One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[LmL]

You can blaspheme against most anything, but not geography :)

If you sail through the arctic from Canada, you end up in Siberia, not the Phillipines.

[RobOsevens]

I was wondering if I was missing something that was implicitly stated but its just an assumption (a safe one mind you)

Its strange that Mel mentions her powers being strongest at the Wall and by the Shadow and never makes the connection that they are potentially the same/similar bc of location tho

[Barri_The_Bold]

Hold on, this is important. Supposedly writing only came with the Andals - the First Men having only the runes. So, what record was he struck from? If the NW goes back to the LN at the end of the Dawn / Heroes Age (the deliniation there is arbitrary and meaningless), then either they did not have records, and the "stricken form the records" is a figure of speech to say "we don't talk about him anymore, or they did have records and the NW was the only literate part of Westeros. That seems absurd, unless the original NW are Great Empire of the Dawn people from overseas or something crazy like that.

Thanks, that was exactly my point, sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

Runes were a primitive form of writing and they were never used to the extent as modern writing is used. So it is highly likely that if at all the NW at that time had very few records. Sam says that there is a list of 600 and something Lord Commander's of the NW although Jon currently is the 998th, so it is very likely that these records began when the Andals came to Westeros and the first of them joined the NW. So there are probably no records from before that time and that was about 2000 years after the Night's King. All stories of him at that time would have been passed on orally and written down as a legend more than as facts years later.

TNK was the 13th, by that point the watch wasnt so primitive, surely. your mistaking the primitivity of the original first men, to the first men during the night's king's era. Others existed way before the night's king came into play, as did the watch. it's a timeline thing, man.

But they were still First Men using runes no matter how far they might have developped since their beginnings. The Andals brought the way of writing that has been used ever since to do the records at the NW.

Of course they existed way before, but that doesn't mean the records did. They were written down many years later from septons and maesters and they are probably highly inaccurate because they were passed on orally before. That's why there are knights in the tales of the Age of Heroes, millenia before knights rode across Westeros, since that's and Andal thing. So we can assume there are many thing wrong with other stories, too.

Edit: Sorry Lucifer, we wrote about the same thing at the same time :D

[RobOsevens]

Whoa, what? No, you don't. Not at all - where do you get this idea? The Shadowlands seem to be near the equator, and the heart of winter in the arctic circle. If you go over the arctic, you are on the other side of the world in the NORTHERN hemisphere. You still have to travel all the way down to the equator. The shadowlands are not "just over the hill" from the North. They are thousands of miles apart.

I was wondering if I was missing something that was implicitly stated but its just an assumption (a safe one mind you)

Its strange that Mel mentions her powers being strongest at the Wall and by the Shadow and never makes the connection that they are potentially the same/similar bc of location tho

ok maybe it wasn't a safe assumption

[LmL]

Barri the Bold, we are looking at the same picture. The written records from pre-Andal days would have been written down after the Andals came, and thus were written from memory and oral traditions. Some cultures, like Vedic India, make a very intense, ritualistic practice out of perfectly memorizing the sacred writings (the Vedas) which are written in very tight and specific verse form. The older generations teaches the younger, and the verse forms guarantee that no changes are made, as any changes ruins the rhyme and meter. These kind of oral traditions can be actually more accurate that written ones, for these reasons. But the NW does not have any sort of tradition like that, so their ememories of the NK at the time of the Andals' arrival would be highly suspect.

[Barri_The_Bold]

Exactly. Without a tradition as the Vedas had, facts beome stories and stories become legends. I'm not saying that there isn't any truth about these legends, there is always a piece of truth in them, but we cannot take every word as if it were reality.

[LmL]

Exactly. Without a tradition as the Vedas had, facts beome stories and stories become legends. I'm not saying that there isn't any truth about these legends, there is always a piece of truth in them, but we cannot take every word as if it were reality.

Yes, I agree. They aren't meaningless - the people who dismiss all the old legends of Planetos as meaningless fable are showing both their lack of understanding of myth and legend in the real world - which nearly always contain an element of truth, if you know how to look - and their lack of common sense as it pertains to writing a fantasy novel. OF COURSE those old stories are important and relevant, I mean fucking duh. It's a fantasy novel. The prophecies and legends always mean something. The point we are making, though, is that we, the reader, are clearly supposed to think that versions of these myhts and legends that we get are flawed, distorted, etc etc. That's the point we are making - the NK was a real thing, and important, but you can't take any single detail as a fact. Any one detail could be wrong or inverted. But George is clearly part mystery writer - he's laid all kinds of puzzles out for us to solve, and most of them inform on the themes and characters of the main story. Our exploration of Daenerys as the Amethyst Empress tells us a little bit more about Daenerys' potential legacies which she can fulfill. It seems she can go the way of the Bloodstone Emperor or the Amethyst Empress - again, speaking on these roles as the archetypes which seem to be baked into Planetos fiber.

The timeline aspect in particular should be viewed with extreme skepticism. The deliniation between the dawn age and the age of heroes is TOTALLY arbitrary, a convention the maesters developed to sort out everything from before the Long Night. Things which seem totally fantastical to them (the Dawn Age pile) and the things which they belive to be at least rooted in fact to some extent (age of heroes) are categories created by the maesters, not any kind of real historical era. Again, everything before the Long Night, from every part of the world, is totally up for grabs.

[Lenabot]

If Essos and Westeros were connected by land, it would've been via a Grey Wastes <--> Lands of Always Winter bridge. Definitely not via Asshai.

However, Martin has debunked landbridge theories. Essos and Westeros are separated by water in both directions. It is unknown what exactly lies east of Essos. It could be the Sunset Sea (thus leading back to Westeros), but there could be more landmasses out there. Martin once said that Planetos was bigger than Earth. If so, we've seen less than half of it.

It's entirely possible that a black, oily stone could've landed in the Lands of Always Winter -- though it's unknown what implications that would have.

As for the Night's King, we don't know exactly when the Night's Watch was formed. Some variations of the tale state that they were formed before the Wall's construction, during the actual war against the Others. And that they were a key part of the Battle for the Dawn. If that's true, they could have lost any number of Lord Commanders during the conflict. The Night's King could have theoretically been the first Lord Commander to serve on the Wall.

Regardless, it all would've happened many many mannnnny years before the Andals even thought about taking a vacation to Westeros.

[BalerionTheCat]

Probably not many things would have been recorded before the Andals. But the NW could have ice grave for their Lord Commanders. Even if they had no written records at all, they could have known he was the 13th LC. And afterward, the oral tradition could have kept only the number. Whenever the NW started.

If some FM were refugees from the troubles in the east, they could have known some shit would come from the North. Maybe the first NW brothers were people previously manning the 5 forts. And they decided to resume their station here. So, the 13 LC could be the LH, or another player in the LN and its ending. Not someone coming after.

Not geographically, but the 13th LC or the LH and his companions could be related to the events in the far east. And their surviving relatives could be first Starks.

And concerning Planetos. AFAIK, we don't know where, when going south, we meet again colder climates. As far as we know the north is very cold, because the sun is constantly warming the south pole. So, above some north latitude, the LN would be permanent. And the south pole would be a real inferno.

[Barri_The_Bold]

Yes, I agree. They aren't meaningless - the people who dismiss all the old legends of Planetos as meaningless fable are showing both their lack of understanding of myth and legend in the real world - which nearly always contain an element of truth, if you know how to look - and their lack of common sense as it pertains to writing a fantasy novel. OF COURSE those old stories are important and relevant, I mean fucking duh. It's a fantasy novel. The prophecies and legends always mean something. The point we are making, though, is that we, the reader, are clearly supposed to think that versions of these myhts and legends that we get are flawed, distorted, etc etc. That's the point we are making - the NK was a real thing, and important, but you can't take any single detail as a fact. Any one detail could be wrong or inverted. But George is clearly part mystery writer - he's laid all kinds of puzzles out for us to solve, and most of them inform on the themes and characters of the main story.

I honestly lol'd :D

And that imo is half the fun about those books. The almost endless possibilities to theorize and speculate. Many of those puzzles could be red herrings, though, but it's still fun.

The timeline aspect in particular should be viewed with extreme skepticism. The deliniation between the dawn age and the age of heroes is TOTALLY arbitrary, a convention the maesters developed to sort out everything from before the Long Night. Things which seem totally fantastical to them (the Dawn Age pile) and the things which they belive to be at least rooted in fact to some extent (age of heroes) are categories created by the maesters, not any kind of real historical era. Again, everything before the Long Night, from every part of the world, is totally up for grabs.

Never thought about that, but yes. of course those eras are artificial, made by the people that came after them like we separate into ancient world, middle ages and modern age. So there are certainly difiiculties in separating the truth from the legend or myth, too.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I hadn't considered Mel may have been menstruating, I thought it was more general leakage because of the damage to her internals things like birthing shadow babies would have done. Either way, though it may be proof of some humanity hanging on, it could not possibly be classified as a normal humanity :D

I find the best fit for what seems to be happening to Mel some type of possession. She's like Reagan in the Exorcist, if Regan had a working womb and the demon had been hanging around inside her for years.

I am sure, that under her glamor, Mel looks quite horrifying. I'm sure most Shadowbinders do.

As a side note, surely Mel would not have presented a comfortable environment for Stannis' penis :D

Ha, well, he kept going back for more, so...

Some like it hot, I guess. :-P

Her youthfulness is not a glamour - she rides horses and does other vigorous activity that a 90 year old would have trouble with. Her health is dependent on magic. She’s actually extended her life - it’s not just an illusion. Not saying she doesn’t USE illusion on herself, o that how she looks is how she really is, just that she is more than a glamour, and I wouldn’t expect her to look old underneath.

Yeah, this is sort of what I was getting at. I think illusion is a strong part of the Red Priest repertoir. Even Thoros, who kind of half-asses his job at King's Landing and doesn't seem to be using a glamour still used the flaming sword trick. I suspect Moqorro is using some sort of glamour, also, if only to cover the physical damage that several days floating in the ocean would be bound to inflict.

BUT there's also clearly more to it. Whatever magic Mel and Moqorro may be using to disguise their appearance also keeps them healthy and vital in actuality as well as appearance.

[Blazfemur]

i truly dont know what is so difficult about common geography.

the world is a circle, a globe, correct?

if you travel, northwest enough (BOTH north, AND west), in a diagonal line, you appear eventually on the southeastern portion of the world, correct?

looking at a map of planetos, northwest on the map is the wall, beyond the wall, etc, keep going northwest, you dont end up upper east, because youre STILL going diagonally upward as well, appearing in the lowest portions of the map.

what the hell am i saying thats wrong here? i do realize the temperature shifts are in fact drastic, but geographically, this is where the world is laid out, and how it is. my apologies if what is there is in disagreement to anything else, but it's how it's laid out.

[Blazfemur]

think our globe for a moment. say youre in alaska, right?

keep going northwest, again, north AND west, you dont end up in asia, youll eventually meet australia, it's the same concept, because your ever-travelling north while going west.

it's the basis for what quaithe was trying to tell daenarys "to journey north, you must go south," etc. she was directing her through the shadowlands travelling southeast and eventually going through the land of always winter. Daenerys obviously WONT do that, but that was the basis for what quaithe advised her to do

[BalerionTheCat]

i truly dont know what is so difficult about common geography.

the world is a circle, a globe, correct?

if you travel, northwest enough (BOTH north, AND west), in a diagonal line, you appear eventually on the southeastern portion of the world, correct?

looking at a map of planetos, northwest on the map is the wall, beyond the wall, etc, keep going northwest, you dont end up upper east, because youre STILL going diagonally upward as well, appearing in the lowest portions of the map.

what the hell am i saying thats wrong here? i do realize the temperature shifts are in fact drastic, but geographically, this is where the world is laid out, and how it is. my apologies if what is there is in disagreement to anything else, but it's how it's laid out.

No. When you are far north, and travel north, you don't teleport suddenly far south.

But when you are east, and you travel east, you will appear on the far west of the map, still traveling east. This is because you can roll-up the left and right side of the map and produce a cylinder a bit like a globe. But the map is rolled-up in only one direction. If you want to roll the map in the other direction, you must have the two poles in the middle of the map (where you traditionally have the equator). And they are apart by haft the circumference. But only people living on the poles would draw their maps like that.

[Mychel_Redfort]

if you travel, northwest enough (BOTH north, AND west), in a diagonal line, you appear eventually on the southeastern portion of the world, correct?

If you start northwest in a diagonal line, you'll first get around the north pole, and your latitude will grow until you reach a maximum north, but then the latitude will lessen, passing the equator at latitude zero then the latitude south will grow until you get near the south pole and you reach a maximum south. Then the latitude south will lessen and before you reach again the equator, or a bit after, you will reappear on the map of the Known World, but not before. And you will likely have crossed many lands, not only sea.

Now if you travel not in a diagonal line but in an horizontal line, always west, you will stay at the same latitude, and you will travel less before you reappear east of the map of the Known World.

[Barri_The_Bold]

There are two problems I see with your theory.

First is about Planetos. You're forgetting about the land/continent/whatever of Ulthos which is south of Asshai and the Saffron Straits, which would be the place you would come out most likely.

Problem two is with your argument about a globe. Look at a globe at home (a real one, not a map) and go northwest from Alaska. You'll first go north scratching the edges of the polar regione and then you'll come through Siberia and then, depending on where you started and how far west you're going either through India or Africa until you finally after thousnads of miles reach the souther polar region. So much about common geography...

[LmL]

think our globe for a moment. say youre in alaska, right?

keep going northwest, again, north AND west, you dont end up in asia, youll eventually meet australia, it's the same concept, because your ever-travelling north while going west.

it's the basis for what quaithe was trying to tell daenarys "to journey north, you must go south," etc. she was directing her through the shadowlands travelling southeast and eventually going through the land of always winter. Daenerys obviously WONT do that, but that was the basis for what quaithe advised her to do

Dude… If you go north and west from Alaska you end up in Siberia. Siberia, not Australia. I don't know what else to say really

[Blazfemur]

Dude… If you go north and west from Alaska you end up in Siberia. Siberia, not Australia. I don't know what else to say really

thats just west though! excluding northern travel!

seriously am i just being an asshole here?

[Blazfemur]

no joke, because i want to not be a complete asshole that isnt talking out of their ass here.

ok

say your on the northwesternmost portion of alaska here, on this map:

http://geology.com/world/world-map.shtml

start sailing northwest, and not just west, but north too.

youre telling me you wont eventually hit new zealand and then australia? come on now

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Yes, if you have an airplane or a duck-boat or something. But I think you could say that about a lot of different points on the map; I'm not sure this in itself gives LoAW and Asshai any special relationship.