One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[Durran Durrandon]

Oh but wait! What if the heart of shadow was once something else? Shadow isn’t the opposite of winter, is it? I am thinking that the heart of winter is a pure font of ice magic, while the shadow is a corrupted font of fire magic, because of the meteor.

Corrupted in this case might be the wrong term. I agree with Mel on this. It might be the most sensible thing she has said. Light, in this case fire, casts shadows. I feel that Jojen would approve of this state. "If ice can burn . . ."

[Durran Durrandon]

I hope you're raising him to be the next generation of ASoIaF-Fans ;-)

Thanks, we did our best.

You're talking about the same kind of stone the Seastone Chair, the Five Forts and some other things I forgot are made of?

The Seastone Chair, Ashaii, Yeen, The Toad, but not Five Forts.

And yes, little Arya is turning out just fine. Thanks. :)

[Blazfemur]

This from Blazfemur’s bio page:

Welcome to my nether-realm of self-loathing, alcohol, ambien, sexual exploration & black metal

fucking hilarious bro

not always :(

lmao

[Barri_The_Bold]

Five forts is fused stone, as well the Hightower fortress (fused stone = dragon fire + sorcery)

The greasy stone is at Asshai, Yeen, Isle of Toads, and Seastone chair. I think this may be the moon rock but its far from certain.

Okay, I must have mixed that up...

So what if that greasy stone is part of a meteorite that fell on Planetos millenia ago and somehow corrupted the areas where it surfaced. So, Asshai, Yeen, the Isle of Toads, the Iron Islands and the Lands of always winter. All of these areas are either uninhabitated (Yeen), has some sort of humanoid but not humand life form (Isle of Toads, Land of Always winter) or lost its former glory (Asshai). Everything except for the Iron Islands. So what if there it only corrupted the minds if the people living there and since then they became that pillaging kind of people.

Asshai was once a huge city, now it is still as huge but with only a fragment of its former population. The nearby Shadow Lands probably once fertile lands to feed such a huge city.

Yeen has a city with walls so there must have lived quite a few people but now it's abandoned.

The Isle of Toads is said to be inhabited by fishlike humanoids, so possibly changed/corrupted humans.

The Land of Always Winter is inhabited by humanoid ice creatures who are possibly First Men.

And finally the Iron Islands... It is said the Seastone chair was found already carved into its shape by the ancestors of the Ironborn. So the people before them could have gone extinct due to certain effects of that particular stone and the Ironborn are one of the most violent people in Westeros, so they could be affected by the greasy stone.

I admit that this is total crackpot that just crossed my mind and it's 2 a.m. here, so yeah...

[Lenabot]

So, as a related question, what do you think Ice-Melisandre's motives are? Or -- just in general -- the motives of the Others?

I've thought of a thousand reasons why the Others might be mustering now, but nothing seems to fit. Because lots of big events have happened, but the Others never responded (like the extinction of dragons).

And at the same time, they were encountered before many big unique world events -- before the return of dragons, before the Starks left Winterfell, before the War of Five Kings, etc.

Unless it takes them decades to start moving, I'm really at a loss for what draws them south. Winter? Winter's never drawn them down. The imminent Long Night? Perhaps, but then you get into a debate about what's causing the new Long Night and why the Others feel compelled to spread throughout the land when it falls.

[Barri_The_Bold]

The Seastone Chair, Ashaii, Yeen, The Toad, but not Five Forts.

And yes, little Arya is turning out just fine. Thanks. :)

Oh a girl, I'm sorry, I don't know why assumed it's a boy. And nice choice of name, but I hope she doesn't face the same fate her namesake does ;)

[LmL]

Corrupted in this case might be the wrong term. I agree with Mel on this. It might be the most sensible thing she has said. Light, in this case fire, casts shadows. I feel that Jojen would approve of this state. "If ice can burn . . ."

I don't see much of any light at all coming from Asshai by the Shadow or any of the spellcasters who draw their magical art from there. It's all shadow. Sure, light has a shadow aspect, but it shouldn't be overwhelmingly stronger than the light aspect. It's Asshai by the Shadow, and the sun never really shines fully there. It's all darkness. That's the definition of corrupted fire magic.

[Durran Durrandon]

Oh a girl, I'm sorry, I don't know why assumed it's a boy. And nice choice of name, but I hope she doesn't face the same fate her namesake does ;)

Yeah I didn't really name her Arya. Though admittedly, it sounded like a better idea when I had only read GoT.

[Blazfemur]

So, as a related question, what do you think Ice-Melisandre's motives are? Or -- just in general -- the motives of the Others?

I've thought of a thousand reasons why the Others might be mustering now, but nothing seems to fit. Because lots of big events have happened, but the Others never responded (like the extinction of dragons).

And at the same time, they were encountered before many big unique world events -- before the return of dragons, before the Starks left Winterfell, before the War of Five Kings, etc.

Unless it takes them decades to start moving, I'm really at a loss for what draws them south. Winter? Winter's never drawn them down. The imminent Long Night? Perhaps, but then you get into a debate about what's causing the new Long Night and why the Others feel compelled to spread throughout the land when it falls.

honestly? I think they built the wall. i mean let's look at it this way, it's 2/3 ice, an element Others can manipulate.

if BtB was human, i dont think he built it, i think he may have constructed the castles/forts, but the wall? No.

However, if it turned out BtB=TNK=TLH, or even JUST BtB=TNK, as an Other himself, I can see him doing it

or even, the first third of the wall that is just stone and whatever, BtB was human, turned Other, then completed the rest of the 2/3 with his powers

that being said

Going back to TNK leading them, and his 12 companions in black, that apparently follow to some extent the basic tennents of the night's oath, i think they lost the wall. they were exiled north, when winter fell. perhaps it was there, when the wall was constructed *shrugs*, and then they lost it

i think their motives are to take back what is theres (as a race), i think to TNK specifically, his motives are to let his story be heard, to reclaim and cast out the poisons that were spit on his name, and perhaps to break past the wall, and be buried where he rightfully should be -- winterfell.

because if there isnt a stark, in winterfell.. which there isnt....i'll let you brainstorm

[Barri_The_Bold]

Yeah I didn't really name her Arya. Though admittedly, it sounded like a better idea when I had only read GoT.

What a pity. Yeah, back then she was just cute and a little bit badass. Later on she's even more badass, but also a bit crazy.

[Blazfemur]

What a pity. Yeah, back then she was just cute and a little bit badass. Later on she's even more badass, but also a bit crazy.

oh let's face it she's thrown a tempor tantrum all across westeros and is now infecting braavos with it. waah waah waah my list, my deathprayer waah waah look out ill put you on it and say your name before bed waah waah.

lmao nah she's bad ass.

with a bad ass planetos-spanning tantrum.

Barri, thats how we're going to figure out how to get to the heart of winter and the heart of darkness. if there is a way, im sure Arya's tantrum will find it.

[Barri_The_Bold]

Okay okay, I got it, just chill :P Just wanted to be nice to a parent, jeez...

I made a post about an hour ago, so why don't you refer to that and tell me your opinion on it. Then I'll gladly continue the discussion ;)

[Blazfemur]

Okay okay, I got it, just chill :P Just wanted to be nice to a dad, jeez...

I made a post about an hour ago, so why don't you refer to that and tell me your opinion on it. Then I'll gladly continue the discussion ;)

lol im just busting arya fans chops, i think shes awesome truly

Okay, I must have mixed that up...

So what if that greasy stone is part of a meteorite that fell on Planetos millenia ago and somehow corrupted the areas where it surfaced. So, Asshai, Yeen, the Isle of Toads, the Iron Islands and the Lands of always winter. All of these areas are either uninhabitated (Yeen), has some sort of humanoid but not humand life form (Isle of Toads, Land of Always winter) or lost its former glory (Asshai). Everything except for the Iron Islands. So what if there it only corrupted the minds if the people living there and since then they became that pillaging kind of people.

Asshai was once a huge city, now it is still as huge but with only a fragment of its former population. The nearby Shadow Lands probably once fertile lands to feed such a huge city.

Yeen has a city with walls so there must have lived quite a few people but now it's abandoned.

The Isle of Toads is said to be inhabited by fishlike humanoids, so possibly changed/corrupted humans.

The Land of Always Winter is inhabited by humanoid ice creatures who are possibly First Men.

And finally the Iron Islands... It is said the Seastone chair was found already carved into its shape by the ancestors of the Ironborn. So the people before them could have gone extinct due to certain effects of that particular stone and the Ironborn are one of the most violent people in Westeros, so they could be affected by the greasy stone.

I admit that this is total crackpot that just crossed my mind and it's 2 a.m. here, so yeah...

definitely crackpot. ive always tried to validate the shadowlands in some way. like a second wall, as the oath specificalyl states, "i am the watcher on the wallSSS." that perhaps that 2nd wall's shadow, is whats cast over the shadowlands. i discount it of course.

then maybe the shadowlands are undergoing their own personal Long Night. You think? This surely cant be, because no one in essos really talks of an Other problem.

Inevitably it goes back to that greasy stone. was it always so? Did the doom of valyria cause a massive amount of ash to cover everything, coating in, making it greasy when mixed with it's natural humidity?

*shrugs*

i always try and think out of the box, sometimes unnecessarily, admittedly.

in response to some of your ideas though, a lot of them seem statements and not debateable lol. the isle of toads, could it be possible theyre populated with crannog-like people? with the meteor that fell, i actually only recall the one that fell that they forged Dawn from. Is this what you mean?

[Barri_The_Bold]

definitely crackpot. ive always tried to validate the shadowlands in some way. like a second wall, as the oath specificalyl states, "i am the watcher on the wallSSS." that perhaps that 2nd wall's shadow, is whats cast over the shadowlands. i discount it of course.

then maybe the shadowlands are undergoing their own personal Long Night. You think? This surely cant be, because no one in essos really talks of an Other problem.

Inevitably it goes back to that greasy stone. was it always so? Did the doom of valyria cause a massive amount of ash to cover everything, coating in, making it greasy when mixed with it's natural humidity?

*shrugs*

i always try and think out of the box, sometimes unnecessarily, admittedly.

in response to some of your ideas though, a lot of them seem statements and not debateable lol. the isle of toads, could it be possible theyre populated with crannog-like people? with the meteor that fell, i actually only recall the one that fell that they forged Dawn from. Is this what you mean?

Well, as I said it's the middle of the night here, so my brain might not function properly.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Long Night in Asshai, it's just said the sun isn't as bright anymore and I didn't mean that there have to be any Others. I was just trying to point out that everywhere that greasy stone is found there is something odd or at least remains of a now extinct race/people. That was merely a tool to get to the point that there could be a huge chunk of that stone in the Lands of Always Winter/The Heart of Winter which is the source of the Others magic similarily to Asshai and the Heart of Shadow.

No, I didn't mean that meteor. I just had the idea, that that greasy stone could be from a meteorite since it's found all over Planetos, yet no one knows where it came from. So it could have bursted in the atmosphere and surfaced all over Planetos. Or it may be parts of the second moon of Planetos from the Dothraki legend. Just speculating what the source of magic could be and thus the source of the Others we were talking about.

[Blazfemur]

Well, as I said it's the middle of the night here, so my brain might not function properly.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Long Night in Asshai, it's just said the sun isn't as bright anymore and I didn't mean that there have to be any Others. I was just trying to point out that everywhere that greasy stone is found there is something odd or at least remains of a now extinct race/people. That was merely a tool to get to the point that there could be a huge chunk of that stone in the Lands of Always Winter/The Heart of Winter which is the source of the Others magic similarily to Asshai and the Heart of Shadow.

No, I didn't mean that meteor. I just had the idea, that that greasy stone could be from a meteorite since it's found all over Planetos, yet no one knows where it came from. So it could have bursted in the atmosphere and surfaced all over Planetos. Or it may be parts of the second moon of Planetos from the Dothraki legend. Just speculating what the source of magic could be and thus the source of the Others we were talking about.

heh, would a sci-fi idea be out of the question here..?

could the Heart Of (insert whatever) BE the fallen meteorite? if there was such? could the first men have touched such a meteorite, gaining the powers of Other?

[Blazfemur]

life pays for life. could it be draining it from existing peoples, and granting it to Others?

meh, thats too toooooooooooooooooo out there

[Blazfemur]

then again, look at Stannis' degradation.

[Barri_The_Bold]

Now you are just blocking off, like others do with your theory :P I admit I'm just speculating and it's crackpot, but doesn't every theory start at that point?

I'm merely trying to see the bigger picture that connects all this but of course I might be wrong.

Fact is we don't know anything about the Heart of Winter so we can only speculate and this is my speculation. And we hardly now anything about Others either, so all we can do is build theories upon bits and pieces that can collaps anytime until we know what GRRM intends to do.

[Durran Durrandon]

So, as a related question, what do you think Ice-Melisandre's motives are? Or -- just in general -- the motives of the Others?

I've thought of a thousand reasons why the Others might be mustering now, but nothing seems to fit. Because lots of big events have happened, but the Others never responded (like the extinction of dragons).

And at the same time, they were encountered before many big unique world events -- before the return of dragons, before the Starks left Winterfell, before the War of Five Kings, etc.

Unless it takes them decades to start moving, I'm really at a loss for what draws them south. Winter? Winter's never drawn them down. The imminent Long Night? Perhaps, but then you get into a debate about what's causing the new Long Night and why the Others feel compelled to spread throughout the land when it falls.

Going to the text, I am inclined to look at the stated hiatus if the Red Priests to infer the goals of the Others.

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned... and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end... death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn..." (ADWD 308)

They want eternal life , to triumph over light, and to bring a winter that will never end. Both sides fight for their version of heaven. Either will actually bring about a nightmarish hellscape if they succeed.

[Associate Maester]

Going to the text, I am inclined to look at the stated hiatus if the Red Priests to infer the goals of the Others.

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned... and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end... death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn..." (ADWD 308)

They want eternal life , to triumph over light, and to bring a winter that will never end. Both sides fight for their version of heaven. Either will actually bring about a nightmarish hellscape if they succeed.

What's interesting to me about that passage is this is the first we've heard anyone from the Red Faith talk about an eschatological re-making and re-ordering of the world. Melisandre notably doesn't talk about this. She doesn't say that stopping the Great Other (in this case she interprets the White Walkers to be his children) will bring about a glorious new Planetos.