aerion's faction backing Maegor against Egg's supporters).

I've been very critical of BS, but it's a real stretch to say he abandoned Daemon II. BS never gave him support, in fact it sounds like he told him not to go to Westeros. Daemon knew BS and the GC wouldn't have his back and without a promise of support there couldn't be a betrayal. Daemon II put his faith in his dragon dreams not BS. You can argue that withholding the sword was a type of betrayal, but Daemon knew before setting foot in Westeros that he wouldn't have BF, and he chose to proceed with his foolish plan anyhow. We don't know what promises if any BS made to Daemon I so we can't say for sure he was wrong to withhold BF from Daemon II. As much as I hate him I think BS gets a pass on this one.

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I've been very critical of BS, but it's a real stretch to say he abandoned Daemon II. BS never gave him support, in fact it sounds like he told him not to go to Westeros. Daemon knew BS and the GC wouldn't have his back and without a promise of support there couldn't be a betrayal. Daemon II put his faith in his dragon dreams not BS. You can argue that withholding the sword was a type of betrayal, but Daemon knew before setting foot in Westeros that he wouldn't have BF, and he chose to proceed with his foolish plan anyhow. We don't know what promises if any BS made to Daemon I so we can't say for sure he was wrong to withhold BF from Daemon II. As much as I hate him I think BS gets a pass on this one.

This.

What I got out of the Mystery Knight in regards to DBF3 was that BS didn't view him as worthy as his younger brother. He may have appeared good enough in MK, but that's all we see of him. Sure in the snapshot of that story he seems honorable, but it also looks like he went against BS's advice, and Ran into a poor plan. IMHO if he hadn't been caught at White Walls by D&E and BR, his rebellion would have been crushed. The houses involved wouldn't have been strong enough to withstand the response from the IT. I look at his journey to WW as a childish act in the sense he disregarded BS and ran to a group of selfish lords, some of whom turned their cloaks more than once. Because of that BS probably would not have bothered crossing the narrow sea for a doomed Daemon 3 backed by Butterwell regardless of the outcome of White Walls. BS wasn't ready yet, the GC weren't ready yet, and he found a much more suitable heir in Haegon, it was a waste of his time.

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This just circles back to BS being the mastermind and the Blackfyres just a tool for him. What business does he have deciding who gets the sword and who doesn't? He swore allegiance to Daemon I as his king, meaning Daemon the Younger was his rightful king after the Redgrass Filed. Both BS and his Golden Company should have been behind the Second BF Rebellion.

BS's reasons (and whether they were valid concerns) are secondary. He's clearly the one calling the shots, which is the biggest takeaway from the Second Rebellion.

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I kinda think BS didn't support Daemon II because of his sexuality(along with the other things mentioned), when BS is all about continuing the Blackfyre line and Daemon not having "producing an heir" on his list of priorities causes some problems.

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Daemon 2 died on the red grass field. Daemon 3/John the Fiddler was Daemon's grandson. BS may have eventually supported Daemon 3, but all we know is he advised him to not go to White Walls, so he disguised himself as The Fiddler and went without BS's leave. Even if BS would have eventually supported his claim, there would have been nothing BS could have done to save him, because of his folly. There were also two more grandsons, and great grandsons of Daemon I. Its not a case of BS using the BFs as tools, but cause and effect of misguided decisions on Daemon 3s part. BS and the GC weren't ready when Daemon 3 went to white walls, they were still reeling from the 2nd BF rebellion. It would be a few more years until they were. A while after Daemon 3 died in the black cells, BS and the GC were ready, and Haegon was ready.

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There wasn't a Golden Company in 211 AC when Daemon II staged the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. The company was founded in 212 AC most likely in the wake of the crushing defeat the Blackfyre cause suffered at Whitewalls.



Bittersteel did not only abandon Daemon II but also the cause of House Blackfyre and all the remaining Blackfyre loyalists back in Westeros. We learn in TMK that there are quite a number of Blackfyre loyalists and disgruntled lords assembled at Whitewalls. Bittersteel's absence and the fact that he withheld Blackfyre from Daemon the Younger made the plan much more difficult and disabled Daemon's ability to fully tap into the potential of Blackfyre loyalists back in Westeros. We also learn that the Great Spring Sickness killed a lot of Blackfyre hostages in Westeros which freed the hands of the Blackfyre loyalists that were not in Westeros. Thus abandoned Bittersteel both his king as well as his allies and friends in Westeros.



Not to mention that Aenys Blackfyre turned against Bittersteel and Haegon's son Daemon III Blackfyre later on in 233 AC when he tried to claim the Iron Throne at the Great Council. Daemon III was the crowned Blackfyre king, not Aenys Blackfyre.


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Them Blackfyres are Targaryens in blood and I can't just bring myself to hate them too much. Daemon wasn't some savage anyway, and his good heart led to his death at the Redgrass Field.

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Daemon 2 died on the red grass field. Daemon 3/John the Fiddler was Daemon's grandson. BS may have eventually supported Daemon 3, but all we know is he advised him to not go to White Walls, so he disguised himself as The Fiddler and went without BS's leave. Even if BS would have eventually supported his claim, there would have been nothing BS could have done to save him, because of his folly. There were also two more grandsons, and great grandsons of Daemon I. Its not a case of BS using the BFs as tools, but cause and effect of misguided decisions on Daemon 3s part. BS and the GC weren't ready when Daemon 3 went to white walls, they were still reeling from the 2nd BF rebellion. It would be a few more years until they were. A while after Daemon 3 died in the black cells, BS and the GC were ready, and Haegon was ready.

Daemon II did not die on Redgrass field, he escaped with his siblings to Tyrosh., his elder brothers Aegon and Aemon died on redgrass field.

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There wasn't a Golden Company in 211 AC when Daemon II staged the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. The company was founded in 212 AC most likely in the wake of the crushing defeat the Blackfyre cause suffered at Whitewalls.

Bittersteel did not only abandon Daemon II but also the cause of House Blackfyre and all the remaining Blackfyre loyalists back in Westeros. We learn in TMK that there are quite a number of Blackfyre loyalists and disgruntled lords assembled at Whitewalls. Bittersteel's absence and the fact that he withheld Blackfyre from Daemon the Younger made the plan much more difficult and disabled Daemon's ability to fully tap into the potential of Blackfyre loyalists back in Westeros. We also learn that the Great Spring Sickness killed a lot of Blackfyre hostages in Westeros which freed the hands of the Blackfyre loyalists that were not in Westeros. Thus abandoned Bittersteel both his king as well as his allies and friends in Westeros.

Not to mention that Aenys Blackfyre turned against Bittersteel and Haegon's son Daemon III Blackfyre later on in 233 AC when he tried to claim the Iron Throne at the Great Council. Daemon III was the crowned Blackfyre king, not Aenys Blackfyre.

I think it was pretty obvious from the D&E story that Daemon II wasn't much of a man, all of his "victories" at the tourney were rigged. Similar to Renly Baratheon, he depends a lot on flash and panache and not an actual political basis.

Aegor Rivers AKA Bittersteel had a plan to put the Blackfyres on the throne, it came to fruition in 219. Most likely he was unimpressed with Daemon II's silly dreams and unimpressive abilities. Hopefully we'll get a D&E story about the third rebellion, until its hard to fully understand Bittersteel's motivations and plans. Most likely he was working out the foundations for the Golden Company, a professional army basically dedicated to Blackfyre military ambitions. Far more of a threat then dreams and a tourney.

Bitterteel didn't "abondon" anyone. Lord Peake and Daemon II were just too impatient. Perhaps if they had been less foolhardy, the continental Blackfyre loyalists could have laid low and waited for the third rebellion. Maybe they could have all won. Idk, its one of those "what ifs" of history.

And I love how this theory is dedicated SPECIFICALLY to Blackfyre love, and you gotta come in and poo poo over our black dragon party. There's plenty of Blackfyre haters out there with their own threads. Why not go there?

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Oh, I actually do like Daemon II. And Bittersteel isn't a Blackfyre, or is he? Some of Daemon's victories were rigged, but I doubt all of them were. He wasn't up to the task to defeat the better tourney knights but I'd also not assume that he was complete amateur. For instance, even Dunk realizes that Prince Valarr was at best an average lance yet he doesn't say the same about John the Fiddler.



And I actually find that Bittersteel harmed the Blackfyre cause by either not dissuading Peake and Daemon II from their plans or by not participating in them. His presence at Whitewalls as well as Blackfyre itself could have made some difference. Sure, it most likely would not have been enough, but you really get the impression that the Second Blackfyre Rebellion also failed because the Blackfyre loyalists were not fully committed to the whole thing - even those who were at Whitewalls.



If you check TWoIaF it is essentially confirmed that Bittersteel may not have backed Daemon II because of his sexual preferences as well as his taste for the finer things in life - but neither is a reason to abandon your true king.



Oh, and Renly was a capable tourney knight and warrior in his own right. Not as good as Loras but still very capable and successful.


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Yeah bitter steel clearly had his own plan for power, and it was better then daemon2 plan. He established a strong army that would prove to be a threat for years and years to come.but I don't think he intentionally abandoned daemon2. It could just as easily be said that daemon2 went to westeros without bittersteel. And I personnally believe that they lost blackfyre on the red grass field.

Daemon blackfyre may not be perfect, but few characters in this story are great. The fact is he was a bad ass. His whole story is cool. The fact is if your going to be a fan of just the 100% morally good characters, then your going to hate most of them. Maybe daeron was a better guy then daemon, but if you compare family to family, the blackfyres aren't much worse then the targs.

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Yeah bitter steel clearly had his own plan for power, and it was better then daemon2 plan. He established a strong army that would prove to be a threat for years and years to come.but I don't think he intentionally abandoned daemon2. It could just as easily be said that daemon2 went to westeros without bittersteel. And I personnally believe that they lost blackfyre on the red grass field.

Daemon blackfyre may not be perfect, but few characters in this story are great. The fact is he was a bad ass. His whole story is cool. The fact is if your going to be a fan of just the 100% morally good characters, then your going to hate most of them. Maybe daeron was a better guy then daemon, but if you compare family to family, the blackfyres aren't much worse then the targs.

You are aware Bittersteel picked up Blackfyre when he fled from redgrass right?

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We don't yet know how big a threat the Third Blackfyre Rebellion actually was. I hope it was a close thing there, else the Blackfyres really look like fools rather than a serious threat to the Targaryen dynasty. The Second Rebellion, the Fourth, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings wasn't a real threat to Targaryen rule.



But even the Third Rebellion ended in a crushing defeat with Haegon dead and Bittersteel taken.


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We don't yet know how big a threat the Third Blackfyre Rebellion actually was. I hope it was a close thing there, else the Blackfyres really look like fools rather than a serious threat to the Targaryen dynasty. The Second Rebellion, the Fourth, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings wasn't a real threat to Targaryen rule.

But even the Third Rebellion ended in a crushing defeat with Haegon dead and Bittersteel taken.

I agree that they never seemed to be much of a threat, although with Bloodraven managing things up to the reign of Aegon V, it's maybe not that surprising that their threat was always contained (because it may have been foreseen).

The ability of the Blackfyres to command support even after repeated failures is also a very useful bit of info in understanding the underlying causes. If it were all just about Daemon Blackfyre the man, then his death would have ended the thing. Feelings seem to run deeper than that.

Of course it could just be a comment on why rebellions tend to keep coming back: the second rebellion starts because the rebellious lords feel slighted by the terms imposed on them when they lost their initial rebellion - they wait a few years, nurse their grievances, and rebel again. Then a third time, and so on. The more it happens, the less it's about the initial causes (Osgrey's spiel about how Daemon BF was the "better man") and more about avenging injuries and slights (think all the lords at Whitewall, Peake in particular).

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Interesting topic.


Since I tend to believe "Aegon" is in fact a Blackfyre by his mother, (Serra), Illyrio his father, and Varys, Serras brother and also a Blackfyre, I think while I wouldn't use the term "sympathetic," I would say that the roads they have all walked would have to be humilating for them.



Rather like Viserys and Dany. To know what bloodline you come from, but to ultimately have to do whatever it takes to survive, mummery, prostitution, sell sword, living poverty and in the shadows while your legitimate cousins sit the throne, (and not doing a very good job of it), I think is sad.


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Lord_Peppsi_Cups,



well, George gave the impression that a crisis like the Blackfyre Rebellions may not have occurred during the dragon age, or if it did, it would have ended much more quickly. He most likely refers to the fact there that the Targaryens controlled access to the dragons and did not give dragon eggs to bastards.



As to the reasons why the lords continued to support the Blackfyres:



Many seem to be simply the usual suspects - the Sunderlands, Peakes, Yronwoods etc.- who hoped backing the other dragon would give them what they desired for themselves. But as a general rule it seems that the Blackfyre threat as a whole continuously wore down the power and authority of the Iron Throne and created a climate of continuous warfare and rebellion. From BR I we have the Greyjoy raidings, BF II, BF III, the Peake Uprising, BF IV, and the various rebellions throughout the reign of Aegon V eventually culminating in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Aerys and Tywin stabilized the Realm again but the whole 'rebellion against the Iron Throne' pattern eventually led to Robert's Rebellion.


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Lord_Peppsi_Cups,

well, George gave the impression that a crisis like the Blackfyre Rebellions may not have occurred during the dragon age, or if it did, it would have ended much more quickly. He most likely refers to the fact there that the Targaryens controlled access to the dragons and did not give dragon eggs to bastards.

As to the reasons why the lords continued to support the Blackfyres:

Many seem to be simply the usual suspects - the Sunderlands, Peakes, Yronwoods etc.- who hoped backing the other dragon would give them what they desired for themselves. But as a general rule it seems that the Blackfyre threat as a whole continuously wore down the power and authority of the Iron Throne and created a climate of continuous warfare and rebellion. From BR I we have the Greyjoy raidings, BF II, BF III, the Peake Uprising, BF IV, and the various rebellions throughout the reign of Aegon V eventually culminating in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Aerys and Tywin stabilized the Realm again but the whole 'rebellion against the Iron Throne' pattern eventually led to Robert's Rebellion.

I am really interested to see what rebellions Egg faced

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Daemon I blackfyre actually sounds like a really honorable guy. He duels ser gwayne corbray for an hour, then wounds him, and then takes the time to make sure he gets help from the maesters. He doesn't seem like the type of guy to usurp for no reason.

King aegon knighted Daemon in his twelfth year when he won a squires tourney ( thereby making him the youngest knight ever made in the time of the targaryens, surpassing Maegor I) and shocked his court, kin, and council by bestowing upon him the sword of aegon the conquerer, blackfyre, as well as lands and other honors. Daemon took the name Blackfyre thereafter.

-WoIaF exerpt-aegon IV the unworthy

Knighted at 12. He was a badass.

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