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The Dragon Demands

GRRM posts full unpublished version of "History of the Westerlands" from World book

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^Ran and Linda also said they think GRRM intended the Lannisters of Lannisport as a lordly house on Reddit, i think. In their 20 questions thing from the other day (the post-WOIAF one)

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GRRM posted up the full original version of the "History of the Westerlands" up on his blog. As he notes, it is longer than the printed version in The World of Ice and Fire, which got edited down for length. He also notes that it's the version he gave at a few convention readings, so we've heard a few bits of this from previous reports.

This content raises some major issues. In most cases they're minor extra details which I'd consider canon because they don't contradict anything. On the other hand, the manner of how Ellyn Reyne died is entirely different.

With my copy of the World book open, I copy-pasted any section from this longer original version that didn't appear in the published version, and added it to a running list.

Here it is:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

Mention the "Age of a Hundred Kingdoms"

Was Tywin 10 or 12 in 254 AC? Dates conflict between versions.

At her urging, Lord Tarbeck expanded his domain by buying the lands of the lesser lords and landed knights about him. . . and taking by f

When Ser Kevan Lannister approached under a peace banner to demand her surrender, she laughed at him, and said, “You are not the

(Final version says that Joanna was already in King's Landing.)

Thanks for sharing.

That's really awesome text, especially fragments about Rains of Castamere. Ran, Linda I admire your work.

My prediction that this verse from

" Rains" was Elyn's quote was true. ;)

And now I can relax and listen to

https://youtu.be/sa9CvDPXYNI this music is amazing ↓

When in 2013 I wasn't sure if ASOIAF is interesting and rich book ( I was seeking for such since my 6th Silmarillion re-read in 2011, I didn't like Harry Potter, neither liked Eragon and Witcher ). Good friend told me that if I like Tolkien ASOIAF will be perfect for me. He also told me to watch Rains of Castamere ( I liked this name as it ws similar to Castamir - Usurper to Gondor's throne in LoTR ) now I think that he meant episode of show titled "Rains of Castamere" and to spoil me nearly three books ;) ) But still I wasn't convinced. Than I listened to ↑ it ( Lions were always my second favourite animals after Tigers ) and read few random articles about Houses on the Wiki ( I always want to know ALL about world in which books I read are set), than I bought GoT and Clash at one day, SoS week after, six days later Feast, Dance another week later . I've bought Knight of the Seven Kingdoms when it came out, and pre-ordered World in last October... than I've found this forum.

off-topic so I've put it into spoiler tags to save space

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Here is a snapshot by the Wayback Machine at the Internet Archive.

Thanks. I can't see any differences.

If we can use it, which version should be used when accounts conflict, such as the death of Ellyn?

I'm sure Ran would say to go with the released material when it conflicts with unreleased stuff. The death of Ellyn especially since it's described in Feast:

When Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on Lady Ellyn, that scheming bitch, Tyg claimed he smiled then.

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George's version includes stuff that has changed for TWoIaF. Like, Denys Marbrand is now Alyn Marbrand, Joffrey Lydden-Lannister has been added to explain how the Lannisters are descended from Lann only through the female line, Cerelle's spelling has been changed, and Ellyn Reyne-Lannister-Tarbecks manner of death has been corrected to fit AFfC.



Does anybody else also think that Margot Lannister may be a second cousin/niece of Lord Gerold married to Titus Peake in a way to make amends of the Red Lion's Peake slaughtering following the fall of Starpike? Titus may have been an infant in 233 AC or born only after the end of the uprising, as might have been Margot. Both could easily be in their sixties right now.


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Lord Varys,



Surely the marriage must have its origin in the conflict. But I don't see Gerold "making amends" with a fallen enemy by marrying his kin into their heirs. I think it would be more likely that Titus was brought to Casterly Rock as a hostage (alla Theon), and then they arranged the marriage in order to gain some influence over the Peake lands.


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Yeah, hostage stuff could be at the core of that. If Titus had been alive in 233 he could have been claimed as hostage by Gerold, if not, he might have been born while his parents were hostages at CR and grown up there, eventually marrying Margot.



And unless the Peakes aren't exactly done for - which is unlikely considering there prominence in Dunk & Egg, ADwD, and TWoIaF - we should find out where Titus and Margot live soon. If Starpike was rebuild with Lannister gold, and Titus and Margot live there they might be very well be among the Golden Company friends in the Reach - although I guess the Merryweathers are the other important Golden Company friendly house).


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You're not reading that right.

It talks about his friends and all these sellswords he could collect. That ~8000 figure is an army raised from allies and sellswords, not that the Reyne house strength is 8,000 strong. (It'd be like saying... I don't know, House Baratheon's strength is 100,000, because Renly had the Tyrells as allies. )

Had I a guess, the Reynes probably have a feudal following of 4,000, and with added allies and sellswords could augment to past double that.

Yes....moreover, I don't think it means Tywin's total strength was "three times" Reyne's total *possible* strength, but three times what Reyne had *at that time*: Reyne had under 2,000, Tywin had around 6,000 -- what he could quickly assemble for a fast surprise attack. Later on this was swelled by other armies.

EDIT: Ack, Ramsay's Penguins already acknowledged his error.

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Oh, right, Ellyn's death details were already mentioned in AFFC so this had to be changed.



But otherwise, is other material "canon" for the wiki so long as it doesn't contradict anything? Or do we at least put a "semi-canon" warning next to it?


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I hoped for more blood from the Reynes, but drowning them in their castle is still incredible. Love how he put all the male Tarbecks to the sword and watched. Even threw the baby down a well lol. Tywin was easily the most badass character in the series. Would love to have something from George from his stint as Hand of the King.


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Material from unpublished texts can't be canonical, because they are not in fixed and final form.



They could fall under the "semi-canon" definition used for the wiki, however.


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Oh, right, Ellyn's death details were already mentioned in AFFC so this had to be changed.

But otherwise, is other material "canon" for the wiki so long as it doesn't contradict anything? Or do we at least put a "semi-canon" warning next to it?

Usually, in cases like this the wiki reads 'according to semi-canon sources, ...'

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George's version includes stuff that has changed for TWoIaF. Like, Denys Marbrand is now Alyn Marbrand, Joffrey Lydden-Lannister has been added to explain how the Lannisters are descended from Lann only through the female line, Cerelle's spelling has been changed, and Ellyn Reyne-Lannister-Tarbecks manner of death has been corrected to fit AFfC.

What's also changed is when the Andals came to Westerlands. In the book, first the Andals came, then the Lannisters expanded their territory till their current borders, approximately. In George's version though, the Lannisters expanded their territory before coming of the Andals. Also, the phrase "their blood ran gold" in George's version has a completely different meaning.

I think that's the only differences there are between two versions, except for added information.

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I do hope expands his information, especially on the Starks as I believe they have all the potential to be just as creepy as the Targaryens. I'm also a little sick of the Lannisters.


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Even threw the baby down a well lol.

You read how a baby is murdered and your reaction is to laugh out loud?!? Really? :stunned:

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I wonder if the "lost last lord Tarbeck"... and the hints that he was smuggled out, across the Narrow Sea, to become a bard... a Bael-ish type of bard, perhaps, with a son called Petyr? :-)


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I wonder if the "lost last lord Tarbeck"... and the hints that he was smuggled out, across the Narrow Sea, to become a bard... a Bael-ish type of bard, perhaps, with a son called Petyr? :-)

If a 24 year old can be passed off as an 14 ear old boy, yes. Otherwise, no. The lost last Lord Tarbeck was 10 years older than Petyr.

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The Tarbeck boy thing is a very obvious hint towards Aegon, the other boy murdered by Tywin's dogs who might be still alive.


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Material from unpublished texts can't be canonical, because they are not in fixed and final form.

They could fall under the "semi-canon" definition used for the wiki, however.

Then "according to semi-canon sources" it shall be.

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Freaking awesome, thanks for posting this!



As many of you might be expecting I feel myself getting drawn back to the Lion. Maybe I'm denying my nature when favoring the Arryns? Time will tell, and you'll know if I change my avatar again.


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