One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[ummester]

Or on opposite sides, although I don't hope so. They're both not my favorite characters (Hail Jon Targaryen, the one true king of Westeros) but I don't want to see them fighting each other either.

Regarding the parallels, it really seems like they're aiming for the same result only from different angles. But I think Bran is (or will be) far ahead of Dany, since she never touched Shade of the Evening again or pursued magical abilities in any way. Bran taught himsef the warging, learned about greenseing from Jojen and is going to be apprentice of Bloodraven, for now the most powerful greenseer alive. Way to go Dany! So I wonder if we're really heading that direction, because I don't see Dany learning how to use magic in the near future. She'll probably eventually have to to fully control her dragons, but Bran will be far more advanced by then and damn, he's pretty good already!

Perhaps Dany and Bran will serve Jon's cause. Song of Ice and Fire being Jon (a child of ice and fire) uniting the child of ice (Bran) and fire (Dany) to a common cause.

I hope the cause is aligned with the Others, still.

[Durran Durrandon]

Very nice, OP. A few weeks ago I argued over in Heresy that Ice Magic and Fire Magic/Shadow Magic/Red Magic (whatever you want to call R'hllorism with the side of Shadowbinding) are two sides of the same coin - mirror twins, more or less, that sprung from a common magical "parent" - and that blood/essence sustains both types of magic. They're opposing but related, which is why Mel's magic grows stronger at the Wall...which seems like a total contradiction unless you consider it as her being closer to her "source". Now that all of the old powers are awakening everywhere, I would love to know if Mel's power also increases the closer she gets to Stygai, The Heart of Shadow.

Anyway, I like the exploration of the ice transformation and of the NQ birthing icebabies in the manner of Mel birthing shadowbabies. Much food for thought.

Actually, she directly states that she is more powerful at the v Wall than even Ashaii, implying that she was more powerful at Ashaii than anywhere else she had been prior to traveling to the Wall. So I would say you are absolutely correct that she is more powerful when she is closer to the Heart of Shadow, just as she is more powerful when she is near the Heart of Winter.

[Durran Durrandon]

Re these parallels, seeing them together, it immediately makes me think that Bran and Dany will end up being kind of dipolar servants to the same cause.

Or on opposite sides, although I don't hope so. They're both not my favorite characters (Hail Jon Targaryen, the one true king of Westeros) but I don't want to see them fighting each other either.

Regarding the parallels, it really seems like they're aiming for the same result only from different angles. But I think Bran is (or will be) far ahead of Dany, since she never touched Shade of the Evening again or pursued magical abilities in any way. Bran taught himsef the warging, learned about greenseing from Jojen and is going to be apprentice of Bloodraven, for now the most powerful greenseer alive. Way to go Dany! So I wonder if we're really heading that direction, because I don't see Dany learning how to use magic in the near future. She'll probably eventually have to to fully control her dragons, but Bran will be far more advanced by then and damn, he's pretty good already!

Well , Bran has accepted Bloodraven as a teacher. Daenerys rejected the House of the Undying . . . after they tried to eat her head. So I think the parallel had more to do with the types of magic than the character paths.

[Equilibrium]

Great OP, I've been invested in the idea of Others as humans, I thought of them as ice Valyrians, with the Worldbook we can say ice GeoDawnians, they simply used magic and adapted to the Long Night and cold, LN made Others not other way around. I also thought of the dualism of ice and fire, and parallels, great catch with Mel, I admit it would not cross my mind to look in that direction.

If you are interested some of my musings are here, from long time six months ago http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117816-night-king-snow-queen-and-ice-dragon/

I don't think there are GO or R'hllor, as Stan said " High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men." I think that could be said for ice, fire and all other types of magic.

[RobOsevens]

I am pretty neutral on the blood magic position. My gut tells me thst blood is used as a magic power multiplier in all the magics, should the paticular practitioner choose to cross that line.

What we can say is that we have no evidence of its use in ice magic.

Ya that is the what I was trying to say DD, you just did it better... thanks.

As for no evidence in ice magic we really don't have any evidence of ice magic in use ... I mean we have seen wights but not how they are made or how the Others control them or what they do with Craster's boys either.

There are also implications of sacrifices to Weirwoods

[Durran Durrandon]

There are also implications of sacrifices to Weirwoods

True, though we have seen one sacrifice to a Weirwood tree, presumably by some of the First Men, in Bran's vision, we don't have any indication that activated any magic as opposed to just being an empty human sacrifice.

[RobOsevens]

DD,

I just used the Weirwood implications because it potentially gives the Weirwood's ties to blood magic. We know Mel uses blood magic, we know there is power in blood.

We know nothing of ice magic but we are starting to get a peak into CotF magic or weirwood magic which may involve blood magic.

I think it is further evidence for what we both think, that"blood is used as a magic power multiplier in all the magics"

[LmL]

Nice job Durran D, I like this. Something like this has always been in the back of my mind for the Others - specifically that they were a group of humans who discovered the magical source that is the Heart of Winter and were transformed into the first Others. It's a bit like the Valyrians discovering dragons living in the 14 flames and somehow learning the magic to control them, and in the process they themselves seem to have been transformed (blood of the dragon) although not as much as Melissandre or the Others themselves.

I've got some exciting stuff about the heart of winter and the heart of shadow in my next post, set to go out today or tomorrow, which I think you'll enjoy.

I wonder if Mel is actually undergoing a significant transformation in this scene (where she has the fire in her and bleeds black blood like demons and dragons). It's never occurred to me that she was, but rather just manifesting her freaky shadow fire magic in a stronger way because of the proximity to a hinge of the world, but the idea she is actually progressing to the next level of fire-magery is quite interesting.

The black blood is a real sign she is not human any more. No eating and sleeping, extended life and youthfulness (not just a glamour, she rides horses) and black blood like that of dragons and demons. What's going on here? She is becoming more and more of an opposite of an Other. Beric is approximately equal to Coldhands, a reanimated corpse that still retains independent thought - but Mel is something else entirely.

That one beautiful passage from TID has tipped me over the edge, I have to go read it. I for one think that George is hiding clues in places like the TWOAIF and even the Ice Dragon. I don't think he's concerned about canon, but rather writing mysteries for people to solve. He makes some of them quite difficult.

Glad you are churning out the interesting material my good fellow. Another home run.

Now go back and fix your typos / bold / italics / quotations mistakes. Just a couple of tiny ones. :)

[LmL]

DD,

I just used the Weirwood implications because it potentially gives the Weirwood's ties to blood magic. We know Mel uses blood magic, we know there is power in blood.

We know nothing of ice magic but we are starting to get a peak into CotF magic or weirwood magic which may involve blood magic.

I think it is further evidence for what we both think, that"blood is used as a magic power multiplier in all the magics"

I agree that blood magic seems to be used in various types of magic. Certainly fire magic and earth (cotf) magic. Ice magic, we really haven't seen much of. Weirwoods are earth magic - they used to grow all over Westeros, not just in the north, and besides, all plants and animals are part of earth, not ice. The CotF magic is earth, not ice, so their blood magic should not be connected to ice magic.

Water magic has no blood connection that we know of - the Rhoynar aren't said to have used sacrifice to power their magic.

I believe Euron does sacrifice people to make favorable winds though, which would mean storm (wind) magic has an element of blood sacrifice. And yes, Euron has turned his back on the Drownded God, serving Storm and Shadow.

Shadow is another one which seems tied to both ice and fire. Essentially, I think ice and fire both have elements of light, darkness, and shadow to them.

[Durran Durrandon]

I've got some exciting stuff about the heart of winter and the heart of shadow in my next post, set to go out today or tomorrow, which I think you'll enjoy.

Looking forward to it.

[Durran Durrandon]

Shadow is another one which seems tied to both ice and fire. Essentially, I think ice and fire both have elements of light, darkness, and shadow to them.

Mithras threw out this quote the other day. I think it applies.

“Up and down,” Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, “then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran.”

“Yesterday you said you loved them.”

“Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.”

Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.”

“Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

“Because they’re different ,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.”

“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.”

“One,” his sister agreed, “but over wrinkled.” (SoS 368)

[LmL]

Looking forward to it.

It's everything I can figure out about the Great Empire of the Dawn.

It's quite long. :)

And I'm not sorry. Woo!

Kidding aside, it is quite exhaustive, but it's all very exciting, to me anyway. This one has less astronomy and more pseudo-historical detective work, but the GEotD is so central to much of how my astronomy theory plays out that I thought it was time to conclusively prove their existence and discern everything we can about their culture. Honestly, I'm tempted to break it up and make it it's own series, apart from 'Astronomy of Planetos,' although they would be very interdependent. I'll probably just leave it as part of the astronomy series.

Anyway, I really love your post here, I think it's the most well developed exploration of the idea that the original Others were humans who discovered some kind of ice magic, and I liked that you used to the contrast with Melissandre to illuminate what may be going on with the Others.

I will say that I've always taken "sacrificing to the Others" to mean doing what Craster does - giving your male babies to the Others to be turned. I always thought that's what was going on, even before the NK TV episode. Anyway, the NK was "later found to have been sacrificing to the Others" (paraphrasing), and I took that to mean he was having children with a hybrid other woman and giving the babies to the Others. The door below the Nightfort would be the door built so that bewitched Black Brothers can carry the babies to the Others. I like the hypothesis that the NK was doing this to uphold a pact with the Others, just as Craster appears to be doing (he gives them sons, they leave him alone - that's what ancient Westeros wanted - to be left alone). I've always assumed, as you do, that the Nights Queen wasn't an Other, but some sort of turned human or hybrid Other - otherwise I don't see it working, the sex or the babies. The connection to the barrow King is intersting (TWOIAF suggests the NQ was a barrow King daughter). Thinking of her as a kind of "blue priestess" is interesting - someone with an agenda, like Mel, who is willing to use herself and others (pun intended) to achieve it.

[LmL]

Mithras threw out this quote the other day. I think it applies. “Up and down,” Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, “then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran.”

“Yesterday you said you loved them.”

“Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.”

Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.”

“Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

“Because they’re different ,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.”

“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.”

“One,” his sister agreed, “but over wrinkled.” (SoS 368)

Ah that's a great one for me! Thanks Durran D and Mithras!

[Barr1stanTheBold]

Aw man!!! You spoil the ICE DRAGON for me!!!

Just kidding....great theory overall. Stuff about Mel.....top notch

[Durran Durrandon]

Aw man!!! You spoil the ICE DRAGON for me!!!

Just kidding....great theory overall. Stuff about Mel.....top notch

Sorry about that. I didn't tell you how it ends. . .

[Durran Durrandon]

Well thought-out theory. I'm curious though: do you see Melisandre sacrificing herself for Jon? She still thinks Stannis is AAR or do you think Stannis dies early on in TWOW and Mel sees it in the flames and then throws in her lot with Jon? I do think Jon is saved somehow though. This gives me something more to think about, thanks OP!

I think the lives of the likes of Bowen Mars, Queen Selyse, Shireen, and Melisandre are hanging by a thread. It is likely that we will see Val will l lead the wildlings in some action against them. We will see if Melisandre is powerful enough to defend herself. If not, she might find herself involuntarily sacrificed.

Or, she might be able to head off an uprising with her influential manner and may sacrfice herself in much the manner you are suggesting, when it all becomes obvious to her. We will see.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Best. Thread title. EVER.

And I totally agree with everything, though I have a quibble with a theme I'm seeing in the comments.

From my perspective, Mel's smoking black blood is actually proof that she's still somewhat human, her body operating according to normal principals. Amenorhea is one of the first things that happens to a woman who's body is shutting down in any way, due to malnutrition or almost anything else. Fertility cycles are delicate like that. And black blood is actually quite normal during regular menstruation--though it's usually not smoking. The fact that Mel still gets her period, even in a rather light and smoking form, seems to indicate that her humanity has been subverted rather than extinguished. She probably is slowly transitioning into a non-human fire-magic creature, but the process is not complete.

If she's been a priestess for many years but hasn't fully converted yet, I do wonder what implications that has for the timetable of converting a human baby to an "Other" baby. Maybe it happens quicker if you start as an infant? Or maybe it takes a really long time no matter what, as long or longer than an average human lifespan.

Edit: Or maybe full conversion isn't really a thing, maybe Red Priest/Others always remain partly human.

I really hope this whole theory is right, and that we get details about the conversion process for Others and Priests of R'hllor.

[Blazfemur]

there is, no such thing, as a female Other. buy into it. sell it to your friends. pyramid scheme it.

there never was, and there never will be. it goes against the oath.

after much consideration, and while He may have lain with the barrow king's daughter, and thus she could be nicknamed "the corpse queen," after being a gravelord's daughter, she would be human (i.e. daenerys being a 'dragon queen,' sansa a 'wolf queen,' etc)

but no, im going to follow through with the female species cannot inherit the Ice Gift. Which makes the night's watch's claim, a lie. an excuse.

[ummester]

From my perspective, Mel's smoking black blood is actually proof that she's still somewhat human, her body operating according to normal principals. Amenorhea is one of the first things that happens to a woman who's body is shutting down in any way, due to malnutrition or almost anything else. Fertility cycles are delicate like that. And black blood is actually quite normal during regular menstruation--though it's usually not smoking. The fact that Mel still gets her period, even in a rather light and smoking form, seems to indicate that her humanity has been subverted rather than extinguished. She probably is slowly transitioning into a non-human fire-magic creature, but the process is not complete.

I hadn't considered Mel may have been menstruating, I thought it was more general leakage because of the damage to her internals things like birthing shadow babies would have done. Either way, though it may be proof of some humanity hanging on, it could not possibly be classified as a normal humanity :D

I find the best fit for what seems to be happening to Mel some type of possession. She's like Reagan in the Exorcist, if Regan had a working womb and the demon had been hanging around inside her for years.

I am sure, that under her glamor, Mel looks quite horrifying. I'm sure most Shadowbinders do.

As a side not, surely Mel would not have presented a comfortable environment for Stannis' penis :D

[LmL]

there is, no such thing, as a female Other. buy into it. sell it to your friends. pyramid scheme it.

there never was, and there never will be. it goes against the oath.

after much consideration, and while He may have lain with the barrow king's daughter, and thus she could be nicknamed "the corpse queen," after being a gravelord's daughter, she would be human (i.e. daenerys being a 'dragon queen,' sansa a 'wolf queen,' etc)

but no, im going to follow through with the female species cannot inherit the Ice Gift. Which makes the night's watch's claim, a lie. an excuse.

Blazfemur, can you clarify? What is your position exactly regarding female Others, which oath are you referring to, and which NW claim is a lie exactly? I think I might agree with you but I’m a bit confused.