Sympathy for the Blackfyres

[The silver dragon]

for how loyal Bittersteel was to the Blackfyres and Daemon I don't think he just didn't care about that I'm pretty sure he believed Darmon was the rightful king.

But doesn't it just seem weird that Aegon IV would invest so much in Daemon give him his sword and legitimize his bastards and not make him his heir? Does the book say who was with Aegon when he made his final wishes? Just by chance they happend to leave something out?

it's is speculated in the book that aegon's reasoning for not disinheriting daeron, was because he feared a rebellion if he did.

[yzq]

Another interesting thing someone mention a couple pages back, was that Bloodraven and Daemon were closer than Daemon and BS. It should be an interest to point out, that BS and BR fought over their half sister Shiera. Shiera rejected BS for BR and not long after they were all legitimized. BS then coaxes Daemon away from BR and then boom, BF Rebellion and a newer, widening void between BR and Daemon. I like BS, hence my username, but I wouldn't put it past him to use Daemon and the Rebellion as a way to get leverage against BR and as a weapon against BR. These brothers hated each other before they were even born with BR being a Blackwood and BS being a Bracken, their families caught in an eternal feud, their mother's fighting.

Let's also not forget Missy's teats vs Barba's teats.

Tvtropes has an entry under Bittersteel which suggests that he encouraged Daemon to rebel so that he could have his showdown with Bloodraven, to prove "Braken > Blackwood" . Given how petty the feud has become, I don't disagree.

[bittersteelsgold]

Tvtropes has an entry under Bittersteel which suggests that he encouraged Daemon to rebel so that he could have his showdown with Bloodraven, to prove "Braken > Blackwood" . Given how petty the feud has become, I don't disagree.

I like that idea. It makes BS a little more wild, a little more dangerous, and much deeper of a character in that we have only seen him in reference or from POV of another character. It makes more sense if you combine that with the idea that he pushed Daemon to rise, further damaging BR, who was close to Daemon.

So, BR gains favor of Shiera, angering BS.

BR is close to Daemon, and he's Hand of the King.

BS pushes Daemon to challenge the throne.

Who has to give the command to arrest and execute traitors and rebels, who has to deal with that? Bloodraven.

Which also brings us to GRRM's love for the idea of a character in conflict with their own heart.

Bloodraven must arrest Daemon and all of his followers, arrest and try and execute them. Bloodraven loves his brother Daemon dearly, but he's a man of the law. If he does not uphold the law as Hand of The King, he will plunge the realm into chaos, and war. Westeros is still unsettled from the Dance, which makes the situation more dire. Does BR follow his heart, or his King? BS being by Daemon's surely helped him in staying his course as Hand, because of how bitter their rivalry had become.

I would also like to imagine BR as more Nedesque Honorable character. Only he could kill his brother and nephews on the redgrass field. He wouldn't have one of his teeth do it.

I also like to think his departure to the wall was also one out of honor. The rumours about him spread far and wide, they are heard first hand in the D&E stories and echoed in ASOIAF. I feel he was the type of character who already knew his destiny, and new how damaging the rumours were, and due to this he went to the wall, where he would be able to fulfill his destiny as Last Greenseer until Bran's coming. Now I know its hearsay, and we are told he's in the black cells and tried for treason by Argon V, but that could have been just a show. For public safety and secrecy it's much easier to put on a trial or say there was one, then him just leaving.

[yzq]

Aegon sent him to the Wall due to the breaking of diplomatic law (luring that Blackfyre claimant under a peace banner and then murdering him). Bloodraven chose to take the black instead of being executed. Still, he did become Lord Commander in his time there, so what you said make sense.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Bittersteel's beef with Bloodraven predates Shiera - even though BS is older, he was sent away from court and raised at Stone Hedge, and the Brackens were not in favour. BR was raised at court and his mother was the most popular of the mistresses (even Nerys was OK with her), and the Blackwoods never fell out of favour.

I think the Shiera thing is a romantic notion, but at most it pissed BS off because it was just another example of how a Blackwood swoops in takes a Bracken's due (which has not only been the family feud, but also pretty much the entirety of BS's own life up to that point).

[Nic G]

I like that idea. It makes BS a little more wild, a little more dangerous, and much deeper of a character in that we have only seen him in reference or from POV of another character. It makes more sense if you combine that with the idea that he pushed Daemon to rise, further damaging BR, who was close to Daemon.

So, BR gains favor of Shiera, angering BS.

BR is close to Daemon, and he's Hand of the King.

BS pushes Daemon to challenge the throne.

Who has to give the command to arrest and execute traitors and rebels, who has to deal with that? Bloodraven.

Which also brings us to GRRM's love for the idea of a character in conflict with their own heart.

Bloodraven must arrest Daemon and all of his followers, arrest and try and execute them. Bloodraven loves his brother Daemon dearly, but he's a man of the law. If he does not uphold the law as Hand of The King, he will plunge the realm into chaos, and war. Westeros is still unsettled from the Dance, which makes the situation more dire. Does BR follow his heart, or his King? BS being by Daemon's surely helped him in staying his course as Hand, because of how bitter their rivalry had become.

I would also like to imagine BR as more Nedesque Honorable character. Only he could kill his brother and nephews on the redgrass field. He wouldn't have one of his teeth do it.

I also like to think his departure to the wall was also one out of honor. The rumours about him spread far and wide, they are heard first hand in the D&E stories and echoed in ASOIAF. I feel he was the type of character who already knew his destiny, and new how damaging the rumours were, and due to this he went to the wall, where he would be able to fulfill his destiny as Last Greenseer until Bran's coming. Now I know its hearsay, and we are told he's in the black cells and tried for treason by Argon V, but that could have been just a show. For public safety and secrecy it's much easier to put on a trial or say there was one, then him just leaving.

Bloodraven wasn't hand of the king yet Butterwell was at the beginning of the rebellion and was replaced by Lord Hayford who was hand during the redgrass field and died there. I'm guess Baelor replaced him, Bloodraven just feed Daeron information(false or true) that lead to the kingsguard bieng sent after daemon.

[Nic G]

it's is speculated in the book that aegon's reasoning for not disinheriting daeron, was because he feared a rebellion if he did.

that doesn't explain why he would legitimize them though. What I'm saying is that that was a pointless move if he wasn't going to name a new heir.

[yzq]

that doesn't explain why he would legitimize them though. What I'm saying is that that was a pointless move if he wasn't going to name a new heir.

Aegon did the legitimacy thing to spite Daeron, as a final "F U".

[denny717]

Yeah, I don't think anyone understands aegons moves. He didn't out right call daeron a bastard because he didn't want a war, but he did everything possible to provoke daemon into rebelling. He was a fool.

As for BT and BF, I never heard that they were close, but I don't doubt it because they were both bastards who were allowed in the red keep, so growing up they understood eachother in a way Noone else understood them. So maybe when he heard daemon had taken BS side on the matter, and was possibly working with him, BR was personally insulted and felt betrayed.

I think BR getting dark sister is another conflict of interest. Did aegon want him to take BF side? Did he want rebellion, but didn't want to deal with it himself? We know aegon was a bit of a craven. ( scared to even joke about daerons legitimacy while dragon knights alive. A man sworn to protect him) . Now I'm just rambling. This last paragraph is just stuff we don't know for lack of info.

[Nic G]

Yeah, I don't think anyone understands aegons moves. He didn't out right call daeron a bastard because he didn't want a war, but he did everything possible to provoke daemon into rebelling. He was a fool.

As for BT and BF, I never heard that they were close, but I don't doubt it because they were both bastards who were allowed in the red keep, so growing up they understood eachother in a way Noone else understood them. So maybe when he heard daemon had taken BS side on the matter, and was possibly working with him, BR was personally insulted and felt betrayed.

I think BR getting dark sister is another conflict of interest. Did aegon want him to take BF side? Did he want rebellion, but didn't want to deal with it himself? We know aegon was a bit of a craven. ( scared to even joke about daerons legitimacy while dragon knights alive. A man sworn to protect him) . Now I'm just rambling. This last paragraph is just stuff we don't know for lack of info.

I think blood raven and Daeron were scheming together from the beginning since it says that BR's mother and Daeron got along. And I'm guessing Darmon and BS bolth rose as Knights together and that is how the bonded and were trained by Fireball who seem to be the big three in the rebellion.

[JonathanTheBold]

people seem to forget that regardless of what we think about baelor the blessed the common people of westeros loved him and paying homage to his statue of him and revering him in a almost God like manor was definitely a p.r thing no different that when agustus has Ceasar proclaimed a god not just because of what Ceasar did as aman but also so agustus could claim decent from a god

[TheSovereignGrave]

people seem to forget that regardless of what we think about baelor the blessed the common people of westeros loved him and paying homage to his statue of him and revering him in a almost God like manor was definitely a p.r thing no different that when agustus has Ceasar proclaimed a god not just because of what Ceasar did as aman but also so agustus could claim decent from a god

I apologize if it's obvious, but how is that relevant to the discussion?

[walkingWITHcersei]

I find it funny how the idea that BR and Daeron planned the whole thing to get rid of Daemon has so much support but when I argued that Aegon V and BR planned together to get BR to the Wall, the arrest and death sentence commuted to taking the black possibly even executing the BF, I get shouted down. Now that there's no doubt BR is a GSeer why is it crackpot to entertain the possibility that north was precisely where BR would want to go? Sorry to digress I just needed to vent a little.

Ok so I find it difficult to believe that Daeron would agree to falsify evidence as a way to eliminate Daemon. It doesn't fit with the type of man he's been described as. Sure it's possible but highly unlikely. As for BR, of course he'd hardly balk at false imprisonment if he felt it necessary. BR isn't crazy he's pragmatic. He'd kill every last person in Westeros if he needed to but he's no blood thirsty mad man, and doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing like some (eh hem Mr. Cobray could u please step forward and bring that mountainous fellow sitting next to u). There is an even more obvious reason why BR wouldn't falsely accuse Daemon, bc he didn't have to. Look at it from BR's POV. He's hand of the king, he wields enormous power politically, his family is prospering while BS's is faltering more each day. It's been 8 years since Dany was sent to Dorne and the potential for that lighting a fire under Daemon has past, and best of all for BR his skills as a future GSeer likely grow each day giving him every advantage possible over his enemies. Hell, BR even got the girl he loved and the one his mortal enemy wanted as well. BR and the Crown are doing as good as BS is doing bad. Life is great for BR right now. So I ask why would he lie to take down Daemon? Why would he want to take Daemon at all when he poses no threat whatsoever? He must have presented a threat, we know BR had eyes on every conversation between Daemon and BS, and the reaction of the black dragon and his supporters, how quickly they mobilized, and the certain things they did, like minting their own coin, proves that at the very least they had a plan in place if not much more at the time of their attempted arrest. Taken as a whole; Daeron's personality, BR's already secured power, BS's being ousted from court, the reactions to the attempted arrest, none of these things make sense if the evidence was fabricated. BR &Daeron were no dummies and neither wanted war for the sake of war. Daemon was guilty of listening to the wrong people and guilty of treason.

[Nic G]

I find it funny how the idea that BR and Daeron planned the whole thing to get rid of Daemon has so much support but when I argued that Aegon V and BR planned together to get BR to the Wall, the arrest and death sentence commuted to taking the black possibly even executing the BF, I get shouted down. Now that there's no doubt BR is a GSeer why is it crackpot to entertain the possibility that north was precisely where BR would want to go? Sorry to digress I just needed to vent a little.

Ok so I find it difficult to believe that Daeron would agree to falsify evidence as a way to eliminate Daemon. It doesn't fit with the type of man he's been described as. Sure it's possible but highly unlikely. As for BR, of course he'd hardly balk at false imprisonment if he felt it necessary. BR isn't crazy he's pragmatic. He'd kill every last person in Westeros if he needed to but he's no blood thirsty mad man, and doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing like some (eh hem Mr. Cobray could u please step forward and bring that mountainous fellow sitting next to u). There is an even more obvious reason why BR wouldn't falsely accuse Daemon, bc he didn't have to. Look at it from BR's POV. He's hand of the king, he wields enormous power politically, his family is prospering while BS's is faltering more each day. It's been 8 years since Dany was sent to Dorne and the potential for that lighting a fire under Daemon has past, and best of all for BR his skills as a future GSeer likely grow each day giving him every advantage possible over his enemies. Hell, BR even got the girl he loved and the one his mortal enemy wanted as well. BR and the Crown are doing as good as BS is doing bad. Life is great for BR right now. So I ask why would he lie to take down Daemon? Why would he want to take Daemon at all when he poses no threat whatsoever? He must have presented a threat, we know BR had eyes on every conversation between Daemon and BS, and the reaction of the black dragon and his supporters, how quickly they mobilized, and the certain things they did, like minting their own coin, proves that at the very least they had a plan in place if not much more at the time of their attempted arrest. Taken as a whole; Daeron's personality, BR's already secured power, BS's being ousted from court, the reactions to the attempted arrest, none of these things make sense if the evidence was fabricated. BR &Daeron were no dummies and neither wanted war for the sake of war. Daemon was guilty of listening to the wrong people and guilty of treason.

Egg doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would allow a guest to be killed so I have no doubt that it was entirely BR who murdered Aenys(whether BR wanted to go to the wall or he discovered tcotf later idk)

BR wasn't hand when the rebellion happend I wouldn't be surprised if he was a new greenseer and saw daemons rebellion and had Daeron arrest him which fulfilled his own prophecy sort of thing. Daemon also didn't respond that quickly it was a year before the Redgrass field that is plenty of time to start from scratch plus he had the Reynes and Tarbecks on his side so make his own coin doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Also BR wasn't hand yet I explained that earlier in the thread Butterwell, Hayford, Baelor, Valar all came before him. So BS and BR weren't that far different in prestige they just chose different Kings.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Egg doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would allow a guest to be killed so I have no doubt that it was entirely BR who murdered Aenys(whether BR wanted to go to the wall or he discovered tcotf later idk)

BR wasn't hand when the rebellion happend I wouldn't be surprised if he was a new greenseer and saw daemons rebellion and had Daeron arrest him which fulfilled his own prophecy sort of thing. Daemon also didn't respond that quickly it was a year before the Redgrass field that is plenty of time to start from scratch plus he had the Reynes and Tarbecks on his side so make his own coin doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Also BR wasn't hand yet I explained that earlier in the thread Butterwell, Hayford, Baelor, Valar all came before him. So BS and BR weren't that far different in prestige they just chose different Kings.

I don't see your point with Redgrass Field; if I recall correctly that wasn't the first major battle of the Rebellion. It was the last.

[Bironic]

BR wasn't hand when the rebellion happend I wouldn't be surprised if he was a new greenseer and saw daemons rebellion and had Daeron arrest him which fulfilled his own prophecy sort of thing.

So BS and BR weren't that far different in prestige they just chose different Kings.

Well but BR was at court, while BS was most likely not. And BR might have been on the small council as master of spies or in another position (Justiciar, or Master of Ships or something else).

I like the idea that BR had a green dream about the Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Nic G]

I don't see your point with Redgrass Field; if I recall correctly that wasn't the first major battle of the Rebellion. It was the last.

it says many battles were fought between the red and the black dragon in the the vale westerlands and reach but to me that doesn't sound like major armies coming together and clashing more like quickly assembled raiding parties. It also seems like everyone in westeros is almost always ready for war looking at how quickly Rob could march south and Tywin could burn the riverlands.

It doesn't mean the blackfyre men were waiting to blitzkrieg daeron's lords it just sounds like Daemon was crowned and ppl started taking sides is what I mean not so premeditated.

[Nic G]

Well but BR was at court, while BS was most likely not. And BR might have been on the small council as master of spies or in another position (Justiciar, or Master of Ships or something else).

I like the idea that BR had a green dream about the Blackfyre Rebellion.

didn'tit say Daeron invited all the great bastards to court when he took the throne? Sort of a friends close and enemies closer type of thing

[Bironic]

didn'tit say Daeron invited all the great bastards to court when he took the throne? Sort of a friends close and enemies closer type of thing

He did what he could to keep them close. He gave Daemon a castle near the Blackwater. That doesn't mean that they had an office in the governance of the realm. Or that they were always at court.

I think Bloodraven served Daeron II in the small council or in the City Watch or some other important office. I highly doubt that Bittersteel had the same relation to Daeron II.

[Nic G]

He did what he could to keep them close. He gave Daemon a castle near the Blackwater. That doesn't mean that they had an office in the governance of the realm. Or that they were always at court.

I think Bloodraven served Daeron II in the small council or in the City Watch or some other important office. I highly doubt that Bittersteel had the same relation to Daeron II.

Aegon gave Daemon the lands and titles when he knighted him at twelve. Daeron's gifts don't seem like much since he already had everything and he was a prince no matter which side you take a place at the red keep isn't all to crazy